RAF Marham Driving Days 11 & 12th October 2008
Discussion
We can ask which session you want to be in next time. We do have roughly enough numbers to hold a seperate session. They wont be even but we should still be able to run an A and B session and stay within the 80 car limit. At 12:00 we only had 35 cars on track so if we get 35 drifters then everyone should be happy.
I did notice that some of the drifters were blocking off to prevent cars from coming too close. I don't think that can carry on without complaints.
I do think that a seperate session for drifters and people who don't mind is the way to go.
We just don't have the people and resources to set up a seperate area.
George
I did notice that some of the drifters were blocking off to prevent cars from coming too close. I don't think that can carry on without complaints.
I do think that a seperate session for drifters and people who don't mind is the way to go.
We just don't have the people and resources to set up a seperate area.
George
personally i managed to not encounter any drifters on any of my laps, but the ABS were in a different group. I've not been held up with the drift gang on any previous event either.
I will hold my hand up and say i was breathing down a bit hard on some poor chap at one point- couldn't get past on the straights but I would have been much quicker on the twists. but after a few seconds I gave myself a slap for being an imbecile and hung back a fair way to gain some space for both of us. must have been the heat getting to me, if it was you I apologise profusely :-)
as for litter i took most of mine home with me. I did pick a couple of butts up from the front of my car at the very end, I don't smoke and I geuss the wind can carry things around on an open airfield. they were disposed of and not left hanging around. think you need a megaphone at the next breifing to make sure everyone hears it loud and clear.
I had no complaint with the day. except that I now want to subconciously empty my wallet on suspension parts, dang you! :-D
I will hold my hand up and say i was breathing down a bit hard on some poor chap at one point- couldn't get past on the straights but I would have been much quicker on the twists. but after a few seconds I gave myself a slap for being an imbecile and hung back a fair way to gain some space for both of us. must have been the heat getting to me, if it was you I apologise profusely :-)
as for litter i took most of mine home with me. I did pick a couple of butts up from the front of my car at the very end, I don't smoke and I geuss the wind can carry things around on an open airfield. they were disposed of and not left hanging around. think you need a megaphone at the next breifing to make sure everyone hears it loud and clear.
I had no complaint with the day. except that I now want to subconciously empty my wallet on suspension parts, dang you! :-D
Edited by bodieanddoyle on Tuesday 14th October 18:19
To all those interested here's the pics of my Green 205 from beginning to the end. If anyone has pics or vids of it i'd quite like to see them.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2009035&...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2009043&...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2009035&...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2009043&...
MG Mark said:
[quote=browny,s blower]any one got any pics of the FLUX GIRLS then as some of us only there on sunday
I most certainly have, with all 6 draped over a certain MGA coupe, a Frogeye and an MG Midget. The front wings of the car will probably be hallowed and unwashed for some time to come.... I can't access a photo hosting site from work, so I'll try and upload something for your delectation this evening....MG Mark
MG Mark
Edited by MG Mark on Tuesday 14th October 20:41
Edited by MG Mark on Tuesday 14th October 20:41
I ought to have guessed why the thread had opened up so I needed to scroll > right > just to read it.....
back to topic-----
Wash it?
Come off it, she never gets washed hardly anyway
But a certain green Midget may not have its wings washed again.
Nice girls? And a great day out, thanks to all for making us as welcome as you do.
Hannah I hope you got safely home with your baby, sad about the engine. My fingers are crossed that it isnt too awful inside.
back to topic-----
Wash it?
Come off it, she never gets washed hardly anyway
But a certain green Midget may not have its wings washed again.
Nice girls? And a great day out, thanks to all for making us as welcome as you do.
Hannah I hope you got safely home with your baby, sad about the engine. My fingers are crossed that it isnt too awful inside.
I don't want to put a dampener on things, but just a little risk assessment.
Now, cars don't often roll on trackdays unless they catch a kerb or dig into grass, but i am aware it is fully possible to happen as just sheer bad luck.
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I know everyone signs disclaimers, we all know what the risks are and accept them, but not many people have driven on such grippy tracks before and it may catch people out.
I'm not playing the blame game here, just trying to could up with a solution to a problem, which in all fairness might not even exist, but i hope it's a valid point.
Now, cars don't often roll on trackdays unless they catch a kerb or dig into grass, but i am aware it is fully possible to happen as just sheer bad luck.
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I know everyone signs disclaimers, we all know what the risks are and accept them, but not many people have driven on such grippy tracks before and it may catch people out.
I'm not playing the blame game here, just trying to could up with a solution to a problem, which in all fairness might not even exist, but i hope it's a valid point.
TheEnd said:
I don't want to put a dampener on things, but just a little risk assessment.
Now, cars don't often roll on trackdays unless they catch a kerb or dig into grass, but i am aware it is fully possible to happen as just sheer bad luck.
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I know everyone signs disclaimers, we all know what the risks are and accept them, but not many people have driven on such grippy tracks before and it may catch people out.
I'm not playing the blame game here, just trying to could up with a solution to a problem, which in all fairness might not even exist, but i hope it's a valid point.
I think it rolled on the Piano keys - I'm not 100% sure but the midget did the same thing earlier in the year....Now, cars don't often roll on trackdays unless they catch a kerb or dig into grass, but i am aware it is fully possible to happen as just sheer bad luck.
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I know everyone signs disclaimers, we all know what the risks are and accept them, but not many people have driven on such grippy tracks before and it may catch people out.
I'm not playing the blame game here, just trying to could up with a solution to a problem, which in all fairness might not even exist, but i hope it's a valid point.
Either way they are a tricky place to get right - high grip - low grip - high grip - low grip and all on a bend - get it right and you can feel the back end slip grip slip grip - get it wrong and it kinda slides and then slides faster on the low grip surface this can definately catch you out - Lift off oversteer in this corner would really be hard to control
I ran with track day compound barely road legal tyres in the first part of the day and then slicks in the afternoon - same results as road tyres I have run previously - it's a tricky section and I wouldn't want the event dumbed down - so very sticky tyres don't make much diffrence IMHO
Anyway have a really good picture taken by the nick-elise
Edited by B'stard Child on Tuesday 14th October 23:35
TheEnd said:
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I think it's a very valid and worthwhile point to raise. It is interesting to note that both the rolls in recent events have happened in roughly the same area down by the piano keys.I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
The piano key area is one with a dramatic change of grip and a sharp change of direction so it is bound to catch some people out. What I noticed time and time again following people through that section is that they were take a line through that section that does exacerbate the risk. If the cones on the entry are pulled in to tighten it hard to the left hand side then that will effectively move the "flick point" away from the keys.
I loved sliding round the keys so I think it would be a shame to route around them but if the risk can be managed to keep everybody safe then that would be superb.
Back to the drifting issue - how about having a 'drift only' session over the lunchbreak (say, 90 minutes), then asking them to take it a bit easier for the rest of the day? A full hour with a virtually empty track might satisfy? Many of the drifters like to do fast laps too.
As for the piano keys, the only solution I can see is to hit it 'head on' (i.e. from the side, like a zebra crossing). Can the track be changed to allow this?
As for the piano keys, the only solution I can see is to hit it 'head on' (i.e. from the side, like a zebra crossing). Can the track be changed to allow this?
Edited by chevin on Wednesday 15th October 00:10
TheEnd said:
I don't want to put a dampener on things, but just a little risk assessment.
Now, cars don't often roll on trackdays unless they catch a kerb or dig into grass, but i am aware it is fully possible to happen as just sheer bad luck.
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I know everyone signs disclaimers, we all know what the risks are and accept them, but not many people have driven on such grippy tracks before and it may catch people out.
I'm not playing the blame game here, just trying to could up with a solution to a problem, which in all fairness might not even exist, but i hope it's a valid point.
I can't really comment on the MG issue, although I arrived there about 10 seconds after it happend. But with the 205, I was probably in the best seat in the house, I was parked up in Marshal Car 2 along side Car 3, 40 ft or so off from the Keys. Johno/Martin may agree that he was carrying an awful lot of speed into the corner, to much IMO and a few laps before had done the same thing, but insted of trying to correct it he just let off and put the wheels straight and took himself through the cones and then recovered onto the circuit which was very controlled. But the second time he tried to correct it with opposite lock, I watched the whole thing from start to finish and the car didn't seem to dig in like the MG, the shear momentum on the change of direction put the car over and onto its roof, followed by some frantic sliding and then digging in about 15ft away from the cars and landing on all 4 wheels about 10ft away! In my own opinion and looking at the way it happened I don't think it had anything to do with the piano keys, it was just the mix of high grip tarmac( all ready mentioned) and the good tyres!(or bad if you look at it that way). Was just unlucky it happened and especially 3 minutes before the end of the day!!! I even missed my tea lol Now, cars don't often roll on trackdays unless they catch a kerb or dig into grass, but i am aware it is fully possible to happen as just sheer bad luck.
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I know everyone signs disclaimers, we all know what the risks are and accept them, but not many people have driven on such grippy tracks before and it may catch people out.
I'm not playing the blame game here, just trying to could up with a solution to a problem, which in all fairness might not even exist, but i hope it's a valid point.
I'm glad it didn't fall off the trailer after me and Andy(MC 3) with a little help from the fireman got it strapped on!
Phil
Edited by Ph!l on Wednesday 15th October 01:47
TheEnd said:
I don't want to put a dampener on things, but just a little risk assessment.
Now, cars don't often roll on trackdays unless they catch a kerb or dig into grass, but i am aware it is fully possible to happen as just sheer bad luck.
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I know everyone signs disclaimers, we all know what the risks are and accept them, but not many people have driven on such grippy tracks before and it may catch people out.
I'm not playing the blame game here, just trying to could up with a solution to a problem, which in all fairness might not even exist, but i hope it's a valid point.
I think anything can roll if you upset it enough. That is only the second roll over in 7 events and both times the drivers and passengers were fine. As for the cars,,,, well,,,, that's one of the risks of driving aggressively. I think we have to leave it up to the drivers to decide. IE,,,,, If you fit slicks to a standard car then flick it from one direction to the other then you may roll over. I was really chucking it into that corner in mine and got it sideways on a few occasions but I would think twice about correcting it if I had slicks on.Now, cars don't often roll on trackdays unless they catch a kerb or dig into grass, but i am aware it is fully possible to happen as just sheer bad luck.
Firstly, if this weekend's 205 went onto the grass then it's a non starter, but if he rolled on the tarmac, it might be an idea to come up with idea to reduce this risk.
I could see the surface is a high friction coating in many areas, so ideas like road tyres only, no slicks/cut slicks and ways of reducing speeds over long fast corners could be looked at.
I know everyone signs disclaimers, we all know what the risks are and accept them, but not many people have driven on such grippy tracks before and it may catch people out.
I'm not playing the blame game here, just trying to could up with a solution to a problem, which in all fairness might not even exist, but i hope it's a valid point.
We can't take away all the risk. We have to leave space for the drivers to make decissions and learn from them. That's the whole point of the event. Learn about your car on the limit in a safe environment.
Having said that. We will add a bit into the drivers brief about slicks and grip.
Cheers
George
Edited by GeorgeyDee on Wednesday 15th October 07:31
johno_78 said:
To all those interested here's the pics of my Green 205 from beginning to the end. If anyone has pics or vids of it i'd quite like to see them.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2009035&...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2009043&...
I'm glad your both ok. I hope it hasn't put you off coming again. I'm sure you'll have another one back on track soon.http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2009035&...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2009043&...
If only you had waited a few more minutes then we would have been bringing you in for the end of session.
Hay Ho.
George
On the subject of racing lines a few minutes at the briefing giving info about them would probably help. I know everyone has a different opinion on what is best but coming into the zebra crossing I cannot get my head around why people make it a 360 degree hairpin by staying out to the right then cutting across and struggling to turn the car around the tight bend when if you cut across the apex of the first corner it opens the corner out immensly. I have a big car and found myself on course to T boning cars that have taken the far right line as they cut across my nose. I did notice a lot of drivers had improved though by the afternoon sessions but info at the briefing or sighting laps might help here.
Oh, and has anyone any action photos of the silver 9000 saab, would appreciate copies please.
Oh, and has anyone any action photos of the silver 9000 saab, would appreciate copies please.
This topic surely has to be resolved by the driver on the day
I found (after Mike's roll last time out in the Midget) that awareness of the possibility of slip/no slip was all it took to make that a fun part of the drive
I attacked the keys from further left than I would normally have driven in and that gave me the 90º run through that was totally stable. I did feel the grip/no grip but as a torque in and out rather than a potential accident.
There was plenty of room to reshape my approach.
I tried to take it tighter on one run and the instability wasn't nice.
A note in the next briefing should be all that was needed, I reckon.
I particularly liked the slightly reshaped complex by the pits, you can see in the picture of my Midget going through here* I was able to get a far better power on and pull out than last time. (better power is relative my Midge gives me about 88bhp at the flywheel - ish!)
and Keith, next time OK?
I found (after Mike's roll last time out in the Midget) that awareness of the possibility of slip/no slip was all it took to make that a fun part of the drive
I attacked the keys from further left than I would normally have driven in and that gave me the 90º run through that was totally stable. I did feel the grip/no grip but as a torque in and out rather than a potential accident.
There was plenty of room to reshape my approach.
I tried to take it tighter on one run and the instability wasn't nice.
A note in the next briefing should be all that was needed, I reckon.
I particularly liked the slightly reshaped complex by the pits, you can see in the picture of my Midget going through here* I was able to get a far better power on and pull out than last time. (better power is relative my Midge gives me about 88bhp at the flywheel - ish!)
- on the pictures post, I couldnt copy it across...
and Keith, next time OK?
MG Mark said:
MG Mark said:
[quote=browny,s blower]any one got any pics of the FLUX GIRLS then as some of us only there on sunday
I most certainly have, with all 6 draped over a certain MGA coupe, a Frogeye and an MG Midget. The front wings of the car will probably be hallowed and unwashed for some time to come.... I can't access a photo hosting site from work, so I'll try and upload something for your delectation this evening....MG Mark
Looks like you all had a great time. Well done to all those who helped out.
As for the comments about risk assesments for these events, there is far to much of that in our everyday lives as it is and would only serve to spoil the relaxed atmosphere that exists at present.
If you want to be completely safe, than don't do track days
Edited by gtr-gaz on Wednesday 15th October 16:58
Mark in Ireland said:
I know everyone has a different opinion on what is best but coming into the zebra crossing I cannot get my head around why people make it a 360 degree hairpin by staying out to the right then cutting across and struggling to turn the car around the tight bend when if you cut across the apex of the first corner it opens the corner out immensly.
Mark, your car was one of the ones that I noticed that was taking that corner "right" and it was apparent from your pace that it was working for you. It does sound as though there is a broad agreement that pulling the cones on the RHS right in would be a "win" with no obvious downsides for anybody.gtr-gaz said:
As for the comments about risk assesments for these events, there is far to much of that in our everyday lives as it is and would only serve to spoil the relaxed atmosphere that exists at present.
If you want to be completely safe, than don't do track days
If you want to be completely safe, than don't do track days
The track layouts fine, yes its unfortunate that these cars rolled but thats the risk you take, if we go along that route than the straight should be halved to stop people redlining their cars for half a mile plus and then things going bang! (EVO6
on saturday).Being a slower car, I find a few people want to get past between the bottom complex after the hairpin and the "piano keys" chicane. this obviously puts them hard on the right hand side of the track- especially if i'm really hammering (ok; going reasonably quick for 34year old car 
) I'll be unwinding out to the middle of the track. maybe thats why people are making into that 360 hairpin?
I geuss sometimes its easy to overcook it. sometimes you might get lucky and spin out and sometimes you may just come a cropper; thats trackdaying.
I will say that the sight of that 205 was pretty "OMFG!" sobering, but it can happen- track, road or greenlane. Its just good to know the guys involved are safe and well
) I'll be unwinding out to the middle of the track. maybe thats why people are making into that 360 hairpin?I geuss sometimes its easy to overcook it. sometimes you might get lucky and spin out and sometimes you may just come a cropper; thats trackdaying.
I will say that the sight of that 205 was pretty "OMFG!" sobering, but it can happen- track, road or greenlane. Its just good to know the guys involved are safe and well
Edited by bodieanddoyle on Wednesday 15th October 18:45
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