Hydrogen is the future of motoring
Discussion
Dr Interceptor said:
Electrolysis would be the ideal method... providing it's done using renewable energy such as HEP, Solar or Wind - or even using waste energy from industry/power stations.
You think there is capacity (pardon the pun) for that, as well as power our homes? At least wind farms cut down on noise pollution by killing all the birds in the area....thinfourth2 said:
DonkeyApple said:
And noise. I'm a huge fan of electric for urban and pottering use but completely accept the current stumbling blocks.
The sooner the range issue can be resolved the better our lives will be. But I don't agree with the concept of roll in-roll out battery changing. The only credible solution is to use modern composites to make the vehicle as light as it can possibly be and flood key areas with charge points so you can charge the vehicle at both A and B..
Taking the concept a teeny bit furtherThe sooner the range issue can be resolved the better our lives will be. But I don't agree with the concept of roll in-roll out battery changing. The only credible solution is to use modern composites to make the vehicle as light as it can possibly be and flood key areas with charge points so you can charge the vehicle at both A and B..
Do you need to own a car?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULnpYxJ8WrA&lis...
Yes we all want to own a V8 super saloon as we are all powerfully built directors and our penis would fall off if we even caught sight of a car with an engine of less then 3 ltrs
However does your average city dweller need own a car
But then how much of the traffic in London is Londoners? Not very much. It's mostly commuters from outside of the immediate environs and commercials (until you get to West London where people have lost the ability to walk as walking is what their peasant farmer parents used to do and so it frightens them
).This is why range is key. Funnily enough, the only vehicle type which could sensibly work on a battery swap model is the black cab but this falls down when you realise that most drivers commute in from a very long way away.
The reality is that if all Londoners converted to EV it would make very little difference. Its the minicabs, vans, black cabs and commuters who create the bulk of the traffic.
As for me, well I've been here all my life and I use the car to leave London as I'm only here during the week. I don't bother driving in London and haven't for years, just use taxis.
The thing that most people seem to forget is that Fuel Cell isn't the only technology that is being developed and is progressing. Battery technology has far more investment, is simpler and has far better 'well to wheel' efficiency than any Hydrogen vehicle.
If you could create an electric vehicle that weighed the same as a current IC engined car with a 1000 mile range (and there are plausible battery chemistries that could achieve this in the future) then why would you bother with the complexity of a fuel cell?
Personally I think the future is a mix of electric and methanol. Fuel Cells might be useful for heavy goods and Taxis eventually, but to be honest while there's cheap oil nothing's got much of a chance.
Also worth mentioning that hydrogen based IC is a total waste of time, even with an effective storage medium you'd still end up with immense fuel cost and poor performance.
Also worth mentioning this has all been done to death on here a hundred times.
If you could create an electric vehicle that weighed the same as a current IC engined car with a 1000 mile range (and there are plausible battery chemistries that could achieve this in the future) then why would you bother with the complexity of a fuel cell?
Personally I think the future is a mix of electric and methanol. Fuel Cells might be useful for heavy goods and Taxis eventually, but to be honest while there's cheap oil nothing's got much of a chance.
Also worth mentioning that hydrogen based IC is a total waste of time, even with an effective storage medium you'd still end up with immense fuel cost and poor performance.
Also worth mentioning this has all been done to death on here a hundred times.
Mr Gear said:
Omshanti said:
I think in the video I posted the technology uses hydrogen to vaporise water instantly and then it's the steam that powers the engine, so it is mostly water that does the job in each cycle of the engine.
Hydrogen + Oxygen = vaporised water anyway, so that doesn't make an difference. The problem is that internal combustion is inefficient. Just look at how much heat cars have to shed from radiators and through hot exhausts. All that is wasted energy. Off the top of my head, I think an IC petrol engine is only 30% efficient whereas fuel cells are 90% efficient. Someone will be able to tell you the exact numbers.Edited by Omshanti on Wednesday 1st August 10:51
otolith said:
CraigyMc said:
But i don't think Greenpeace would be overly keen on cars using that particular form of propulsion but ZERO co2 so they might like it
Mr Gear said:
Diesel gives good fuel economy, but in emissions terms we are into a stage of diminishing returns. DPF filters anyone?
Electric + something (be that petrol engine or hydrogen fuel cell "range extender" or whatever) seems like an acceptable technology in the short-term at least.
Hydrogen has problems... not so much in how it works, it works well, but in efficiency and economy terms its crippled. It's still too cheap and easy to pump fossil fuels for hydrogen to make much sense.
agreed, hybrids (or possibly downsized, eco-optimised petrol turbo cars) seem to be the best short-term option when balancing global/local pollution and economic reality.Electric + something (be that petrol engine or hydrogen fuel cell "range extender" or whatever) seems like an acceptable technology in the short-term at least.
Hydrogen has problems... not so much in how it works, it works well, but in efficiency and economy terms its crippled. It's still too cheap and easy to pump fossil fuels for hydrogen to make much sense.
otolith said:
How do you believe that the oil companies have the power to control the research and development conducted by car companies? It's just tinfoil hattery.
It is fair to say that unless a car manufacturer could convince a company like Shell or BP to install a pump for alternative fuel at every one of their stations, the car manufacturer would probably be unable to release the product... but that's as far as it goes.
otolith said:
How do you believe that the oil companies have the power to control the research and development conducted by car companies? It's just tinfoil hattery.
I don't think the oil companies are holding things back, but if they wanted to they probably could. As an example Saudi Arabia contribute something like 5% of USA's GDP, use that kind of money wisely and you could influence just about anything, you may not stop it but could certainly postpone it.Mr Gear said:
Omshanti said:
You said that it will need a 3 times bigger tank, and it doesn't. That was my point. I wasn't arguing about the over all efficiency of combustion engine vs fuel cell.
You are right, it doesn't need a bigger tank. As long as you don't mind gong 1/3rd of the distance.The fuel cell taxis do 160 ~240 miles if driven very carefully.
Now I coundn't find anywhere about the sizes of their tanks but 100 miles driven 40 m/h over the speed limit on a mixed tank of hydrogen and water is not 1/3 of carefully driven 160~240 miles driven just on hydrogen. The one in the video was just a converted petrol car as well so, unlike the taxis, the drivetrein wasn't even designed from the beginning with this technology in mind.
It's like comparing apples to oranges, and it was not even my point in the first place to argue over efficiencies of combustion engines vs fuel cells either.
My point with this particular video was that the car in it is powered by hydrogen+water where water does half the work within each cycle of the engine, therefore saying that hydrogen technology is able to save the internal combustion engine and manual gears, which are important factors in making driving cars enjoyable.
Edited by Omshanti on Wednesday 1st August 11:48
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