Derren Brown ?

Author
Discussion

dwilkie

2,222 posts

186 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
I don't think it could be an electromagnet under the stage to be fair - wouldn't that cause havoc with the radio mics?

jackal

Original Poster:

11,248 posts

282 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
dwilkie said:
I don't think it could be an electromagnet under the stage to be fair - wouldn't that cause havoc with the radio mics?
its not magnets... in fact I can't recall any trick ever being done with magnets despite the fact that joe public often offer it up as the explanation (and that includes Copperfields flying which was most definitly not electromagnets)


Losander table is a rod running from the fingertip
if you ever watch it again look at Derrens right hand all the way through the trick


same principle as the all time classic "Zombie Ball"

Mr Trophy

6,808 posts

203 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
Scottish Widows hired him for 40K for 1 hour. My Dad said he was not very good, made a few mistakes.

jackal

Original Poster:

11,248 posts

282 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
drivin_me_nuts said:
speedy_thrills said:
He wrote a book about how he does most of his tricks.

As for the NLP thing it seems to me to just be using emotive language and creating mental images, something people flogging stuff have been doing for years. Only a few of his tricks have any psychological basis and as someone here mentioned on his TV show they screen people to find the ones that are most complaint with subtle suggestions.
it is quite a bit more than that. When NLP is used well it can be a highly effective tool for as the NLP'ers will say 'modelling excellence'. When done badly, as is more often than not the case it comes across as a clumsy way of attempting to mimic body language and at times bludgeon peoples into creating the results you want. In that respect it works. An example that often works in sales is get people to say three "yes's" in a row, as it tends to break down resistance to a sale as the "customer's" internalised objection and negative self talk is defeated.

The thing with NLP is often it is taught by those who have little understanding of using it subtly and effectively and at worst it is little more than psychological bullying of the worst kind. Most politicians tend to use it - very badly and it comes across as highly fake.

It is used in therapy rather a lot as a way of creating 'positive behaviours', with varying results. The mental imagery side is extraordinarily effective actually - stunningly so at times.
my brother did a 3 month course with Richard Bandler himself

its definitely VERY powerful when used correctly

dan1981

17,389 posts

199 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
jackal said:
dwilkie said:
I don't think it could be an electromagnet under the stage to be fair - wouldn't that cause havoc with the radio mics?
its not magnets... in fact I can't recall any trick ever being done with magnets despite the fact that joe public often offer it up as the explanation (and that includes Copperfields flying which was most definitly not electromagnets)


Losander table is a rod running from the fingertip
if you ever watch it again look at Derrens right hand all the way through the trick


same principle as the all time classic "Zombie Ball"
Go on then - how does Copperfield fly??????

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

217 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
dan1981 said:
jackal said:
dwilkie said:
I don't think it could be an electromagnet under the stage to be fair - wouldn't that cause havoc with the radio mics?
its not magnets... in fact I can't recall any trick ever being done with magnets despite the fact that joe public often offer it up as the explanation (and that includes Copperfields flying which was most definitly not electromagnets)


Losander table is a rod running from the fingertip
if you ever watch it again look at Derrens right hand all the way through the trick


same principle as the all time classic "Zombie Ball"
Go on then - how does Copperfield fly??????
He books a ticket and goes to the airport.

jackal

Original Poster:

11,248 posts

282 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
dan1981 said:
jackal said:
dwilkie said:
I don't think it could be an electromagnet under the stage to be fair - wouldn't that cause havoc with the radio mics?
its not magnets... in fact I can't recall any trick ever being done with magnets despite the fact that joe public often offer it up as the explanation (and that includes Copperfields flying which was most definitly not electromagnets)


Losander table is a rod running from the fingertip
if you ever watch it again look at Derrens right hand all the way through the trick


same principle as the all time classic "Zombie Ball"
Go on then - how does Copperfield fly??????
you don't want to know... its deeply disappointing

foreright

1,035 posts

242 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
dan1981 said:
jackal said:
dwilkie said:
I don't think it could be an electromagnet under the stage to be fair - wouldn't that cause havoc with the radio mics?
its not magnets... in fact I can't recall any trick ever being done with magnets despite the fact that joe public often offer it up as the explanation (and that includes Copperfields flying which was most definitly not electromagnets)


Losander table is a rod running from the fingertip
if you ever watch it again look at Derrens right hand all the way through the trick


same principle as the all time classic "Zombie Ball"
Go on then - how does Copperfield fly??????
Winch and rope - how else? - see http://www.bambinidisatana.com/illusionismo/copper... The bit in the glass box is pretty clever smile

hairykrishna

13,166 posts

203 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
dan1981 said:
Go on then - how does Copperfield fly??????
Wires.

shakotan

10,695 posts

196 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
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jackal said:
shakotan said:
I saw one of his shows when he was trying to guess pictures that people had drawn.

I picked up on one of the pictures, when he was telling the person to draw something, his speech contained keywords like 'wave' and 'sail' (although not directly in context, something like "Let your thoughts come over you like a wave, let your mind sail into the distance to think of an object to draw").

Sure enough, the person drew a crude picture of a yacht, which Derren 'guessed' correctly.
http://www.fabricedelaure.com/en/clipboard.php



or a variation thereof
Its possible, I suppose, but I picked up on the keywords during his speech and correctly guessed that the person would draw a yacht even before they started drawing.

jackal

Original Poster:

11,248 posts

282 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
foreright said:
dan1981 said:
jackal said:
dwilkie said:
I don't think it could be an electromagnet under the stage to be fair - wouldn't that cause havoc with the radio mics?
its not magnets... in fact I can't recall any trick ever being done with magnets despite the fact that joe public often offer it up as the explanation (and that includes Copperfields flying which was most definitly not electromagnets)


Losander table is a rod running from the fingertip
if you ever watch it again look at Derrens right hand all the way through the trick


same principle as the all time classic "Zombie Ball"
Go on then - how does Copperfield fly??????
Winch and rope - how else? - see http://www.bambinidisatana.com/illusionismo/copper... The bit in the glass box is pretty clever smile
indeed..

like so many good tricks though, the key is very simple/obvious but the devil is in the detail. Some of the angles copperfield used and 'self-propulsion' hand movements really elevated the whole effect imo, completely detracting from the idea of him being on wires. The bit with him walking upside down and mirroring someone else etc.. all these touches just add up and that's why he is who he is and why anyone who saw the act will never forget it.

the biggest giveaway was early on when in order to get the wires behind his arms/shoulders to fly on his front (as they clearly must be in front of his arms/torso for the opening when he is on his back) he performs a circular balletic gesture with his hands/arms

Edited by jackal on Wednesday 14th January 16:14

jackal

Original Poster:

11,248 posts

282 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
shakotan said:
jackal said:
shakotan said:
I saw one of his shows when he was trying to guess pictures that people had drawn.

I picked up on one of the pictures, when he was telling the person to draw something, his speech contained keywords like 'wave' and 'sail' (although not directly in context, something like "Let your thoughts come over you like a wave, let your mind sail into the distance to think of an object to draw").

Sure enough, the person drew a crude picture of a yacht, which Derren 'guessed' correctly.
http://www.fabricedelaure.com/en/clipboard.php



or a variation thereof
Its possible, I suppose, but I picked up on the keywords during his speech and correctly guessed that the person would draw a yacht even before they started drawing.
but that's the whole point... he gives it all that mentalist, psychology, suggestion stuff and that's what people look for and believe. That in itself is one huge piece of misdirection that characterises his work. He is primarily just another magician using regular tricks and. A big stage show like this that tours the country would only ever rely on techniques that are 100% cast iron and repeatable.

Killer2005

19,639 posts

228 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
Going to see his show in Harrogate on 3rd May thumbup

foreright

1,035 posts

242 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
jackal said:
indeed..

like so many good tricks though, the key is very simple/obvious but the devil is in the detail. Some of the angles copperfield used and 'self-propulsion' hand movements really elevated the whole effect imo, completely detracting from the idea of him being on wires. The bit with him walking upside down and mirroring someone else etc.. all these touches just add up and that's why he is who he is and why anyone who saw the act will never forget it.

the biggest giveaway was early on when in order to get the wires behind his arms/shoulders to fly on his front (as they clearly must be in front of his arms/torso for the opening when he is on his back) he performs a circular balletic gesture with his hands/arms
Yes not to detract from him at all - I still find it to be a pretty amazing spectacle even knowing how it's done.

I have a friend who does amazing sleight of hand tricks with coins and cards and it is completely jaw dropping even though I know exactly how he does it smile

jackal

Original Poster:

11,248 posts

282 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
foreright said:
jackal said:
indeed..

like so many good tricks though, the key is very simple/obvious but the devil is in the detail. Some of the angles copperfield used and 'self-propulsion' hand movements really elevated the whole effect imo, completely detracting from the idea of him being on wires. The bit with him walking upside down and mirroring someone else etc.. all these touches just add up and that's why he is who he is and why anyone who saw the act will never forget it.

the biggest giveaway was early on when in order to get the wires behind his arms/shoulders to fly on his front (as they clearly must be in front of his arms/torso for the opening when he is on his back) he performs a circular balletic gesture with his hands/arms
Yes not to detract from him at all - I still find it to be a pretty amazing spectacle even knowing how it's done.

I have a friend who does amazing sleight of hand tricks with coins and cards and it is completely jaw dropping even though I know exactly how he does it smile
yes absolutely.... its a total craft

I have a trick that copperfield did, its called "cigarette through coin" made my Eddie Gibson from the UK so its actaully an english invented effect. He did it once out close in the audience and did it so well... just amazingly done. If i did it you'd probably just laugh.

LDNrevs

8,911 posts

203 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
My old housemate starred on one of his shows - i.e the whole show was Derren and my mate. It was one of these 'better yourself' series and had Doctor Who in one episode... cant remember name. I do remember the task of revealing certain facts about my mate and his whereabouts almost every day in the run-up to the show. End result was my mate was 'cured' of his social anxiety and had a new-found confidence.. I still think it's bks and explained to him that he always had it in him and seemingly needed a hocus pocus man to convince him of that... either way, my mate reckons his life changed from that one TV show and related shenanigans.

foreright

1,035 posts

242 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
jackal said:
foreright said:
jackal said:
indeed..

like so many good tricks though, the key is very simple/obvious but the devil is in the detail. Some of the angles copperfield used and 'self-propulsion' hand movements really elevated the whole effect imo, completely detracting from the idea of him being on wires. The bit with him walking upside down and mirroring someone else etc.. all these touches just add up and that's why he is who he is and why anyone who saw the act will never forget it.

the biggest giveaway was early on when in order to get the wires behind his arms/shoulders to fly on his front (as they clearly must be in front of his arms/torso for the opening when he is on his back) he performs a circular balletic gesture with his hands/arms
Yes not to detract from him at all - I still find it to be a pretty amazing spectacle even knowing how it's done.

I have a friend who does amazing sleight of hand tricks with coins and cards and it is completely jaw dropping even though I know exactly how he does it smile
yes absolutely.... its a total craft

I have a trick that copperfield did, its called "cigarette through coin" made my Eddie Gibson from the UK so its actaully an english invented effect. He did it once out close in the audience and did it so well... just amazingly done. If i did it you'd probably just laugh.
Haha I have that trick actually - it's one of two I can actually do, the other being the coin through coke can one. That one is disappointing when you find out the 'trick' too although the effect is fab smile

37Flipper

496 posts

185 months

Wednesday 14th January 2009
quotequote all
jackal said:
lawrence567 said:
There is a lot of trickery & that involved.
I know the people were moving the table, it's when it was floating that gets me!
teh 'moving' table is probably the actual only true natural mentalist phenonmenon on the show
motor neurone movement by suggestion... its well documented and works

teh floating table was a standard trick, 'The Losander' table (see youtube) but improved with an anti gravity box


http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=Excalib...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BnreORgiT5s





Edited by jackal on Wednesday 14th January 12:53
I saw Derren Brown last year and I actually went on stage for the table trick. It works by the same way that ouija boards function. Its called idiomotors. If you saw his seance program he explained how it worked to all the participants, they just forgot mainly because they were scared scensoredtless. laugh I had my hands on the table when it started moving and I am sure the catalyst was when he put a bloke next to me (with incredibly sweaty hands) as it started moving almost straight away. He even fell over when it picked up speed as it moved across the stage.

If you read his book 'Trick of the Mind' he almost goes as far to say he's not sure he believes in NLP either. I found it a very interesting read although has made me even more sceptical then I was. The techniques used to improve your memory would be fantastic if I could actually remember how to use them.....

I am certainly not an expert on all the things he does, I do think he is a great performer and even if I knew how he did all of his tricks I would still pay to see him.

I am also glad to see that I am not the only one who had noticed the head thing. I too am convinced he does it to help him in his act.

Thanks

mouk786

1,263 posts

197 months

Thursday 15th January 2009
quotequote all
the number at the end of the show on the badge was also the date on the show we went to - so somehow the numbers are always adding up to xx08 (or whatever the year one) - ?

Also, lets assume the scroll at the end was somehow put into the box before it came down or swapped over - how did he do it? I presume all of the info bar the girl at the end was written o nthe scroll after it happened, so the scroll was produced when they had enough info to fill it up bbar the final girl who was probably pre picked fro mthe start.

jackal

Original Poster:

11,248 posts

282 months

Thursday 15th January 2009
quotequote all
mouk786 said:
Also, lets assume the scroll at the end was somehow put into the box before it came down or swapped over - how did he do it? I presume all of the info bar the girl at the end was written o nthe scroll after it happened, so the scroll was produced when they had enough info to fill it up bbar the final girl who was probably pre picked fro mthe start.
ok... the box is a well known prop or effect called the Malloy master prediction chest
its very well made, complicated and very expensive
the one Derren Brown used isn't even modified or made specially to order. Its looks just like the regular chest available on the Molly website.

a stangehand prepares the scroll in real time backstage as all the stuff is revealed by the audience throughout the show

the scroll when finished gets inserted or installed by the stagehand into the table that the malloy chest sits on
the chest only works in conjunction with the table/stand (like many many other illusions !)
I think the table is brought on stage when he faints.. doesnt really matter that much to be honest

the chest is lowered and brought onto the table
As it engages down onto the table a mechanism injects the scroll from the table (in the leg of the table) through a flap up into the chest and into the 'sphagetti jar'. These props are well made.. trust me. You could inspect the chest and you wouldn't spot any 'trap doors' underneath.

So the scroll gets from backstage into the chest, via the table. Very clever and you'd never think of it. Tables are for putting things on and chests only open at the lid. WRONG ! See how magic tricks so often rely on the automatic and everyday suppositions of the audience. Never take anything for granted or assume convention.

the performer opens chest and voila.... inside is the scroll with all the predictions.


as for the girl at the end, read my earlier post
she is picked out before the start of the show
her clothes are noted and these are written onto the end of the scroll (so the scroll can be finished before the "top psychic" routine with her starts)

Brown only pretends to write a number prediction behind his back on that piece of paper. Then he asks the specific girl who has been singled out earlier for a number and whatever she calls, he adds 3 then traces that number out onto the piece of paper through the envelope when convenient and with his left ahnd dropped and relaxed and with the palm and envelope most likely turned away from the audience. This is a well known magic prop, fingernail wirting or the swami gimmick. He writes the number afterwards whilst its in the envelope. Imagine holding a playing card with all your fingertips but then with your forefinger you move your nail on the back of it. The pressure of the nail applies ink or carbon onto the piece of paper via the trick envelope. Brown even apologises beforehand for his bad handwriting so that the audience is not alarmed or puzzled when they see his terrible writing (its not easy writing on something with a nail whilst you hold the item with the same hand). He then asks 2 other audience member sfor 2 numbers just to make the selection process seem authentic. he then opens the card and voila, the number is closest to hers and her clothes and appearance and height etc.. are already safely written down on teh scroll by the stagehand.





Edited by jackal on Thursday 15th January 02:49