EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Dave200 said:
Ankh87 said:
Rich Boy Spanner said:
With company cars money talks. I went from circa £3k a year BIK to £300 by changing a weedy 1.5 litre petrol Octavia for a Leaf. I save a lot of money and the car drives so much better that it makes the Octavia look like a horse and carriage.
Crap on long journeys though with the charging, but fortunately I don't have to make many.
Would I have bought the Leaf with my own money? No, because of the £32K list and the range issues. But as a thing to drive it is, like most EV's rather wonderful. Make it have a real world range of 400 miles and a price nearer to an ICE equivalent and Ill buy the EV.
This is the thing. If the cars had 400 miles even in the worst case (not flooring it everywhere) and the prices were just as cheap, then more people would buy them.Crap on long journeys though with the charging, but fortunately I don't have to make many.
Would I have bought the Leaf with my own money? No, because of the £32K list and the range issues. But as a thing to drive it is, like most EV's rather wonderful. Make it have a real world range of 400 miles and a price nearer to an ICE equivalent and Ill buy the EV.
Not everyone wants massive amounts of power, some people just want comfy and steady driving. My partner has zero cares about how fast a car is, just wants it to go from A to B, be nice and easy to drive, without it costing a fortune.
However as I do actually have an EV I know that the bug bear when you do drive a long distance is waiting in a queue for a charger. It means you cannot have any certainty in the time of arrival. So a real world range of 400 miles takes an awful lot of that way on any given RETURN journey. But what do I know. I only have one of the things and actually have real world experience of using it.
tamore said:
i think pegging the psychological capability at 400 is a fair shout, even if people may never use it or extremely seldom if they do.
2 ways of addressing it. get people into EVs and see that it is just a psychological barrier. or put packs in that can do it. the latter is very expensive right now, but will be easy in a few years.
400 miles is a silly arbitrary number. My Tesla will do 300+ without any effort to hypermile it, and will do 400 with only a short stop to recharge. The number of people who need to drive 400 miles without stopping is just irrelevant to EV uptake. 400 miles is Dover to Berwick-upon-Tweed, which is 7 hours on a good run. This silly 400-mile non-stop strawman is just that, it's irrelevant to the point of being nonexistent.2 ways of addressing it. get people into EVs and see that it is just a psychological barrier. or put packs in that can do it. the latter is very expensive right now, but will be easy in a few years.
Ankh87 said:
A car should be able to go from Newcastle to Dover without multiple stops shouldn't it? 400 miles is relatively nothing and a car should be able to go one end of England to the other. Otherwise it's a backwards step, might as well get a horse and cart.
It would be of no value to me as I live in Sussex and have no future plans to visit Newcastle. I spent a couple of weeks working in Gateshead once and that was enough 
In fact for me 200 miles range is plenty for an EV. I wouldn't want more as I don't need it nor want to carry the extra weight of bigger batteries nor pay for them.
As a regular reminder, EV vs ICE is not even a binary proposition. I bet it's possible to have both.
Rich Boy Spanner said:
Dave200 said:
Ankh87 said:
Rich Boy Spanner said:
With company cars money talks. I went from circa £3k a year BIK to £300 by changing a weedy 1.5 litre petrol Octavia for a Leaf. I save a lot of money and the car drives so much better that it makes the Octavia look like a horse and carriage.
Crap on long journeys though with the charging, but fortunately I don't have to make many.
Would I have bought the Leaf with my own money? No, because of the £32K list and the range issues. But as a thing to drive it is, like most EV's rather wonderful. Make it have a real world range of 400 miles and a price nearer to an ICE equivalent and Ill buy the EV.
This is the thing. If the cars had 400 miles even in the worst case (not flooring it everywhere) and the prices were just as cheap, then more people would buy them.Crap on long journeys though with the charging, but fortunately I don't have to make many.
Would I have bought the Leaf with my own money? No, because of the £32K list and the range issues. But as a thing to drive it is, like most EV's rather wonderful. Make it have a real world range of 400 miles and a price nearer to an ICE equivalent and Ill buy the EV.
Not everyone wants massive amounts of power, some people just want comfy and steady driving. My partner has zero cares about how fast a car is, just wants it to go from A to B, be nice and easy to drive, without it costing a fortune.
However as I do actually have an EV I know that the bug bear when you do drive a long distance is waiting in a queue for a charger. It means you cannot have any certainty in the time of arrival. So a real world range of 400 miles takes an awful lot of that way on any given RETURN journey. But what do I know. I only have one of the things and actually have real world experience of using it.
nickfrog said:
Ankh87 said:
A car should be able to go from Newcastle to Dover without multiple stops shouldn't it? 400 miles is relatively nothing and a car should be able to go one end of England to the other. Otherwise it's a backwards step, might as well get a horse and cart.
It would be of no value to me as I live in Sussex and have no future plans to visit Newcastle. I spent a couple of weeks working in Gateshead once and that was enough In fact for me 200 miles range is plenty for an EV. I wouldn't want more as I don't need it nor want to carry the extra weight of bigger batteries nor pay for them.
As a regular reminder, EV vs ICE is not even a binary proposition. I bet it's possible to have both.
Unreal said:
silentbrown said:
Base Focus is 10.2 secs to 60. That's a significant difference.
Not to the type of mass market driver EVs need to appeal to. 0-60 times are utterly irrelevant to the majority of these users. They don't want a fast car as evidenced by what they buy at the moment. If you give them a faster car for the same money of course they'll take it, but it won't influence the decision to buy it in the first place. Most of the time the dog is on board, doesn't appreciate cornering on the door handles, quick starts or stops, so essentially in the eyes of some I bumble about keeping it smooth and gentle. So not quick. Yet pull away from traffic lights or a stop, even though I'm deliberately driving what to me and the dog is smooth and steady the vehicle behind 80% of the time drops back, rarely keeps up. Usually on rural roads it's my slow and steady that gets held up. If someone behind wants to go more quickly, every reasonable assistance is given to facilitate the overtake.
PH members and attitudes to performance are not representative of by far the majority of road users.
Random irrelevant factoids the 11 secs to 60 is the same as for example a Mk1 Lotus Cortina which in its first Autocar road test was described as having impressive acceleration despite the high gearing on the std version. For context on the RAC rally in the year the car was launched one competitor Peter Harper was in a Humber Super Snipe and the works team of 5 Rover P5 3 litres all finished the event and took 3rd place in the manufacturers class prize.
Dave200 said:
tamore said:
i think pegging the psychological capability at 400 is a fair shout, even if people may never use it or extremely seldom if they do.
2 ways of addressing it. get people into EVs and see that it is just a psychological barrier. or put packs in that can do it. the latter is very expensive right now, but will be easy in a few years.
400 miles is a silly arbitrary number. My Tesla will do 300+ without any effort to hypermile it, and will do 400 with only a short stop to recharge. The number of people who need to drive 400 miles without stopping is just irrelevant to EV uptake. 400 miles is Dover to Berwick-upon-Tweed, which is 7 hours on a good run. This silly 400-mile non-stop strawman is just that, it's irrelevant to the point of being nonexistent.2 ways of addressing it. get people into EVs and see that it is just a psychological barrier. or put packs in that can do it. the latter is very expensive right now, but will be easy in a few years.
Dave200 said:
400 miles is a silly arbitrary number. My Tesla will do 300+ without any effort to hypermile it, and will do 400 with only a short stop to recharge. The number of people who need to drive 400 miles without stopping is just irrelevant to EV uptake. 400 miles is Dover to Berwick-upon-Tweed, which is 7 hours on a good run. This silly 400-mile non-stop strawman is just that, it's irrelevant to the point of being nonexistent.
400 miles range in the brochure might mean a solid reliable 300 miles with a bit in hand for cockups.I did over 300 miles yesterday. Well my car did, I split the driving.
The problem is, new car buying is biased towards business users who do a lot of miles.
Maybe less so than in the old days when a lot of people I knew did 40k a year in their Vectra and Mondeo repmobiles.
400 miles in the brochure might mean your real life worst case 300 miles becomes 200 miles when the car is 10 years old.
It's not 399 bad, 401 good, but 'more is better'.
People don't believe the brochure numbers, any more than they believe brochure mpg figures.
So they want 'plenty' of range with a 'good handful' in reserve.
And if you do ever contemplate a 7 hour trip to Berwick, it's not going to be improved by spending an hour in Newark or similar.
In a car like the Kona, what would the charging be on a trip to Berwick? 300 mile 'brochure range' so charge at 200 miles and 300 miles or so?
That sounds like the edge of what people would accept.
If you start talking about needing to stop 3 times, it's starting to sound like some sort of epic trip my parents might have made in 1960.
Could part of the reason for "range anxiety" be that some (many?) folk have no idea of their car's range nor of how many miles they drive in a typical week or month?
Maybe they just trundle around, checking the fuel gauge occasionally, and fill up when necessary.
Some may have some idea of range from the car's dashboard display - those that bother to look after filling up.
This may apply particularly to shared cars, used by two or more members of the same family, for example. (We've all experienced, or heard of, getting into the car and wondering how long the fuel light has been on!).
So all the talk about range might create uncertainty for those considering EV because they have no idea what they need, charging requirements, etc.
Maybe they just trundle around, checking the fuel gauge occasionally, and fill up when necessary.
Some may have some idea of range from the car's dashboard display - those that bother to look after filling up.
This may apply particularly to shared cars, used by two or more members of the same family, for example. (We've all experienced, or heard of, getting into the car and wondering how long the fuel light has been on!).
So all the talk about range might create uncertainty for those considering EV because they have no idea what they need, charging requirements, etc.
tamore said:
Dave200 said:
tamore said:
i think pegging the psychological capability at 400 is a fair shout, even if people may never use it or extremely seldom if they do.
2 ways of addressing it. get people into EVs and see that it is just a psychological barrier. or put packs in that can do it. the latter is very expensive right now, but will be easy in a few years.
400 miles is a silly arbitrary number. My Tesla will do 300+ without any effort to hypermile it, and will do 400 with only a short stop to recharge. The number of people who need to drive 400 miles without stopping is just irrelevant to EV uptake. 400 miles is Dover to Berwick-upon-Tweed, which is 7 hours on a good run. This silly 400-mile non-stop strawman is just that, it's irrelevant to the point of being nonexistent.2 ways of addressing it. get people into EVs and see that it is just a psychological barrier. or put packs in that can do it. the latter is very expensive right now, but will be easy in a few years.
Doesn’t matter if you agree with me, but I bet it’s a major consideration for some people.
Longest 1 day trip I've done is York to Aachen (528 miles). From memory, I stopped 3 times. Not because I had to (car had a 700+ mile range), but because I needed to/wanted to.
The idea that you 'need' a 400 mile EV range is b
ks. No-one is regularly doing 400 mile drives without stopping. Heck, I don't think many do 200 miles without stopping for a drink, leg stretch and a pee.
I do a regular 215 mile trip and stop at least once given it's a 4h journey at best.
The idea that you 'need' a 400 mile EV range is b
ks. No-one is regularly doing 400 mile drives without stopping. Heck, I don't think many do 200 miles without stopping for a drink, leg stretch and a pee.I do a regular 215 mile trip and stop at least once given it's a 4h journey at best.
All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:
1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
KingGary said:
I agree, and it’s not arbitrary at all if it becomes a barrier to adoption. Of course most people won’t do 400 miles in one go, it’s not unheard of to do 200, which means you’ll need to recharge before making a return journey. Great if you can find a charger and are prepared to wait several hours to “refuel” but some people cannot be arsed with that. Refuelling with petrol or diesel is completely different as it’s widely available and takes less than 10 minutes to complete.
Doesn’t matter if you agree with me, but I bet it’s a major consideration for some people.
"Several hours". "If you can find a charger". Righto. Utter bDoesn’t matter if you agree with me, but I bet it’s a major consideration for some people.
ks. You have no idea what you're on about. Jog on pal 
GeneralBanter said:
All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:
1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
I get 300+ miles on a 'tank'.1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
I fill up at home, which takes me less than 30 seconds of effort and those 300 miles cost me a tenner.
Now that's incredible.
KingGary said:
tamore said:
Dave200 said:
tamore said:
i think pegging the psychological capability at 400 is a fair shout, even if people may never use it or extremely seldom if they do.
2 ways of addressing it. get people into EVs and see that it is just a psychological barrier. or put packs in that can do it. the latter is very expensive right now, but will be easy in a few years.
400 miles is a silly arbitrary number. My Tesla will do 300+ without any effort to hypermile it, and will do 400 with only a short stop to recharge. The number of people who need to drive 400 miles without stopping is just irrelevant to EV uptake. 400 miles is Dover to Berwick-upon-Tweed, which is 7 hours on a good run. This silly 400-mile non-stop strawman is just that, it's irrelevant to the point of being nonexistent.2 ways of addressing it. get people into EVs and see that it is just a psychological barrier. or put packs in that can do it. the latter is very expensive right now, but will be easy in a few years.
Doesn’t matter if you agree with me, but I bet it’s a major consideration for some people.
Surely having an arbitrary 400 Mile target range Is just common sense. It's NOT because we all want to do 400 mile journeys every day its because we MAY do 400 miles in a week and just don't want to be charging up all the time
Charge it once a week and your good for the following week.
Maybe you can cope with a smaller range if you have home charging (we do) but if I had to go somewhere to charge up then I certainly couldn't be arsed to do it more than once a week.
Tbh I sometimes can't be arsed to walk out my door to plug the car in because the missus has forgotten again !
We love cars because they're easy, they're convenient and a real world 400 mile range would be great.
Charge it once a week and your good for the following week.
Maybe you can cope with a smaller range if you have home charging (we do) but if I had to go somewhere to charge up then I certainly couldn't be arsed to do it more than once a week.
Tbh I sometimes can't be arsed to walk out my door to plug the car in because the missus has forgotten again !
We love cars because they're easy, they're convenient and a real world 400 mile range would be great.
GeneralBanter said:
All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:
1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
That's it. Until an EV can do that then many will not want to change. Some people might not be bothered about that but it seems most are. 1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
Ankh87 said:
GeneralBanter said:
All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:
1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
That's it. Until an EV can do that then many will not want to change. Some people might not be bothered about that but it seems most are. 1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
Comedy gold
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