Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)
Discussion
carlo996 said:
paulguitar said:
When you've been asked to explain specifically what you disagree with and why, you've been repeatedly unable or unwilling to do so. Your contribution to the F1 threads seems to be primarily the 'rolling on the floor laughing' emoji.
As you can see, some excellent discussion occurs here amongst people who have watched and attended F1 races for decades. If and when you feel able join in with that, you'd be very welcome to do so.
I disagree with your statement saying many believe he is 8* WDC, and it’s blatantly obvious that he isn’t. Not sure what you’re thinking really? I’ve watched Hamilton since he entered F1 thanks, it’s quite sad to see where he is now , but everyone has their time in the sunshine. As you can see, some excellent discussion occurs here amongst people who have watched and attended F1 races for decades. If and when you feel able join in with that, you'd be very welcome to do so.
maz8062 said:
MV will probably win a lot in the sport but he missed a trick in AD21 in my view. Can you imagine if he deliberately followed LH home allowing him to claim the WDC, acknowledging that it was a farce and didn’t want to be part of it? He’d still be winning today but his status in this here sport would be elevated to the stratosphere. He didn’t and so some still hold that against him even though not his fault as a competitor.
That's a great point. Imagine the plaudits and adulation MV would have received the following year when winning his then first WDC. Everyone would have been universal applauding.But as you say he is a competitor, and wanted to win, and will continue to win.
I think another great driver is Emerson Fittipaldi who would have surely won more championships had he not switched to his brothers team. I saw him at Brands when he first came to the UK in the Jim Russell Lotus 59 F3 car at a test day. I don’t think he had driven the car on the circuit before but was on Lap record pace in his first session. You could see he was destined to be a world champion from that day.
White-Noise said:
Lots of folks put Clark at the top. I know a little about him but given he was before most of our time and coverage and info was like the modern era, how do we see enough of what he did to know he was that good? I'm not saying I disagree, it just seems more difficult to really know... if you see what I mean?
For me, to get into that upper tier of drivers, they really need to be in a team against another top driver to prove their salt. Else its hard to get a feel of where they are truly at. Lewis did that from day 1 but it will be very interesting to see how he fares against Charles.
I think there are some people here who saw Clark drive (perhaps Derek will be along hopefully) but as much as anything it's enlightening to read and hear what his fellow drivers from that time had to say about him. Basically, he was looked at in much the same way that Stirling Moss had been a few years before. His competitors accepted that not only was he better, he was A LOT better than they were.For me, to get into that upper tier of drivers, they really need to be in a team against another top driver to prove their salt. Else its hard to get a feel of where they are truly at. Lewis did that from day 1 but it will be very interesting to see how he fares against Charles.
Good point about teammates. Those who drove often as Clark's teammate were:
Innes Ireland (13 races)
Trevor Taylor (19 races)
Peter Arundell (17 races)
Mike Spence (16 races)
Graham Hill (12 races)
It's hardly a list of all-time greats. Graham Hill was twice WDC, but I don't think anyone considered him in the class of Clark or Moss, including Hill himself.
Having said that, almost nobody disputes that Clark was an otherworldly, Senna-level talent, but without the rough edges. He'd also often drive several different types of car over a weekend, and easily win in all of them!
paulguitar said:
Everyone knows what happened in 2021, particularly those inside the sport. Equally, everyone now accepts that Verstappen has been recorded as the WDC of that season. It's done, and as disgraceful as what took place was, Masi was fired, and the 'sport' continues, although sullied.
As for Lewis now. Well, he was the best of the rest last season behind the Red Bulls. This season he has the 4th best car and so far seems a bit out of sorts. Mercedes clearly doesn't understand this set of regulations and it could be a pretty tedious season for Hamilton. Hopefully, he'll have a better time at Ferrari. I'd love to see him win a few races there, and ideally right the wrong of 2021. Ultimately, it won't make a big difference to how he is remembered when he's finally out of F1. As Mark Hughes wrote, he'd have been considered an all-time great if he'd retired at the end of 2007.
I don't think he'd be called an all time great retiring in 2007, very good but we wouldn't know enough to put him really up there. As for Lewis now. Well, he was the best of the rest last season behind the Red Bulls. This season he has the 4th best car and so far seems a bit out of sorts. Mercedes clearly doesn't understand this set of regulations and it could be a pretty tedious season for Hamilton. Hopefully, he'll have a better time at Ferrari. I'd love to see him win a few races there, and ideally right the wrong of 2021. Ultimately, it won't make a big difference to how he is remembered when he's finally out of F1. As Mark Hughes wrote, he'd have been considered an all-time great if he'd retired at the end of 2007.
I think this season is a combination of things. Likely less motivated as he knows the car is poor, perhaps getting less guidance from the team as they know he is leaving so don't want to give away secrets if they can help it, and perhaps also just getting a bit older too. It's interesting the two years the car is worst is when he's not really matching Russell, compared to an ok car when he beat him. That suggests either driving style (for example does his likely sensitive car feel mean a vague car is hard to drive for him, as the signals you get are wrong so you drive slower, compared to someone who might do it more on visuals for example?) or motivation most likely for me.
NRS said:
I don't think he'd be called an all time great retiring in 2007, very good but we wouldn't know enough to put him really up there.
I agree with Mark Hughes that he would have had to be ranked as such due to the extraordinary nature of what he achieved in 2007. It would be like someone coming into F1 now as a rookie and beating Max Verstappen at Red Bull over the season. It's almost inconceivable. 
maz8062 said:
LH, especially after his rookie year, the gamble he made jumping to Merc and the fact that he goes about his business without any help from the sport, airs or graces, tops all of the drivers I’ve watched and the stats back it up.
What do you mean by going about his business without any help from the sport? Any examples of the opposite?Siao said:
maz8062 said:
LH, especially after his rookie year, the gamble he made jumping to Merc and the fact that he goes about his business without any help from the sport, airs or graces, tops all of the drivers I’ve watched and the stats back it up.
What do you mean by going about his business without any help from the sport? Any examples of the opposite?
dh00065p said:
I think another great driver is Emerson Fittipaldi who would have surely won more championships had he not switched to his brothers team. I saw him at Brands when he first came to the UK in the Jim Russell Lotus 59 F3 car at a test day. I don’t think he had driven the car on the circuit before but was on Lap record pace in his first session. You could see he was destined to be a world champion from that day.
Emerson has an incredible family and race history. From the youngest F1 champion to F1 team owner, bankrupting badly, and then rising to become Formula Indy champion and winning twice the Indy 500. paulguitar said:
White-Noise said:
Lots of folks put Clark at the top. I know a little about him but given he was before most of our time and coverage and info was like the modern era, how do we see enough of what he did to know he was that good? I'm not saying I disagree, it just seems more difficult to really know... if you see what I mean?
For me, to get into that upper tier of drivers, they really need to be in a team against another top driver to prove their salt. Else its hard to get a feel of where they are truly at. Lewis did that from day 1 but it will be very interesting to see how he fares against Charles.
I think there are some people here who saw Clark drive (perhaps Derek will be along hopefully) but as much as anything it's enlightening to read and hear what his fellow drivers from that time had to say about him. Basically, he was looked at in much the same way that Stirling Moss had been a few years before. His competitors accepted that not only was he better, he was A LOT better than they were.For me, to get into that upper tier of drivers, they really need to be in a team against another top driver to prove their salt. Else its hard to get a feel of where they are truly at. Lewis did that from day 1 but it will be very interesting to see how he fares against Charles.
Good point about teammates. Those who drove often as Clark's teammate were:
Innes Ireland (13 races)
Trevor Taylor (19 races)
Peter Arundell (17 races)
Mike Spence (16 races)
Graham Hill (12 races)
It's hardly a list of all-time greats. Graham Hill was twice WDC, but I don't think anyone considered him in the class of Clark or Moss, including Hill himself.
Having said that, almost nobody disputes that Clark was an otherworldly, Senna-level talent, but without the rough edges. He'd also often drive several different types of car over a weekend, and easily win in all of them!
In my eyes he is the GOAT.
paulguitar said:
NRS said:
I don't think he'd be called an all time great retiring in 2007, very good but we wouldn't know enough to put him really up there.
I agree with Mark Hughes that he would have had to be ranked as such due to the extraordinary nature of what he achieved in 2007. It would be like someone coming into F1 now as a rookie and beating Max Verstappen at Red Bull over the season. It's almost inconceivable. Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff