737 max loses window
Discussion
Downfall: The Case Against Boeing on Netflix, was an interesting watch.
I don't know much about the inner workings of the aircraft industry, but it looks like there conflict of interest. Is the FAA independent? As it does not seem to be. If employees have concerns about retaliation for reporting concerns, surely this will happen again.
https://www.boeing.com/principles/safety/caso-repo...
Boeing employees selected as representatives of the FAA perform a critical role in aircraft certification and safety assurance, and the company is working to ensure they are able to perform their delegated duties free from any interference.
Measuring Progress
In May 2022, Boeing commissioned an external company to conduct a survey of the more than 1,000 ODA representatives. Of the 71% of employees who responded to the survey, a significant number have noticed a general improvement in the culture around interference and integrity. Boeing will use these results and conclusions from future surveys to further address specific ODA concerns.
Perceived interference 13.9%
Seeing improvement 49.4%
Have concerns about retaliation for reporting concerns 24.1%
I don't know much about the inner workings of the aircraft industry, but it looks like there conflict of interest. Is the FAA independent? As it does not seem to be. If employees have concerns about retaliation for reporting concerns, surely this will happen again.
https://www.boeing.com/principles/safety/caso-repo...
Boeing employees selected as representatives of the FAA perform a critical role in aircraft certification and safety assurance, and the company is working to ensure they are able to perform their delegated duties free from any interference.
Measuring Progress
In May 2022, Boeing commissioned an external company to conduct a survey of the more than 1,000 ODA representatives. Of the 71% of employees who responded to the survey, a significant number have noticed a general improvement in the culture around interference and integrity. Boeing will use these results and conclusions from future surveys to further address specific ODA concerns.
Perceived interference 13.9%
Seeing improvement 49.4%
Have concerns about retaliation for reporting concerns 24.1%
Teddy Lop said:
You could easily implement vents for pressure equalisation while maintaining security though?
That is what Airbus do on the A350. Maybe because the basic 737 design precedes terrorist-proof cockpit doors it would have been more difficult to implement without substantial redesign of the rear of the cockpit area?Having a whole cockpit door blow open in the event of a depressurisation seems a fairly dangerous thing, as any crew member or someone waiting for the toilet, standing behind it, runs the risk of severe injury if the thing blew open onto them.
colin79666 said:
How long before every Boeing aircraft has to be grounded for an inspection of every single bolt?!
This may seem like overkill, but it's probably the safest thing to do considering Boeing had no idea about these loose bolts in the first place. I for one will avoid flying any 737 Max's (I know it's only the 737-9 that has the issue) till it seems like they are taking it seriously enough.hidetheelephants said:
They've completely forgotten how to build aeroplanes, this is basic stuff; between this and the shambolic KC46 programme the company is a disgrace.
They're "too big to fail" and know it, lurching from one catastrophy to another. US government pours in the $$$$ and refuses to so much as slap wrists. I condone why they want to keep things domestic but they should have leased 50 MRTTs as "interim" just to keep boeing on their toes.I don't even know why European aircraft manufacturers bother to tender US military contracts. Maybe just to troll Boeing. Although Boeing aren't alone in the incompetence, the yanks attempts to build Merlin helicopters is as risable.
And I'm not just yank-bashing.. I know companies like Boeing got to be considered the best for good reason. But try telling me conspiracies don't exist, yes poppet.
Teddy Lop said:
They're "too big to fail" and know it, lurching from one catastrophy to another. US government pours in the $$$$ and refuses to so much as slap wrists. I condone why they want to keep things domestic but they should have leased 50 MRTTs as "interim" just to keep boeing on their toes.
I don't even know why European aircraft manufacturers bother to tender US military contracts. Maybe just to troll Boeing. Although Boeing aren't alone in the incompetence, the yanks attempts to build Merlin helicopters is as risable.
And I'm not just yank-bashing.. I know companies like Boeing got to be considered the best for good reason. But try telling me conspiracies don't exist, yes poppet.
Didn't Airbus initially win the contract for the USAF tanker program with the A330 MRTT, but Boeing threw their toys out of the pram and were then given the job which resulted in the current KC-46 mess.I don't even know why European aircraft manufacturers bother to tender US military contracts. Maybe just to troll Boeing. Although Boeing aren't alone in the incompetence, the yanks attempts to build Merlin helicopters is as risable.
And I'm not just yank-bashing.. I know companies like Boeing got to be considered the best for good reason. But try telling me conspiracies don't exist, yes poppet.
s1962a said:
colin79666 said:
How long before every Boeing aircraft has to be grounded for an inspection of every single bolt?!
This may seem like overkill, but it's probably the safest thing to do considering Boeing had no idea about these loose bolts in the first place. I for one will avoid flying any 737 Max's (I know it's only the 737-9 that has the issue) till it seems like they are taking it seriously enough.There also needs to be an investigation how this was able to occur.
- Was the installer expected to do their own inspection and got called away onto another job partway through?
- Was there a shift change, in which the second shift thought the first shift's trial fit was the finished job?
- Did the inspector not know what he/she was supposed to check, what the correct installation looked like or the correct method and level of locking/torque?
Unbelievably, just a few days ago Boeing was asking the regulators for a safety exemption for their 737 Max 7.
https://interestingengineering.com/culture/boeing-...
https://interestingengineering.com/culture/boeing-...
That's the problem with grandfather rights. Clean sheet design needs to comply to all new rules. Frankenstein monsters of old designs patched up with some digital stuff don't compare.
The 737Max is a Ford Cortina with a Duratec engine, iPad screwed to the dashboard with some self-tappers and acres of fake composite glued to the bumpers. Boeing should have pushed ahead with a brand new design.
The 737Max is a Ford Cortina with a Duratec engine, iPad screwed to the dashboard with some self-tappers and acres of fake composite glued to the bumpers. Boeing should have pushed ahead with a brand new design.
Speed 3 said:
That's the problem with grandfather rights. Clean sheet design needs to comply to all new rules. Frankenstein monsters of old designs patched up with some digital stuff don't compare.
The 737Max is a Ford Cortina with a Duratec engine, iPad screwed to the dashboard with some self-tappers and acres of fake composite glued to the bumpers. Boeing should have pushed ahead with a brand new design.
That's what happens when they got caught napping by Airbus when they made the NEO option for the A320 family.The 737Max is a Ford Cortina with a Duratec engine, iPad screwed to the dashboard with some self-tappers and acres of fake composite glued to the bumpers. Boeing should have pushed ahead with a brand new design.
Speed 3 said:
That's the problem with grandfather rights. Clean sheet design needs to comply to all new rules. Frankenstein monsters of old designs patched up with some digital stuff don't compare.
The 737Max is a Ford Cortina with a Duratec engine, iPad screwed to the dashboard with some self-tappers and acres of fake composite glued to the bumpers. Boeing should have pushed ahead with a brand new design.
A lot of it is about pilots not having to get another type rating. When launched Boeing said that an active 737NG rated pilot would not need any simulator time to fly the 737 Max, only requiring 'Level B' training. This may have been a contributing factor to pilots not being taught to handle faults in the MCAS system.The 737Max is a Ford Cortina with a Duratec engine, iPad screwed to the dashboard with some self-tappers and acres of fake composite glued to the bumpers. Boeing should have pushed ahead with a brand new design.
737 Max Pilot Training Requirements
magpie215 said:
In some respects Boeing may have been better off developing the 757 rather than the 737.
That was my thinking too - but the 757 line was shut down over ten years ago so reinstating it would have been as expensive as a brand new design.And it's still an old style "tin" aeroplane.
magpie215 said:
In some respects Boeing may have been better off developing the 757 rather than the 737.
The 757 production line closed in 2004. Over ten times as many Boeing 737s have been built as 757s, so there were a lot more pilots already rated for the 737, plus the success of the A320NEO caught Boeing napping, so they had to do something with the airframe they had in production if they were to limit the damage to their sales. Boeing was already working on the 'Boeing New Midsize Airplane' (tentatively the 797) as a replacement for the 757 and larger 737s in 2010, until put on hold in 2020.
GliderRider said:
Having a whole cockpit door blow open in the event of a depressurisation seems a fairly dangerous thing, as any crew member or someone waiting for the toilet, standing behind it, runs the risk of severe injury if the thing blew open onto them.
If the decompression is that violent, surely a door blowing open is the least of your worries if you're stood up and not strapped in? 
Hindsight isn't going to help anyone at this point. It looks as though 737-MAX is here to stay. Airbus is sold out into the near future so anyone who wants a new plane soon needs to buy a Boeing.
IMO it's going too far to suggest every bolt must now be questioned. If I've understood correctly these doorways may need to be open for access while the interior of the plane is being installed. Then someone fits the door plug and finally that last bit of interior is finished off. It seems to be an unusual stage of the construction process which "should" be easy to check on existing aircraft and "should" be straightforward to double-check in future builds.
IMO it's going too far to suggest every bolt must now be questioned. If I've understood correctly these doorways may need to be open for access while the interior of the plane is being installed. Then someone fits the door plug and finally that last bit of interior is finished off. It seems to be an unusual stage of the construction process which "should" be easy to check on existing aircraft and "should" be straightforward to double-check in future builds.
s1962a said:
colin79666 said:
How long before every Boeing aircraft has to be grounded for an inspection of every single bolt?!
This may seem like overkill, but it's probably the safest thing to do considering Boeing had no idea about these loose bolts in the first place. I for one will avoid flying any 737 Max's (I know it's only the 737-9 that has the issue) till it seems like they are taking it seriously enough.
magpie215 said:
In some respects Boeing may have been better off developing the 757 rather than the 737.
They would have been better of building a new plane, but on the Netflix documentary they say they didn't want to spend the money, so decided to improve the 737 but even then they didn't want to pay for any additional pilot training so didn't bother telling anyone about MCAS.The wanton greed of these organisations needs reining in.
Panamax said:
Hindsight isn't going to help anyone at this point. It looks as though 737-MAX is here to stay. Airbus is sold out into the near future so anyone who wants a new plane soon needs to buy a Boeing.
IMO it's going too far to suggest every bolt must now be questioned. If I've understood correctly these doorways may need to be open for access while the interior of the plane is being installed. Then someone fits the door plug and finally that last bit of interior is finished off. It seems to be an unusual stage of the construction process which "should" be easy to check on existing aircraft and "should" be straightforward to double-check in future builds.
What about all the other bolts and things that forgot to be installed correctly?IMO it's going too far to suggest every bolt must now be questioned. If I've understood correctly these doorways may need to be open for access while the interior of the plane is being installed. Then someone fits the door plug and finally that last bit of interior is finished off. It seems to be an unusual stage of the construction process which "should" be easy to check on existing aircraft and "should" be straightforward to double-check in future builds.
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