The decline of manual values
Discussion
driveaway said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Have you got any actual evidence that auto only licence holders have a worse accident record in automatics than manual licence holders have in automatics?
Do you have a full motorcycle licence? Or a full Class 1 articulated lorry licence? If not, how do you feel about the view that if you don't hold one or both of those, you shouldn't be able to drive a car?
I was referring to cars, not other vehicles, besides that my point was not specifically related to accidents, I mean the general driving.Do you have a full motorcycle licence? Or a full Class 1 articulated lorry licence? If not, how do you feel about the view that if you don't hold one or both of those, you shouldn't be able to drive a car?
Many young drivers (I am a relatively young driver, no white hairs yet....) friends of fine included, who only can drive automatics, feel as if they just got a licence to zip around in a go kart on the streets (or at least they act that way), but ones that drive manuals seem to be a bit more mature about things..
They have more control on their car, and control their speed, USUALLY in a more civilised manner...
You come across as a bit of a tit. "Look at me, I have a manual licence, I'm superior to all you auto licence holders". Well I have an full bike licence too, and I know many bike riders think that having a full motorcycle licence makes you a better car driver, and car only drivers really haven't got a clue. No matter where you are in life, they'll always be someone better qualified who can look down on you and sneer. So don't be one of those sneering types.
Looking at it logically, I could imagine there being a small statistical skew because some people obtain automatic licences having tried and failed to learn to drive manuals and one has to imagine that those particular people are probably less able drivers overall?
Of course that doesn't mean that the average person who obtained an automatic licence for another reason (which I'm sure is a vast and increasing majority of auto licence holders) is going to be a better or worse driver than the average manual licence holder. They may even end up better on average simply because they are able to focus their learning on fewer skills, who knows? Given how poorly most people seem to drive anyway, I'm sure any such correlation is a drop in the ocean beside the general level of laziness and incompetence people seem to develop over time anyway.
Ultimately I think ability as a road driver comes down to willingness to put in some sort of thought more than anything else.
Of course that doesn't mean that the average person who obtained an automatic licence for another reason (which I'm sure is a vast and increasing majority of auto licence holders) is going to be a better or worse driver than the average manual licence holder. They may even end up better on average simply because they are able to focus their learning on fewer skills, who knows? Given how poorly most people seem to drive anyway, I'm sure any such correlation is a drop in the ocean beside the general level of laziness and incompetence people seem to develop over time anyway.
Ultimately I think ability as a road driver comes down to willingness to put in some sort of thought more than anything else.
kambites said:
Looking at it logically, I could imagine there being a small statistical skew because some people obtain automatic licences having tried and failed to learn to drive manuals and one has to imagine that those particular people are probably less able drivers overall?
Of course that doesn't mean that the average person who obtained an automatic licence for another reason (which I'm sure is a vast and increasing majority of auto licence holders) is going to be a better or worse driver than the average manual licence holder. They may even end up better on average simply because they are able to focus their learning on fewer skills, who knows? Given how poorly most people seem to drive anyway, I'm sure any such correlation is a drop in the ocean beside the general level of laziness and incompetence people seem to develop over time anyway.
Ultimately I think ability as a road driver comes down to willingness to put in some sort of thought more than anything else.
In the past, people who chose to take an automatic only test woudl have included a larger proportion of people who did not feel confident to learn the additional skills required to drive a manual, people with disabilities making it impossible to drive a manual with three pedals, and probably some people who had failed in a manual and elected to retake in an automatic as they perceived it, rightly or wrongly, to be easier.Of course that doesn't mean that the average person who obtained an automatic licence for another reason (which I'm sure is a vast and increasing majority of auto licence holders) is going to be a better or worse driver than the average manual licence holder. They may even end up better on average simply because they are able to focus their learning on fewer skills, who knows? Given how poorly most people seem to drive anyway, I'm sure any such correlation is a drop in the ocean beside the general level of laziness and incompetence people seem to develop over time anyway.
Ultimately I think ability as a road driver comes down to willingness to put in some sort of thought more than anything else.
In the future, the vast majority of people taking an auto only test will be doing so because they jay don't see the need to learn stick shift. Added to this the once who persist on learning a manual all probably be disproportionately boys (not generally stereotyping, just reflecting reality, what % of PH users are female?) and those that are enthusiastic about driving. I would posit that young enthusiastic drivers are likely to be WORSE in terms of passing the driving test so the statistics may well narrow and even possibly reverse over time.
GravelBen said:
Its a rational argument for people choosing the gearbox that suits their use and preference best. 
Absolutely. And in that there is no "right" or "wrong" answer.I totally love the DCT box in my M2. The ZF8 in my wifes Z4 (and in our previous M140i) was brilliant too. They suit our needs perfectly.
Thats not to say that someone with a manual M2 or whatever dont absolutely love theirs.
GravelBen said:
Which is a point a number of people on this thread have made only to get shouted down by a chorus of 'but automatics are easier and [sometimes] more efficient and [sometimes] faster!'.
No one is shouting anyone down.
If automatic suits you best for a certain example/use case then by all means choose one, but I'm not sure why the automatic evangelists here are so dedicated to trying to convince everyone else to drive an automatic too.
No one is shouting anyone down and there are no automatic evangilists. Just people giving their experience against an underlying insuation that you cant be a real driver if you dont drive a manual, and also pointing out that for the vast bulk of people out there in the real world (not the PH one of Driving Gods, Powerfully Built Company Directors and people who Dominate the Stairs) an auto is likely a much better choice for day to day driving.No one is shouting anyone down.
If automatic suits you best for a certain example/use case then by all means choose one, but I'm not sure why the automatic evangelists here are so dedicated to trying to convince everyone else to drive an automatic too.
GravelBen said:
To get back to the original question of whether manual values will drop relative to autos in future, its hard to say - here in NZ manuals are already much harder to find than autos for many vehicles (partly due to decades of the second-hand market being flooded with Japanese imports) and tend to demand higher second-hand prices than automatic as enough people want manuals that supply seems to be more limited than demand.
I would say here in the UK manual variants of performance cars will likely retain their values well - due to the low numbers being sold new now and the reasonable demand on the used car market.On cooking variants, i wouldnt say already auto variants make more - as has been the case for some time now and thats likely to remain the case.
I dont forsee any sudden or massive drop in cooking variant values and i think over time manual variants of performance car will hold firm / even maybe be worth more, relatively speaking.
kambites said:
It's certain a rational argument in favour of the existence of the manual gearbox. It's obviously not (and wasn't meant to be) a rational argument for everything containing a manual gearbox. As I said above, I think for 95+% of use-cases, total automation should be the end-goal. After all who wants to control the steering or acceleration/braking in traffic or on the motorway either?
Ultimately cars are devices for getting people and things form A to B and the "best" car will the one which does that with the minimum effort and hence the minimum input from the user. I think anyone who wants anything else from a car is very much in a minority but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that they, economics of production permitting, shouldn't be catered for by the market.
These cars have been around for decades. They are called taxis. Just get in and it’s all done for you Ultimately cars are devices for getting people and things form A to B and the "best" car will the one which does that with the minimum effort and hence the minimum input from the user. I think anyone who wants anything else from a car is very much in a minority but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that they, economics of production permitting, shouldn't be catered for by the market.
Edited by kambites on Monday 20th May 08:28
kambites said:
It's certain a rational argument in favour of the existence of the manual gearbox. It's obviously not (and wasn't meant to be) a rational argument for everything containing a manual gearbox. As I said above, I think for 95+% of use-cases, total automation should be the end-goal. After all who wants to control the steering or acceleration/braking in traffic or on the motorway either?
Ultimately cars are devices for getting people and things form A to B and the "best" car will the one which does that with the minimum effort and hence the minimum input from the user. I think anyone who wants anything else from a car is very much in a minority but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that they, economics of production permitting, shouldn't be catered for by the market.
EVs are a great example of this as well I reckon. The majority aren't interested in cars or driving, so anything that makes it easier will be popular I think. Ultimately cars are devices for getting people and things form A to B and the "best" car will the one which does that with the minimum effort and hence the minimum input from the user. I think anyone who wants anything else from a car is very much in a minority but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that they, economics of production permitting, shouldn't be catered for by the market.
Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
Modern DSG automatics are that good. I see absolutely no reason or benefit to go back to owning a manual. Coupled with an automatic handbrake, they’re easy to drive on urban roads and stop start traffic.
I don’t even notice when my Golf DSG changes gear and I can keep my foot on the accelerator without lifting off. It’s like driving with one infinite gear. Criticism of autos being slow with clunky gear changes are decades out of date.
Interestingly the vans at my work have a manual gearbox. And despite owning a Golf DSG for 3 years, I can still seamlessly change between the 2 and drive a manual without thinking about it.
I don’t even notice when my Golf DSG changes gear and I can keep my foot on the accelerator without lifting off. It’s like driving with one infinite gear. Criticism of autos being slow with clunky gear changes are decades out of date.
Interestingly the vans at my work have a manual gearbox. And despite owning a Golf DSG for 3 years, I can still seamlessly change between the 2 and drive a manual without thinking about it.
Edited by Mr Miata on Monday 20th May 09:52
Edited by Mr Miata on Monday 20th May 09:58
cerb4.5lee said:
EVs are a great example of this as well I reckon. The majority aren't interested in cars or driving, so anything that makes it easier will be popular I think.
Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
The vast majority dont want to do that though. And those that do either wont have an EV or it'll be the DD and they'll have a second or third car as the fun car.Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
For me, my M2 DCT is the best of both worlds. Its an auto when its doing daily duties (but still puts a smile on my face even when just nipping out for a pint of milk), but is also a hoot when roads permit and i flick it in to Sport mode and use the paddles.
Deep Thought said:
The vast majority dont want to do that though. And those that do either wont have an EV or it'll be the DD and they'll have a second or third car as the fun car.
For me, my M2 DCT is the best of both worlds. Its an auto when its doing daily duties (but still puts a smile on my face even when just nipping out for a pint of milk), but is also a hoot when roads permit and i flick it in to Sport mode and use the paddles.
Yes and I should really get involved with this paddle lark I reckon. I've done 26k miles now in the F82 M4 with the DCT, however I always just leave it in D though and I never use the paddles/gearstick. For me, my M2 DCT is the best of both worlds. Its an auto when its doing daily duties (but still puts a smile on my face even when just nipping out for a pint of milk), but is also a hoot when roads permit and i flick it in to Sport mode and use the paddles.
I do enjoy the feeling of full throttle when I just stamp on it in D though, so that keeps me entertained. Plus I have 2 other cars with 3 pedal manuals, so I don't feel like I'm missing out by just driving it like a slusher auto in the M4 to be honest.
Mr Miata said:
Modern DSG automatics are that good. I see absolutely no reason or benefit to go back to owning a manual. Coupled with an automatic handbrake, they’re easy to drive on urban roads and stop start traffic.
I don’t even notice when my Golf DSG changes gear and I can keep my foot on the accelerator without lifting off. It’s like driving with one infinite gear. Criticism of autos being slow with clunky gear changes are decades out of date.
Interestingly the vans at my work have a manual gearbox. And despite owning a Golf DSG for 3 years, I can still seamlessly change between the 2 and drive a manual without thinking about it.
I haven't owned a manual car for 10 years, still only takes me about 10 minutes of driving one until I'm used to it again on the odd ocassion I drive one - including trying to heal and toe! I don’t even notice when my Golf DSG changes gear and I can keep my foot on the accelerator without lifting off. It’s like driving with one infinite gear. Criticism of autos being slow with clunky gear changes are decades out of date.
Interestingly the vans at my work have a manual gearbox. And despite owning a Golf DSG for 3 years, I can still seamlessly change between the 2 and drive a manual without thinking about it.
Edited by Mr Miata on Monday 20th May 09:52
Edited by Mr Miata on Monday 20th May 09:58
Will still stall when pulling up to red lights on occassion though.
cerb4.5lee said:
EVs are a great example of this as well I reckon. The majority aren't interested in cars or driving, so anything that makes it easier will be popular I think.
Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
True, but ideally you'd have both, so that faced with the same question on a Monday morning when you want to drive through traffic to work, you aren't forced to suffer the inadequacies of your 3 pedal vehicle. You can like both you know and still be interested in cars and driving?Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
Mr Miata said:
I don’t even notice when my Golf DSG changes gear and I can keep my foot on the accelerator without lifting off. It’s like driving with one infinite gear. Criticism of autos being slow with clunky gear changes are decades out of date.
DSG's are good, very good.not my cup of tea, but good.
Drove to work today with a G50 5 speed box. It probably takes x1000 longer to change gear, and the shift can't be rushed but its part of the whole experience.
You might as well remove noise from all cars,
oh...
740EVTORQUES said:
cerb4.5lee said:
EVs are a great example of this as well I reckon. The majority aren't interested in cars or driving, so anything that makes it easier will be popular I think.
Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
True, but ideally you'd have both, so that faced with the same question on a Monday morning when you want to drive through traffic to work, you aren't forced to suffer the inadequacies of your 3 pedal vehicle. You can like both you know and still be interested in cars and driving?Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
I said it on another thread the other day, and my resentment for EVs comes from the fact that they're killing ICE off, and I'm just not very happy about it to be honest. So I will always see EVs in a negative light I think, plus I personally don't see an EV as being "better" than ICE in the way that a lot of other folk do either.
cerb4.5lee said:
740EVTORQUES said:
cerb4.5lee said:
EVs are a great example of this as well I reckon. The majority aren't interested in cars or driving, so anything that makes it easier will be popular I think.
Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
True, but ideally you'd have both, so that faced with the same question on a Monday morning when you want to drive through traffic to work, you aren't forced to suffer the inadequacies of your 3 pedal vehicle. You can like both you know and still be interested in cars and driving?Imagine waking up on a nice sunny Sunday morning when you just want to go for a drive for the sake of it(where a nice engine and a 3 pedal manual come into their own), and then you saw an EV in your garage, you'd be lower than a dogs paw I reckon.
I said it on another thread the other day, and my resentment for EVs comes from the fact that they're killing ICE off, and I'm just not very happy about it to be honest. So I will always see EVs in a negative light I think, plus I personally don't see an EV as being "better" than ICE in the way that a lot of other folk do either.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
In other words, no, you have no evidence that auto licence holders are anymore of a risk on the road driving autos than manual licence holders driving autos. And no, you don't have a full motorbike licence.
You come across as a bit of a tit. "Look at me, I have a manual licence, I'm superior to all you auto licence holders". Well I have an full bike licence too, and I know many bike riders think that having a full motorcycle licence makes you a better car driver, and car only drivers really haven't got a clue. No matter where you are in life, they'll always be someone better qualified who can look down on you and sneer. So don't be one of those sneering types.
You must be having a bad day!You come across as a bit of a tit. "Look at me, I have a manual licence, I'm superior to all you auto licence holders". Well I have an full bike licence too, and I know many bike riders think that having a full motorcycle licence makes you a better car driver, and car only drivers really haven't got a clue. No matter where you are in life, they'll always be someone better qualified who can look down on you and sneer. So don't be one of those sneering types.
Full of assumptions about someone else and you don't even know me!
My statement was based on my experience, and has nothing to do with my driving capabilities!
I definitely do not hold myself as 'superior', nor the best driver in the world, actually, from your tone of writing, it seems that you think so about yourself!
Just take a deep breath and a chill pill, I didn't attack anyone IN PERTICULAR so don't go and do the same!
kambites said:
Looking at it logically, I could imagine there being a small statistical skew because some people obtain automatic licences having tried and failed to learn to drive manuals and one has to imagine that those particular people are probably less able drivers overall?
Of course that doesn't mean that the average person who obtained an automatic licence for another reason (which I'm sure is a vast and increasing majority of auto licence holders) is going to be a better or worse driver than the average manual licence holder. They may even end up better on average simply because they are able to focus their learning on fewer skills, who knows? Given how poorly most people seem to drive anyway, I'm sure any such correlation is a drop in the ocean beside the general level of laziness and incompetence people seem to develop over time anyway.
Ultimately I think ability as a road driver comes down to willingness to put in some sort of thought more than anything else.
Better put!Of course that doesn't mean that the average person who obtained an automatic licence for another reason (which I'm sure is a vast and increasing majority of auto licence holders) is going to be a better or worse driver than the average manual licence holder. They may even end up better on average simply because they are able to focus their learning on fewer skills, who knows? Given how poorly most people seem to drive anyway, I'm sure any such correlation is a drop in the ocean beside the general level of laziness and incompetence people seem to develop over time anyway.
Ultimately I think ability as a road driver comes down to willingness to put in some sort of thought more than anything else.
I think i'd agree with most of what you said....
TwigtheWonderkid said:
You wouldn't. You'd pass in an auto and get an unrestricted full licence. If you need to drive a manual, no official lessons or test required, you just learn from a family member or friend. This has been the way it works in the USA for ever and it's been just fine.
I wouldn't know how to drive a vintage car. I probably couldn't even work out how to start it. If I ever need to drive one, the owner can teach me what to do.
Haha! I wouldn't know how to drive a vintage car. I probably couldn't even work out how to start it. If I ever need to drive one, the owner can teach me what to do.
A relative of mine went to university in the USA, having learnt to drive in a manual (sorry, "stick shift"). It was commonplace for students to borrow one another's cars to go out in the evening, and fairly commonplace for them to crash them too. She had a very relaxed attitude to allowing anyone who wanted to borrow her car to have it for the evening. It wasn't crashed once.
Though, as none of her friends knew how to drive a manual, it wasn't ever borrowed either.
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