Met Police Jaguar S Types
Discussion
Memory age fog is certainly a thing. I was convinced that I had a photograph of the "K"-prefix 827 (which I think was also K***EYT), but I have found the photograph in question, and it is of that cars successor, L465GYV. This car replaced K***EYT, which disappeared one day, after a very short time at Esher, never to be seen again!
L465GYV may well still exist. As far as I can recall, it never disgraced itself, and was still serving as "Victor Four" when I left for pastures new in 1996, a case of jumping before a compulsory transfer, due to Tenure Policy, dropped soon afterwards. The car last had a V5 in 2002 and is currently on a SORN. It has not had an MOT since the records were computerised in 2005. Should it ever resurface, then I will happily present the owner with a copy. In the meantime, I will try to get someone less technically challenged, to post the photograph on here. Okay, it's not a Jaguar S-Type, but if it survives, it will be no less deserving of preservation.
As far as I can ascertain, there were 384 Jaguar S-Types bought by the Met between 1965 and 1968, when production ended, (some cars not being registered until early in 1969). To date, I have been able to trace 24 known survivors from that number. There are probably more than this figure suggests, as some previously de-registered cars resurface, (KYU419D being an example of this), or other cars on the DVLA database are taxed, or have new V5Cs issued after many years dormant.
I doubt whether this survival rate can be matched by the Rover P6 or 827, the Triumph 2500PI, or TC, or any of it's other near contemporaries. Commendable indeed, speaking volumes for the quality of these cars. Only the Morris Minor Pandas can beat them, and they lead much gentler lives, when compared to R/T (Area) or Traffic Cars.
L465GYV may well still exist. As far as I can recall, it never disgraced itself, and was still serving as "Victor Four" when I left for pastures new in 1996, a case of jumping before a compulsory transfer, due to Tenure Policy, dropped soon afterwards. The car last had a V5 in 2002 and is currently on a SORN. It has not had an MOT since the records were computerised in 2005. Should it ever resurface, then I will happily present the owner with a copy. In the meantime, I will try to get someone less technically challenged, to post the photograph on here. Okay, it's not a Jaguar S-Type, but if it survives, it will be no less deserving of preservation.
As far as I can ascertain, there were 384 Jaguar S-Types bought by the Met between 1965 and 1968, when production ended, (some cars not being registered until early in 1969). To date, I have been able to trace 24 known survivors from that number. There are probably more than this figure suggests, as some previously de-registered cars resurface, (KYU419D being an example of this), or other cars on the DVLA database are taxed, or have new V5Cs issued after many years dormant.
I doubt whether this survival rate can be matched by the Rover P6 or 827, the Triumph 2500PI, or TC, or any of it's other near contemporaries. Commendable indeed, speaking volumes for the quality of these cars. Only the Morris Minor Pandas can beat them, and they lead much gentler lives, when compared to R/T (Area) or Traffic Cars.
Minsterjagman said:
As far as I can ascertain, there were 384 Jaguar S-Types bought by the Met between 1965 and 1968, when production ended, (some cars not being registered until early in 1969). To date, I have been able to trace 24 known survivors from that number. There are probably more than this figure suggests, as some previously de-registered cars resurface, (KYU419D being an example of this), or other cars on the DVLA database are taxed, or have new V5Cs issued after many years dormant.
That's a higher survival rate than I was expecting..!I wonder if any of the survivors are former X Div area cars?
Well, on the subject of survival rates, I have re-consulted my "database" once more (old ring binder), and I must amend the number of Jaguar S-Types bought by the Met to 377 vehicles. This is still subject to review, but I honestly think that I have exhausted all likely sources of information on the subject available to me to date. You never know, though, some more may come to light in the future, but here is what I have been able to trace so far......
DYY343-354C. All evaluation cars, used initially at least by the Driving School. 12 cars, no known survivors.
KYU360-419D. First order for operational vehicles to Met-specification. Nearly all black, but at least one green or grey. May have been used as Area, Traffic or Driving School cars, as traffpol cars were also black up to about this time. 60 cars. 3 known survivors.
NUW979-991E. All Traffic cars, all white by this time. 13 cars. No known survivors.
NVB250-349E. Fairly evenly split between black Area cars, and white Traffic cars. Some used by Hendon Driving School and others, oddly unmarked, appear in period newsreels crewed by plain clothes officers. 100 cars. 2 known survivors.
NYL568-574E. All white Traffic cars. 7 cars. No known survivors.
SUL327F. Unknown role. Does not appear to have survived.
SUL500F. Unknown role. Does not appear to have survived.
SUU18F. Unknown role. Does not appear to have survived.
SUU79F. Unknown role. Does not appear to have survived.
SUU391-500F. Biggest single group of registration numbers of these cars. Again, fairly evenly split between Area and Traffic cars, with some used by Hendon Driving School.110 cars. 9 known survivors.
SYO834F. Driving school car. Black or dark. Does not appear to have survived.
SYO958F. Driving School car. Does not appear to have survived.
SYR663F. Driving School car. Does not appear to have survived.
SYR665F. Driving School car. Black or dark. Does not appear to have survived.
WGK434-500G. Last order of S-Types. Some not registered until early in 1969, well after production had ceased. All originally had reflective-type number plates, the only Jaguar S-Types so fitted when in service. 67 cars, 10 known survivors.
The DVLA database has been fairly helpful, but is flawed in that it does still include some cars, which I know were scrapped years ago, while others which show as "No Trace", have subsequently resurfaced after decades off the road.
I may be repeating myself, but to qualify as "Surviving", in my definition, then it must have had some registration or licencing activity within the last ten years, or otherwise be known to be extant.
DYY343-354C. All evaluation cars, used initially at least by the Driving School. 12 cars, no known survivors.
KYU360-419D. First order for operational vehicles to Met-specification. Nearly all black, but at least one green or grey. May have been used as Area, Traffic or Driving School cars, as traffpol cars were also black up to about this time. 60 cars. 3 known survivors.
NUW979-991E. All Traffic cars, all white by this time. 13 cars. No known survivors.
NVB250-349E. Fairly evenly split between black Area cars, and white Traffic cars. Some used by Hendon Driving School and others, oddly unmarked, appear in period newsreels crewed by plain clothes officers. 100 cars. 2 known survivors.
NYL568-574E. All white Traffic cars. 7 cars. No known survivors.
SUL327F. Unknown role. Does not appear to have survived.
SUL500F. Unknown role. Does not appear to have survived.
SUU18F. Unknown role. Does not appear to have survived.
SUU79F. Unknown role. Does not appear to have survived.
SUU391-500F. Biggest single group of registration numbers of these cars. Again, fairly evenly split between Area and Traffic cars, with some used by Hendon Driving School.110 cars. 9 known survivors.
SYO834F. Driving school car. Black or dark. Does not appear to have survived.
SYO958F. Driving School car. Does not appear to have survived.
SYR663F. Driving School car. Does not appear to have survived.
SYR665F. Driving School car. Black or dark. Does not appear to have survived.
WGK434-500G. Last order of S-Types. Some not registered until early in 1969, well after production had ceased. All originally had reflective-type number plates, the only Jaguar S-Types so fitted when in service. 67 cars, 10 known survivors.
The DVLA database has been fairly helpful, but is flawed in that it does still include some cars, which I know were scrapped years ago, while others which show as "No Trace", have subsequently resurfaced after decades off the road.
I may be repeating myself, but to qualify as "Surviving", in my definition, then it must have had some registration or licencing activity within the last ten years, or otherwise be known to be extant.
Edited by Minsterjagman on Monday 30th October 15:52
Edited by Minsterjagman on Tuesday 31st October 09:15
"aeropilot". It is very difficult to ascertain where Area cars served. I do have some incomplete records for the Traffic cars, showing the dates of the fitting (usually when new) and removal, (usually just prior to disposal) of the "Autotempo" or "AT" speedometer heads. Very usefully these records show the fleet numbers, registration numbers, mileages, dates and garage to which attached at the time, of each car listed. I have no such records for Area cars, simply because they used normal speedometers.
This leaves me relying on the fading memories of those surviving officers who crewed these cars well over five decades ago. Until recently, I knew three old R/T car drivers who remembered working with these cars back in the day. Sadly, in the last two years, all three have passed away. Occasionally, I do get lucky, and find a photograph captioned in period by a long-retired officer, or sent to the LPP magazine by a relative of such an officer. This information is rare and valuable. I have only been able to positively place a handful of Area cars to specific stations because of this. For example, I have no idea where my area car, (SUU441F) served. I have received information from one retired officer that it may have been posted to Enfield as "Yankee 5", and from another that it was certainly a spare car, kept at Bow Street (covering "A" and "C"- Divisions). As it was fitted with "Mickey Mouse" lights from new, it was probably posted to an outer division, but this rule is not hard and fast, either. I have found a picture of SUU397F, (which survives!) taken when posted to Greenwich, (an outer division), and it has just the blue lamp fitted.
The truth is, I will probably never find out. Should I find any cars which were certainly posted to "X"- Division, then you will be the first to know.
This leaves me relying on the fading memories of those surviving officers who crewed these cars well over five decades ago. Until recently, I knew three old R/T car drivers who remembered working with these cars back in the day. Sadly, in the last two years, all three have passed away. Occasionally, I do get lucky, and find a photograph captioned in period by a long-retired officer, or sent to the LPP magazine by a relative of such an officer. This information is rare and valuable. I have only been able to positively place a handful of Area cars to specific stations because of this. For example, I have no idea where my area car, (SUU441F) served. I have received information from one retired officer that it may have been posted to Enfield as "Yankee 5", and from another that it was certainly a spare car, kept at Bow Street (covering "A" and "C"- Divisions). As it was fitted with "Mickey Mouse" lights from new, it was probably posted to an outer division, but this rule is not hard and fast, either. I have found a picture of SUU397F, (which survives!) taken when posted to Greenwich, (an outer division), and it has just the blue lamp fitted.
The truth is, I will probably never find out. Should I find any cars which were certainly posted to "X"- Division, then you will be the first to know.
Minsterjagman said:
"aeropilot". It is very difficult to ascertain where Area cars served. I do have some incomplete records for the Traffic cars, showing the dates of the fitting (usually when new) and removal, (usually just prior to disposal) of the "Autotempo" or "AT" speedometer heads. Very usefully these records show the fleet numbers, registration numbers, mileages, dates and garage to which attached at the time, of each car listed. I have no such records for Area cars, simply because they used normal speedometers.
This leaves me relying on the fading memories of those surviving officers who crewed these cars well over five decades ago. Until recently, I knew three old R/T car drivers who remembered working with these cars back in the day. Sadly, in the last two years, all three have passed away. Occasionally, I do get lucky, and find a photograph captioned in period by a long-retired officer, or sent to the LPP magazine by a relative of such an officer. This information is rare and valuable. I have only been able to positively place a handful of Area cars to specific stations because of this. For example, I have no idea where my area car, (SUU441F) served. I have received information from one retired officer that it may have been posted to Enfield as "Yankee 5", and from another that it was certainly a spare car, kept at Bow Street (covering "A" and "C"- Divisions). As it was fitted with "Mickey Mouse" lights from new, it was probably posted to an outer division, but this rule is not hard and fast, either. I have found a picture of SUU397F, (which survives!) taken when posted to Greenwich, (an outer division), and it has just the blue lamp fitted.
The truth is, I will probably never find out. Should I find any cars which were certainly posted to "X"- Division, then you will be the first to know.
Well, yes, those that served at the time are sadly fast disappearing. My Dad served from '56 to '86, and he would have been 97 this year, so even the youngest R/T driver that might have passed his Class 1 in the late sixties to have driven them in period in last few years would likely be 80+ now.This leaves me relying on the fading memories of those surviving officers who crewed these cars well over five decades ago. Until recently, I knew three old R/T car drivers who remembered working with these cars back in the day. Sadly, in the last two years, all three have passed away. Occasionally, I do get lucky, and find a photograph captioned in period by a long-retired officer, or sent to the LPP magazine by a relative of such an officer. This information is rare and valuable. I have only been able to positively place a handful of Area cars to specific stations because of this. For example, I have no idea where my area car, (SUU441F) served. I have received information from one retired officer that it may have been posted to Enfield as "Yankee 5", and from another that it was certainly a spare car, kept at Bow Street (covering "A" and "C"- Divisions). As it was fitted with "Mickey Mouse" lights from new, it was probably posted to an outer division, but this rule is not hard and fast, either. I have found a picture of SUU397F, (which survives!) taken when posted to Greenwich, (an outer division), and it has just the blue lamp fitted.
The truth is, I will probably never find out. Should I find any cars which were certainly posted to "X"- Division, then you will be the first to know.
As you say, the outer divs got the mickey mouse lights is not hard and fast either. I remember in the 70's in the P6 days, on X Div, the area cars in the 'inner' part of X Div, so Xray One at Acton and Xray Two at Ealing, were usually in no mickey mouse fit, but Xrays Three, Four, Five and Six at Southall, Hayes, Uxbridge and Ruislip were usually in mickey mouse fit, as they were further out in less built up beats. I would assume that the Jags had been the same.
The Legend 24v V6 and 4 speed autobox fitted to those 827 was typical Honda quality failed gearboxes are more likely due to abuse and lack of servicing 
(24k trans fluid changes) what the Police did get through was front brake discs (buckling) these cars were under braked for Police use , I knew of an officer that was a first response driver and that issue was regular feedback at the time 
this thread is fantastic regarding the history of these Jags 
sorry for taking off topic 
(24k trans fluid changes) what the Police did get through was front brake discs (buckling) these cars were under braked for Police use , I knew of an officer that was a first response driver and that issue was regular feedback at the time this thread is fantastic regarding the history of these Jags sorry for taking off topic Sardonicus said:
The Legend 24v V6 and 4 speed autobox fitted to those 827 was typical Honda quality failed gearboxes are more likely due to abuse and lack of servicing (24k trans fluid changes) what the Police did get through was front brake discs (buckling) these cars were under braked for Police use , I knew of an officer that was a first response driver and that issue was regular feedback at the time this thread is fantastic regarding the history of these Jags sorry for taking off topic
They were hopeless as RT cars, ok as M/way and divisional traffic though (24k trans fluid changes) what the Police did get through was front brake discs (buckling) these cars were under braked for Police use , I knew of an officer that was a first response driver and that issue was regular feedback at the time this thread is fantastic regarding the history of these Jags sorry for taking off topic The brakes were made of chocolate, I don’t recall any issues with the gearboxes or engines they were pretty solid tbf
In the wet they had to be pointing the way you wanted to go before you put the foot down otherwise they just went whichever way they were facing
uk66fastback said:
Shame an idiot previous owner put wire wheels on it. Strange that they are not putting its identity in the ad, as knowing which one it is of the few Met ones is part of its value.........or not as the case may be......which is making my spidey senses tingle a little??
This Daimler SP250 has been listed for sale by auction several times over the last few months, but has been withdrawn from sale at the last moment. From what I can gather, this car is a genuine Met Traffic Car, BUT has been stripped of nearly all its police features, painted green, has wire wheels fitted and, just to add insult to injury, been stripped of its original registration number by the vendor.
The estimated price also seems wildly optimistic to me. If you are in the market for such a car, there are two other Met SP250s currently for sale for far less, and they retain most of their original features and registration numbers. (See "Car and Classic", online).
Once you remove the original registration number from such an historic car, it becomes far less interesting, and, in my view, loses much of its historical significance.
The estimated price also seems wildly optimistic to me. If you are in the market for such a car, there are two other Met SP250s currently for sale for far less, and they retain most of their original features and registration numbers. (See "Car and Classic", online).
Once you remove the original registration number from such an historic car, it becomes far less interesting, and, in my view, loses much of its historical significance.
Minsterjagman said:
This Daimler SP250 has been listed for sale by auction several times over the last few months, but has been withdrawn from sale at the last moment. From what I can gather, this car is a genuine Met Traffic Car, BUT has been stripped of nearly all its police features, painted green, has wire wheels fitted and, just to add insult to injury, been stripped of its original registration number by the vendor.
The estimated price also seems wildly optimistic to me.
Hysterically optimistic in fact.The estimated price also seems wildly optimistic to me.
I'd be astonished if it made much more than half of that estimate.
As you say, you can currently buy a better one looking as it should for less money.
aeropilot said:
Minsterjagman said:
This Daimler SP250 has been listed for sale by auction several times over the last few months, but has been withdrawn from sale at the last moment. From what I can gather, this car is a genuine Met Traffic Car, BUT has been stripped of nearly all its police features, painted green, has wire wheels fitted and, just to add insult to injury, been stripped of its original registration number by the vendor.
The estimated price also seems wildly optimistic to me.
Hysterically optimistic in fact.The estimated price also seems wildly optimistic to me.
I'd be astonished if it made much more than half of that estimate.
As you say, you can currently buy a better one looking as it should for less money.
https://www.iconicauctioneers.com/1961-daimler-sp2...
Esher's third Rover 827, L465GYV, ("Victor Four"). This car was very reliable, like the first, ("H"- registration) but unlike the second, ("K"- registration) which developed gearbox trouble, which, I am told, is not typical of these cars. It was very well-suited to the long fast roads in this far south-western outpost of the MPD, and never really suffered from the brake problems encountered by cars in more central divisions. On the A3, it would indicate 132mph flat-out. If only it had been a Jaguar S-Type!
Edited by Minsterjagman on Saturday 11th November 09:20
Minsterjagman said:
Esher's third Rover 827, L465GYV, ("Victor Four"). This car was very reliable, like the first, ("H"- registration) but unlike the second, ("K"- registration) which developed gearbox trouble, which, I am told, is not typical of these cars. It was very well-suited to the long fast roads in this far south-western outpost of the MPD, and never really suffered from the brake problems encountered by cars in more central divisions. On the A3, it would indicate 132mph flat-out. If only it had been a Jaguar S-Type!
Interesting stuff Edited by Minsterjagman on Saturday 11th November 09:20
the later K plate probably got strangled with a catalyst system too (closed loop etc) the london suburb first response cars suffered bad with the disc issue IIRC the affected cars had the letters PD cast into them (long time ago) the UK built 4 dr 2.5 Legends suffered this too on the harder driven cars (I was a Honda tech way back when) the cars are heavy relative to the disc size anyway about 270mm IIRC and auto trans adding to the mix 
aeropilot said:
One of my Dad's friends in the job (who I got to know very well when I was a teenager) was TrafPol and an Insp at TDQ during the 1970's (he was also a pilot with a PPL and one of the senior people in the Met.Police Flying Club)
On matters of TrafPol S Types - my dad did a pretty good job of trying to kill himself in one. He crashed it at circa 100mph when on a shout on the Western Avenue outside the Hoover factory. He was about to overtake a truck when it decided to perform a U-turn through a gap in the central reservation (you could back then) - dad had nowhere to go and, to avoid burying himself under the back/side of the truck he tried to beat the truck to the gap in the reserve.....but misjudged it and collided with a concrete lamp-post. Neither he or his oppo were wearing seatbelts and that is what saved them - they were catapulted out the doors whilst the engine of the S Type ended up on the back seat.
I have the photos of the crash scene somewhere - I will dig them out.
CTFelix said:
aeropilot said:
One of my Dad's friends in the job (who I got to know very well when I was a teenager) was TrafPol and an Insp at TDQ during the 1970's (he was also a pilot with a PPL and one of the senior people in the Met.Police Flying Club)
On matters of TrafPol S Types - my dad did a pretty good job of trying to kill himself in one. He crashed it at circa 100mph when on a shout on the Western Avenue outside the Hoover factory. He was about to overtake a truck when it decided to perform a U-turn through a gap in the central reservation (you could back then) - dad had nowhere to go and, to avoid burying himself under the back/side of the truck he tried to beat the truck to the gap in the reserve.....but misjudged it and collided with a concrete lamp-post. Neither he or his oppo were wearing seatbelts and that is what saved them - they were catapulted out the doors whilst the engine of the S Type ended up on the back seat.
I have the photos of the crash scene somewhere - I will dig them out.
My Dad would have remembered your Dad's accident, he may well have told me about it as well. I remember when Met used to have a display tent at the Middlesex Show in Uxbridge back in the 70's and TrafDiv used to have a large display with old black white accident photos on display, and I do remember a few of PolAcc's involving white S-Types, as well as P6 Rovers, so maybe one of those was your Dad's.
He and his WO were lucky to survive that.
I remember my Dad was WO in Xray 3 in a S-Type and they were chasing a Ford Zephyr along Uxbridge Rd heading east past where Ealing Hospital now is, and chummy in the Zephyr lost control just before the bridge over the river Brent, and crashed through the stone parapet and into the river below. Until I moved away from the area I always thought of that whenever I drove past, and up until the mid 80's you could still see the different shade of the stone parapet, when they had to rebuild it.
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