Login | Register
SearchMy Stuff
My ProfileMy PreferencesMy Mates RSS Feed
1
3 4 5
Reply to Topic
Author Discussion

youngsyr

Original Poster:

6,992 posts

62 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Mave said:
Just think about how many commercial flights there actually are, every minute, every day of the year. One a minute around Heathrow? That's 500,000 sets of wings / parachutes to recover every year , presumably from the North Sea because you don't want to drop them on London. And then you may be doing 2,000mph in the wrong direction...

2000 mph would make a significant difference to Transatlantic flights, but to European flights is wouldn't make a huge difference in the total check-in / security / board / fly / off load / get baggage / customs cycle (which is where I think most of the effort should be!) but would massively change what you do with flight corridors; probably don't want 700mph and 2,000mph aircraft on the same flight corridors

Composites are great in stiffness, but poor in thermal protection. Titanium is good for thermal protection, but a bit of a pig to manufacture, and havier than aluminium alloys / composites.

Finally, I'd hate to think what the emissions of a rocket propulsion system would be, when most engine effort is aimed at reducing emissions (and fuel consumption)
I don't see many of those as being credible reasons not to pursue it:

i) recovery of wings/engines - the US military would have had you believe 10 years ago that they could send a 2 tonne bomb down a chimney from great altitude, so this shouldn't pose a significant problem for the engines. A bit of ingenuity about the wings (making them swing wing and folding into the body?) would solve the wing issue.

ii) using smaller rockets/slower speeds (but still increased over current speeds) for shorter flights would still bring a benefit.

iii) there wouldn't be an issue with flight corridors: the rocket hybrids would fly at around twice the height of a conventional jet airliner.

iv) heat sensitivity could be worked around by combining technologies, i.e. why not ceramic coat the composites around heat sensitive areas?

v) emissions, I don't really have an understanding of how rocket engines compare to jet engines on emissions, but I don't see any reason why we couldn't see the improvements in rocket engine efficiency that we've seen in other forms of engine efficiency once the green focus has been turned on them.

Hugo a Gogo

15,388 posts

103 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
but there is no advantage of using rockets in that scenario

Eric Mc

67,846 posts

135 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
You can't avoid the basic scientific fact that rockets gobble through their entire fuel load in seconds/minutes. That, and the fact that they are so inherently dangerous, will always mean that they are unsuitable for civil transport.

youngsyr

Original Poster:

6,992 posts

62 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
You can't avoid the basic scientific fact that rockets gobble through their entire fuel load in seconds/minutes. That, and the fact that they are so inherently dangerous, will always mean that they are unsuitable for civil transport.
I won't disagree on the first point as I know nothing about how fuel efficient (or not) rockets are compared to jet engines, but the second point (reliability) is surely just a case of refining the rocket?





Eric Mc

67,846 posts

135 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
youngsyr said:
Eric Mc said:
You can't avoid the basic scientific fact that rockets gobble through their entire fuel load in seconds/minutes. That, and the fact that they are so inherently dangerous, will always mean that they are unsuitable for civil transport.
I won't disagree on the first point as I know nothing about how fuel efficient (or not) rockets are compared to jet engines, but the second point (reliability) is surely just a case of refining the rocket?
There are limits to what can be done regarding reliability. A rocket, by its very nature, packs a huge amount of explosive power into as small a space as possible. Their very modus operandi is the release of that explosive power in a s controlled a manner as possible. That is a very, very difficult thing to do.
Even after almost 100 years of building sophisticated and advanced liquid fueled rockets we still have major problems with the things. No matter how well engineered they are, they have to contain massive amounts of energy and store corrosive and sensitive fuels at often extremely low temperatures and high pressures. Trying to make metals, plastics, rubbers, sealants, valves, pumps, plumbing etc that can withstand all of these factors is very hard.

And after the posts of those of us who know a bit about these things, you should be able to ascertain by now that, from a fuel consumption point of view, a rocket is nowhere near as efficient as other types of reaction engines.

Take the time to watch a live rocket launch and you will see how sensitive they are and how cautious you have to be when handling all that power.
Advertisement

Ultuous

1,624 posts

61 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
youngsyr said:
Eric Mc said:
You can't avoid the basic scientific fact that rockets gobble through their entire fuel load in seconds/minutes. That, and the fact that they are so inherently dangerous, will always mean that they are unsuitable for civil transport.
I won't disagree on the first point as I know nothing about how fuel efficient (or not) rockets are compared to jet engines, but the second point (reliability) is surely just a case of refining the rocket?
I posted a wiki link earlier in the thread that demonstrates the fuel efficiency of different engines in practice pretty well (in laymans terms, SFC is how much power you get out for the fuel you put in)... When I mentioned 'ideal cycles' the point is that there's a scientific limit to how efficient you can make any type of engine in terms of how much energy in the fuel you can turn into useful output - for example, with reciprocating engines IIRC it's around 25% for a petrol engine, 40% for a diesel!

Mave

1,041 posts

85 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
youngsyr said:
Mave said:
Just think about how many commercial flights there actually are, every minute, every day of the year. One a minute around Heathrow? That's 500,000 sets of wings / parachutes to recover every year , presumably from the North Sea because you don't want to drop them on London. And then you may be doing 2,000mph in the wrong direction...

2000 mph would make a significant difference to Transatlantic flights, but to European flights is wouldn't make a huge difference in the total check-in / security / board / fly / off load / get baggage / customs cycle (which is where I think most of the effort should be!) but would massively change what you do with flight corridors; probably don't want 700mph and 2,000mph aircraft on the same flight corridors

Composites are great in stiffness, but poor in thermal protection. Titanium is good for thermal protection, but a bit of a pig to manufacture, and havier than aluminium alloys / composites.

Finally, I'd hate to think what the emissions of a rocket propulsion system would be, when most engine effort is aimed at reducing emissions (and fuel consumption)
I don't see many of those as being credible reasons not to pursue it:

i) recovery of wings/engines - the US military would have had you believe 10 years ago that they could send a 2 tonne bomb down a chimney from great altitude, so this shouldn't pose a significant problem for the engines. A bit of ingenuity about the wings (making them swing wing and folding into the body?) would solve the wing issue.

ii) using smaller rockets/slower speeds (but still increased over current speeds) for shorter flights would still bring a benefit.

iii) there wouldn't be an issue with flight corridors: the rocket hybrids would fly at around twice the height of a conventional jet airliner.

iv) heat sensitivity could be worked around by combining technologies, i.e. why not ceramic coat the composites around heat sensitive areas?

v) emissions, I don't really have an understanding of how rocket engines compare to jet engines on emissions, but I don't see any reason why we couldn't see the improvements in rocket engine efficiency that we've seen in other forms of engine efficiency once the green focus has been turned on them.
(i) if you go for the recovery option, simply the logistics alone would be prohibitively expensive. Can you imagine recovering, inspecting, and refitting those wings 4 or 5 times a day per aircraft? Swing wing is a way forward, but you then get into weight / cost / complexity issues.

(ii) yep, but the reduced benefits bring reduced income, so the business case looks less attractive

(iii) you still need to take off and land smile

(iv) what happens when you get a bird strike which damages the ceramic? Would you be happy to fly at 2,000mph on an aircraft where the thermal barrier was damaged?

(v) you could see improvements, but even with significant development you're still going to have more emissions in aboslute terms

coanda

1,754 posts

60 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
You can't avoid the basic scientific fact that rockets gobble through their entire fuel load in seconds/minutes. That, and the fact that they are so inherently dangerous, will always mean that they are unsuitable for civil transport.
Hybrid rockets look pretty good.

My research suggests that hybrid rockets:

- Are very simple in their architecture,
- Can be throttled including stop and restart,
- Can use safe fuel components,
- Can produce only steam as a by-product of combustion,
- Can be turned around relatively fast given a ready supply of solid fuel filled combustion chambers.

Downside is the need to carry around a pressurised tank, and the thrust production system is not as compact as a liquid fuel rocket.

Eric Mc

67,846 posts

135 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
For how long can a hybrid rocket produce meaningful thrust?

coanda

1,754 posts

60 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
For how long can a hybrid rocket produce meaningful thrust?
For as long as the components of the engine remain operational and the engine is supplied with fuel (and lubricant if necessary).

But I know what you are getting at.

It would be impractical in the extreme to create a rocket only aircraft designed to transport people over long distances.

Simpo Two

54,613 posts

135 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Perhaps we need to research transporters, a la Star Trek.

coanda

1,754 posts

60 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Simpo Two said:
Perhaps we need to research transporters, a la Star Trek.
I think we'd have more luck researching 'reactionless' 'anti-grav' machines....

Eric Mc

67,846 posts

135 months

[news] 
Saturday 4th August 2012 quote quote all
coanda said:
For as long as the components of the engine remain operational and the engine is supplied with fuel (and lubricant if necessary).

But I know what you are getting at.

It would be impractical in the extreme to create a rocket only aircraft designed to transport people over long distances.
And that is the crux of the problem with any rocket, liquid fueled, solid fueled or hybrid - they just use their fuel too rapidly for any practical commercial application.

Eric Mc

67,846 posts

135 months

[news] 
Saturday 4th August 2012 quote quote all
I wonder how many grannies and toddlers would be happy with the 3 to 4 G acceleration usually associated with even the most benign of rockets.

I am sure a rocket based aircraft/spacecraft can and will be used by members of the public as a "fun" and "thrill" type experience. Indeed, it is definitely going to happen fairly soon -



But as a practical, economic and routine way of getting from A to B - not likely.

dr_gn

7,009 posts

54 months

[news] 
Saturday 4th August 2012 quote quote all
Remind me why a rocket was proposed - apparently for atmospheric flight (at 30,000ft)?

Why would you even consider a rocket at that altitude?

dr_gn

7,009 posts

54 months

[news] 
Saturday 4th August 2012 quote quote all
Mave said:
Composites are great in stiffness, but poor in thermal protection. Titanium is good for thermal protection, but a bit of a pig to manufacture, and havier than aluminium alloys / composites.
Carbon F1 brakes do a pretty good job of withstanding high temperatures without being heavy. If you look up Lockheed's (ancient) Hypersonic Glide Vehicle, it's wing leading edges were composite material and were designed to withstand 3,000F.

Just becasue something wasn't possible a decade ago doesn't mean it's not possible now, especially w.r.t. materials technology.

Hugo a Gogo

15,388 posts

103 months

[news] 
Saturday 4th August 2012 quote quote all
dr_gn said:
Remind me why a rocket was proposed - apparently for atmospheric flight (at 30,000ft)?

Why would you even consider a rocket at that altitude?
quite

rocket advantages: extreme acceleration and can be used outside the oxygen-bearing atmosphere

neither of those are advantages for passenger flights

Mave

1,041 posts

85 months

[news] 
Sunday 5th August 2012 quote quote all
dr_gn said:
Mave said:
Composites are great in stiffness, but poor in thermal protection. Titanium is good for thermal protection, but a bit of a pig to manufacture, and havier than aluminium alloys / composites.
Carbon F1 brakes do a pretty good job of withstanding high temperatures without being heavy. If you look up Lockheed's (ancient) Hypersonic Glide Vehicle, it's wing leading edges were composite material and were designed to withstand 3,000F.

Just becasue something wasn't possible a decade ago doesn't mean it's not possible now, especially w.r.t. materials technology.
But how shock proof are they? I honestly don't know the answer; instinctively I'd expect them to very stiff, but not very tough, and intolerant of defects

Eric Mc

67,846 posts

135 months

[news] 
Sunday 5th August 2012 quote quote all
And they are ditched after every race. Commercial airlines wouldn't be mad keen to throw away a substantial part of the aircraft after each flight.

dr_gn

7,009 posts

54 months

[news] 
Sunday 5th August 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
And they are ditched after every race. Commercial airlines wouldn't be mad keen to throw away a substantial part of the aircraft after each flight.
They're ditched after each race becasue they're mechanically worn through braking.
1
3 4 5
Reply to Topic