EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
autumnsum said:
The Lucid Air does (according to youtubers testing it) 501 miles at 70mph, this tech will come down to normal cars quite quickly (especially via China).
Is that enough? I remember people saying 300miles would be enough...
It's $71,000.Is that enough? I remember people saying 300miles would be enough...
Not exactly mass market Ford Focus competitior.
M4cruiser said:
autumnsum said:
The Lucid Air does (according to youtubers testing it) 501 miles at 70mph, this tech will come down to normal cars quite quickly (especially via China).
Is that enough? I remember people saying 300miles would be enough...
It's $71,000.Is that enough? I remember people saying 300miles would be enough...
Not exactly mass market Ford Focus competitior.
The Model 3 RWD already averages 4+ miles/kWh but is range limited by only having a battery half the size of the Lucid and costing a third of the price.
Rusty Old-Banger said:
cj2013 said:
JNW1 said:
IMO the widespread adoption of EV's needs two things:
1. Cars that are affordable for the majority.
Do you think there's that much of a dichotomy here between EVs and ICE/PHEV?1. Cars that are affordable for the majority.
The Ford Focus (arguably the 'council estate' car of choice, for stereotypes) starts at £28,500 now. Is that any more unaffordable than the equivalent EVs these days?
SWoll said:
The 500+ miles variant is $110k and achieves that number due to having a huge 112kWh battery pack. Has very little to do with tech and more to do with capacity and perfect testing conditions.
The Model 3 RWD already averages 4+ miles/kWh but is range limited by only having a battery half the size of the Lucid and costing a third of the price.
Has very little to do with the tech? So you don't consider a drag coefficient of 0.197 a technological achievement and contributing to it's above average efficiency (for the size of car)?.The Model 3 RWD already averages 4+ miles/kWh but is range limited by only having a battery half the size of the Lucid and costing a third of the price.
We are currently looking at leasing a Cupra born. £390 a month offset with a £200pm fuel saving whilst charging at home.
If the fuel saving was not 50% of the cost, we wouldn’t bother.
Plus we have a diesel for any longer journeys. We need two cars regardless due to where we live and working patterns so seems the best of both worlds.
Doing the lease thing for 3 years as we then just hand it back and if it doesn’t work for us, we just lease or buy an ICE car once the born goes back.
If the fuel saving was not 50% of the cost, we wouldn’t bother.
Plus we have a diesel for any longer journeys. We need two cars regardless due to where we live and working patterns so seems the best of both worlds.
Doing the lease thing for 3 years as we then just hand it back and if it doesn’t work for us, we just lease or buy an ICE car once the born goes back.
Wagonwheel555 said:
We are currently looking at leasing a Cupra born. £390 a month offset with a £200pm fuel saving whilst charging at home.
If the fuel saving was not 50% of the cost, we wouldn’t bother.
Plus we have a diesel for any longer journeys. We need two cars regardless due to where we live and working patterns so seems the best of both worlds.
Doing the lease thing for 3 years as we then just hand it back and if it doesn’t work for us, we just lease or buy an ICE car once the born goes back.
That's exactly how I'd expect most people evaluate the options and make the choice, apart from the type of people at either extreme of the discussion on this thread of course!If the fuel saving was not 50% of the cost, we wouldn’t bother.
Plus we have a diesel for any longer journeys. We need two cars regardless due to where we live and working patterns so seems the best of both worlds.
Doing the lease thing for 3 years as we then just hand it back and if it doesn’t work for us, we just lease or buy an ICE car once the born goes back.
Our situation was very similar to yours but with much lower mileage so we went for petrol this time for two years, but could be either next time.
Wagonwheel555 said:
We are currently looking at leasing a Cupra born. £390 a month offset with a £200pm fuel saving whilst charging at home.
If the fuel saving was not 50% of the cost, we wouldn’t bother.
Plus we have a diesel for any longer journeys. We need two cars regardless due to where we live and working patterns so seems the best of both worlds.
Doing the lease thing for 3 years as we then just hand it back and if it doesn’t work for us, we just lease or buy an ICE car once the born goes back.
Can I ask where you got that lease deal with that monthly mileage to save £200 a month on fuel? If the fuel saving was not 50% of the cost, we wouldn’t bother.
Plus we have a diesel for any longer journeys. We need two cars regardless due to where we live and working patterns so seems the best of both worlds.
Doing the lease thing for 3 years as we then just hand it back and if it doesn’t work for us, we just lease or buy an ICE car once the born goes back.
charltjr said:
High public charging costs are a big barrier IMO. The rates soared when electricity prices went up, but haven’t yet come down.
Tesla manage to do under 50p per kw/h even for non-Tesla charging at their superchargers, why can’t the others. That’s a market which needs disruption.
Our local supermarket is 98p for a lousy 50kw charger. It is a Waitrose mind you, premium middle class electricity no doubt
The key is that for the next decade or so it's still just going to be people who have home charging and predominantly use home charging who will represent the logical buying market for EVs. Tesla manage to do under 50p per kw/h even for non-Tesla charging at their superchargers, why can’t the others. That’s a market which needs disruption.
Our local supermarket is 98p for a lousy 50kw charger. It is a Waitrose mind you, premium middle class electricity no doubt
Edited by charltjr on Monday 6th May 11:36
It is then their slow but increasing demand needs that will slowly expand the remote charging market and start not just making it viable but needing to compete against each other.
For those who would have to use third party charging all the time they will just have to be patient and sit tight while others create the infrastructure they will need.
The reality is that not everyone can have an EV today. Most people will just have to wait. Which is hardly a chore unless someone is one of those people who doesn't like a lovely smelly, inefficient, noisy petrol engine and craves having the latest must have object. To be honest, I'm not sure I really care if people really want an EV now but can't have one. It's not exactly a crippling life issue.
tamore said:
this is absolutely bang on. the charger owners must have already made their capital outlay back at those rates. needs regulating, but like everything else there is none. profiteering is rife in all sectors and it needs controlling somehow
Not really. It's still rubbish business when you factor in the set up costs, operating costs, energy costs and then the really rubbish client flow. A unit can sit there not generating revenue for hours in end and can only handle one customer transaction at a time. That's something that will steadily resolve over time as client numbers slowly continue to expand etc.
The one core issue is actually how the transaction to the end retail consumer currently works. At the moment the owner of the charger can legally place themselves as a principal in the sale between the energy company and the consumer. This adds taxes and costs that shouldn't be there. Eventually, they will need to be legally forced by the regulator out of acting as principal and be moved to an agent role where the consumer is buying direct from the energy company and the charger owner is just levying a commission and a comm that is also regulated. And the consumer purchase must be priced at their domestic rate + comm or else as those who cannot charge at home on a domestic tariff who will eventually be required to switch from ICE in the 2040s will be at a regressive disadvantage.
But the key is to simply wait. There's zero rush to switch to EV and someone would have to be an absolute fool to be wanting an EV before they can easily use it.
And should someone be unfortunate enough to have got themselves trapped on the new car debt carrousel then they do have up to 14 years to get out of it, which really ought to be long enough?
DonkeyApple said:
Not really. It's still rubbish business when you factor in the set up costs, operating costs, energy costs and then the really rubbish client flow. A unit can sit there not generating revenue for hours in end and can only handle one customer transaction at a time.
That's something that will steadily resolve over time as client numbers slowly continue to expand etc.
The one core issue is actually how the transaction to the end retail consumer currently works. At the moment the owner of the charger can legally place themselves as a principal in the sale between the energy company and the consumer. This adds taxes and costs that shouldn't be there. Eventually, they will need to be legally forced by the regulator out of acting as principal and be moved to an agent role where the consumer is buying direct from the energy company and the charger owner is just levying a commission and a comm that is also regulated. And the consumer purchase must be priced at their domestic rate + comm or else as those who cannot charge at home on a domestic tariff who will eventually be required to switch from ICE in the 2040s will be at a regressive disadvantage.
But the key is to simply wait. There's zero rush to switch to EV and someone would have to be an absolute fool to be wanting an EV before they can easily use it.
And should someone be unfortunate enough to have got themselves trapped on the new car debt carrousel then they do have up to 14 years to get out of it, which really ought to be long enough?
none of this explains why tesla can do it so much cheaper.That's something that will steadily resolve over time as client numbers slowly continue to expand etc.
The one core issue is actually how the transaction to the end retail consumer currently works. At the moment the owner of the charger can legally place themselves as a principal in the sale between the energy company and the consumer. This adds taxes and costs that shouldn't be there. Eventually, they will need to be legally forced by the regulator out of acting as principal and be moved to an agent role where the consumer is buying direct from the energy company and the charger owner is just levying a commission and a comm that is also regulated. And the consumer purchase must be priced at their domestic rate + comm or else as those who cannot charge at home on a domestic tariff who will eventually be required to switch from ICE in the 2040s will be at a regressive disadvantage.
But the key is to simply wait. There's zero rush to switch to EV and someone would have to be an absolute fool to be wanting an EV before they can easily use it.
And should someone be unfortunate enough to have got themselves trapped on the new car debt carrousel then they do have up to 14 years to get out of it, which really ought to be long enough?
we aren't going to see regiulation, so competition is the only hope. will be interesting to see where sainsburys pitch their rapid EV charging.
tamore said:
none of this explains why tesla can do it so much cheaper.
we aren't going to see regiulation, so competition is the only hope. will be interesting to see where sainsburys pitch their rapid EV charging.
Yes it does. Shareholder subsidy followed by economies of scale. Nor can you actually see in their accounts if they're yet turning a profit from the activity, what we do know is that the losses got large enough that they had to start charging and then opening up their chargers to none Tesla customers. Best guess is that it is still an area they're losing money on. They basically sell energy at a loss because it allows them to sell more cars at a profit. we aren't going to see regiulation, so competition is the only hope. will be interesting to see where sainsburys pitch their rapid EV charging.
Sainsbury's will be slightly similar in that they will consider whether to take less revenue or even run at a loss if it brings in more customers who'll just take 30 mins of electricity but spend a large amount in a Sainsbury shop rather than a Tesco one.
These are more 'destination' chargers anyway and with those the core business uses them to lure in more customers.
We will see regulation. The discussion re principal v agent is already taking place. The reason being that residential street chargers won't ever be economically viable as obviously they'd only see one customer a day, that customer might not be buying for more than an hour but then sat there all night and possibly all day locking out any other customer. People without driveways will need that wider network by the start of the 2040s and you can't have the charger owners still sitting in the middle as corporate energy vendors, they must be switched to being brokers.
LivLL said:
Wagonwheel555 said:
We are currently looking at leasing a Cupra born. £390 a month offset with a £200pm fuel saving whilst charging at home.
If the fuel saving was not 50% of the cost, we wouldn’t bother.
Plus we have a diesel for any longer journeys. We need two cars regardless due to where we live and working patterns so seems the best of both worlds.
Doing the lease thing for 3 years as we then just hand it back and if it doesn’t work for us, we just lease or buy an ICE car once the born goes back.
Can I ask where you got that lease deal with that monthly mileage to save £200 a month on fuel? If the fuel saving was not 50% of the cost, we wouldn’t bother.
Plus we have a diesel for any longer journeys. We need two cars regardless due to where we live and working patterns so seems the best of both worlds.
Doing the lease thing for 3 years as we then just hand it back and if it doesn’t work for us, we just lease or buy an ICE car once the born goes back.
DonkeyApple said:
Yes it does. Shareholder subsidy followed by economies of scale. Nor can you actually see in their accounts if they're yet turning a profit from the activity, what we do know is that the losses got large enough that they had to start charging and then opening up their chargers to none Tesla customers. Best guess is that it is still an area they're losing money on. They basically sell energy at a loss because it allows them to sell more cars at a profit.
Sainsbury's will be slightly similar in that they will consider whether to take less revenue or even run at a loss if it brings in more customers who'll just take 30 mins of electricity but spend a large amount in a Sainsbury shop rather than a Tesco one.
These are more 'destination' chargers anyway and with those the core business uses them to lure in more customers.
We will see regulation. The discussion re principal v agent is already taking place. The reason being that residential street chargers won't ever be economically viable as obviously they'd only see one customer a day, that customer might not be buying for more than an hour but then sat there all night and possibly all day locking out any other customer. People without driveways will need that wider network by the start of the 2040s and you can't have the charger owners still sitting in the middle as corporate energy vendors, they must be switched to being brokers.
we're yet to see how sainsburys are going to set their charging stations up. if they are a row of chargers in an existing carpark, or more of a petrol station setup.Sainsbury's will be slightly similar in that they will consider whether to take less revenue or even run at a loss if it brings in more customers who'll just take 30 mins of electricity but spend a large amount in a Sainsbury shop rather than a Tesco one.
These are more 'destination' chargers anyway and with those the core business uses them to lure in more customers.
We will see regulation. The discussion re principal v agent is already taking place. The reason being that residential street chargers won't ever be economically viable as obviously they'd only see one customer a day, that customer might not be buying for more than an hour but then sat there all night and possibly all day locking out any other customer. People without driveways will need that wider network by the start of the 2040s and you can't have the charger owners still sitting in the middle as corporate energy vendors, they must be switched to being brokers.
tesla target in 2022 was for 10% margin on superchargers. no idea if this has been achieved.
whatever happens, 80pkWh isn't going to help the transition. rapids were 35p in september 2021, and presumably they were making enough to cover costs at least at that time.
LivLL said:
Can I ask where you got that lease deal with that monthly mileage to save £200 a month on fuel?
Savings also depend on economy of your current car (obviously). A guy at work has a mapped Megane 225 as a daily that does just over 20mpg. 800 miles per month (10k per year) costs him around £280. The same miles cost me £22. Add on insurance, servicing, tyres, repairs, breakdown etc which are all included in my SS car, and the actual monthly costs are going to be around the same for an 18 year old £4k car as a brand new £65k Merc. And yes, I know many on here would prefer the RS Megane - I’ve had 5 and love them myself, and yes I know SS is not available to everyone. But even just the fuel savings give you over £250 to put to a car, then repairs, MOT another £30-£40. You could be in a brand new car for that, all depends what you want from it.
tamore said:
we're yet to see how sainsburys are going to set their charging stations up. if they are a row of chargers in an existing carpark, or more of a petrol station setup.
tesla target in 2022 was for 10% margin on superchargers. no idea if this has been achieved.
whatever happens, 80pkWh isn't going to help the transition. rapids were 35p in september 2021, and presumably they were making enough to cover costs at least at that time.
I've come across Sainsbury's chargers in London. 12 of them in a row within the existing car park. Not petrol station style and not covered. At least the bays are wider than normal though.tesla target in 2022 was for 10% margin on superchargers. no idea if this has been achieved.
whatever happens, 80pkWh isn't going to help the transition. rapids were 35p in september 2021, and presumably they were making enough to cover costs at least at that time.
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