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Jim H

Original Poster:

875 posts

190 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
I’m a big believer in the saying: ‘ never judge a man until you’ve spent a day walking in his shoes’

A lot of stuff has been mentioned about the ‘ salvager’ and his jester hat.

He’s a big Marillion fan. The lyrics to one of their songs set him in motion. And off he went…

The Jester is a Marillion motive. I know.I’m a big Marillion fan myself- unfortunately!

Ultimately, this guy set out on his own accord , on his own mission.

To ultimately recover a legend that had been lost.

I doubt he had any idea the ramifications of his own actions what he did over 20 years ago - and where it would lead to. Time ultimately moves on, and peoples perspective changes.

But he did it.

I’m sure, his intentions were and are absolutely true.

Guys, don’t kick the the fella.

It’s a helluva emotive subject .

At least he got off his backside and did something about it.

A bit like DC.

Panamax

4,112 posts

35 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
flatlandsman said:
can we please try and keep this about the record boat
^^^ This, this and this.

As mentioned earlier, I'd love to see a full, modern, lookalike replica running on plane at Coniston. Doesn't have to be an exact copy, doesn't have to be crazy speed, just fast enough and noisy enough to capture the thing in a way those old movie clips can't quite manage. On a modern HD recording I think it would look absolutely astounding.

The closest I've ever seen was on a beach in the US (Long Island) when an F1 Powerboat went past at serious speed. Anything over 100 mph on water is very, very fast.

Jordie Barretts sock

4,382 posts

20 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
Isn't there a replica? K777 or something?


Jim H

Original Poster:

875 posts

190 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
One last thought on this.

It’s not the ordinary man who listens to a song, dives to the bottom of a lake, recovers a legend.

Then spends a huge amount of time and personal expense over 20 years.

Who else would do that?

I get that someone like this can come across abrupt, rude, obstinate?

Sometimes it takes that, to achieve one’s goals.

I really don’t think he should be vilified .

Night Fellas.

ecsrobin

17,174 posts

166 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
Jim H said:
I’m a big believer in the saying: ‘ never judge a man until you’ve spent a day walking in his shoes’

A lot of stuff has been mentioned about the ‘ salvager’ and his jester hat.

He’s a big Marillion fan. The lyrics to one of their songs set him in motion. And off he went…

The Jester is a Marillion motive. I know.I’m a big Marillion fan myself- unfortunately!

Ultimately, this guy set out on his own accord , on his own mission.

To ultimately recover a legend that had been lost.

I doubt he had any idea the ramifications of his own actions what he did over 20 years ago - and where it would lead to. Time ultimately moves on, and peoples perspective changes.

But he did it.

I’m sure, his intentions were and are absolutely true.

Guys, don’t kick the the fella.

It’s a helluva emotive subject .

At least he got off his backside and did something about it.

A bit like DC.
I mean you created this thread knowing exactly the direction it would go……..


Also why do you write all your posts like you’re sending someone a letter?

Jim H

Original Poster:

875 posts

190 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
ecsrobin said:
Jim H said:
I’m a big believer in the saying: ‘ never judge a man until you’ve spent a day walking in his shoes’

A lot of stuff has been mentioned about the ‘ salvager’ and his jester hat.

He’s a big Marillion fan. The lyrics to one of their songs set him in motion. And off he went…

The Jester is a Marillion motive. I know.I’m a big Marillion fan myself- unfortunately!

Ultimately, this guy set out on his own accord , on his own mission.

To ultimately recover a legend that had been lost.

I doubt he had any idea the ramifications of his own actions what he did over 20 years ago - and where it would lead to. Time ultimately moves on, and peoples perspective changes.

But he did it.

I’m sure, his intentions were and are absolutely true.

Guys, don’t kick the the fella.

It’s a helluva emotive subject .

At least he got off his backside and did something about it.

A bit like DC.
I mean you created this thread knowing exactly the direction it would go……..


Also why do you write all your posts like you’re sending someone a letter?
NP&E is a few slots down.

I’m sure there will be some folk there to disagree with.

Night night.

hidetheelephants

24,650 posts

194 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
Jim H said:
I’m sure, his intentions were and are absolutely true.
Let's not stray into hagiography; he pestered DC's relatives until they presumably gave permission just to get some peace. Starting this thread knowing where it will go but complaining when it does is cant.

Jordie Barretts sock

4,382 posts

20 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
Well, unless you want this thread closed, I suggest we don't bite when Jim posts hoping for a reply.

Otherwise it'll be yet another ex Bluebird thread.

99hjhm

426 posts

187 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
Equus said:
It planed much better (ie. better than not at all) once ballasted, certainly, but still nothing like as easily as it did at Loch Fad.

Neither do I accept that the difference in trim that is evident from the photos can be explained entirely by weight of fuel, foam and pilot, but that's not an observation you are obliged to defend. hippy
Did it not plane much better due to the new planing wedges been optimised for working at much slower speed? Not disagreeing with what you are saying with the weight or CoG.

Fantastic news it’s finally going to Coniston, having visited the lakes many times and the Ruskin three. I too can’t see how it could ever run with the road network up there and the let’s go green approach to everything these days but I do hope it will be seen on the lake somehow.

PinkTornado

819 posts

63 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
99hjhm said:
Did it not plane much better due to the new planing wedges been optimised for working at much slower speed? Not disagreeing with what you are saying with the weight or CoG.
Changing the planing wedge angles was once mooted on his site but ultimately didn't happen.

flatlandsman

764 posts

8 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
I know little of the struggle between the two parties, only snippets.

I felt the way certain things happened were from the off rather odd.

My main issue is with the way the wreckage was bought ashore.

This is a vessel that a man died in, it almost ought to have been left down on the bottom of the lake, but that is a different argument.

It certainly should NOT have been raised back onto dry land with some bloke in a stupid hat sitting on it as if he had just killed something in a Safari hunt, I found that utterly objectionable and very disrespectful. That told me plenty.

However as others have said the sheer will to do this was clear and the family were keen for it to happen so that is not an issue but something just felt off about the way that whole bringing the boat ashore was done it felt wrong, and rather too much about the man who salvaged and less about the man that was lost which I felt was a huge shame.


hidetheelephants

24,650 posts

194 months

Sunday 11th February
quotequote all
Jordie Barretts sock said:
Well, unless you want this thread closed, I suggest we don't bite when Jim posts hoping for a reply.

Otherwise it'll be yet another ex Bluebird thread.
He started the thread? What purpose is served by self-censoring? Because of a litigious bellend who has clutched what isn't his to his bosom for half of its benighted existence? Poor show.

Jordie Barretts sock

4,382 posts

20 months

Monday 12th February
quotequote all
OK, fair enough. I just know what happens usually.

Equus

16,980 posts

102 months

Monday 12th February
quotequote all
PinkTornado said:
99hjhm said:
Did it not plane much better due to the new planing wedges been optimised for working at much slower speed? Not disagreeing with what you are saying with the weight or CoG.
Changing the planing wedge angles was once mooted on his site but ultimately didn't happen.
The planing wedges contribute only a small proportion of the hydrodynamic lift at lower speeds in any case: it's predominantly the main hull/sponson forms that lift the boat initially, with the planing shoes taking over as speeds rise.

If it wasn't for the fact that the photos show a distinct difference in trim (anyone with experience of boats will tell you from gut feeling alone that this is more than can be attributed to an 80 gallon fuel load and the pilot), I'd be tempted to attribute the difference wholly to the fact that they were running in much rougher water than the glass-calms that Campbell used to depend on for record attempts. Rougher water helps 'unstick' hydroplanes (and was undoubtedly a factor at Loch Fad, but not enough to explain the difference on its own, I think).

Bluebird was always pretty marginal at getting up onto the plane. Apart from having to relocate the front spar because it originally interfered with her bow wave at lower speeds, they had to add a set of 'strakes' or fins under the nose (along with angles on the internal edge of the sponsons) to help lift her. This is her original form, without the strakes:



And this shows them fitted:



In addition to which, it was always a balancing act between adding thrust gradually enough to make her plane, whilst not so fast that the nose-down moment cause by the thrust line being above the centre of hydrodynamic drag made her 'plough' or 'submarine'.

This was to a large extent deliberate: it was well known, even back when she was designed, that the big risk with conventional (2 points fo'ard) 3-pointers at speed was front-end lift. It was also the reason behind the separate sponsons. Better to have to nanny the boat onto the plane, than to erode the safety margin at high speed. As it turned out, that safety margin proved insufficient after all (albeit at a speed 70mph faster than her original design speed).

They knew that the reverse three-pointer arrangement used by Cobb's Crusader was aerodynamically more stable, but K7's design was partly a hangover from the original R37-engined, prop-driven design (the so-called 'C-boat', which had been designed to take the Harmsworth Trophy, not the WWSR), and partly paranoia over the loadings on a single forward planing shoe, following Cobb's accident.

Equus

16,980 posts

102 months

Monday 12th February
quotequote all
Jim H said:
I get that someone like this can come across abrupt, rude, obstinate?

Sometimes it takes that, to achieve one’s goals.
There's a difference between being 'driven' and being an ahole, and you don't need to be the latter to achieve goals.

The irony here, of course, is that the man whose boat (and body) he recovered - who achieved far more than Smith did - was universally noted and respected for being a thoroughly decent chap.

hidetheelephants said:
...a litigious bellend who has clutched what isn't his to his bosom...
Possibly worth noting that this is also a man who - by his own admission - took legal action against his own mother, father and sister (and largely lost)!

as the man himself said:
most definitely not a lawyer. And yet everything I do tries to turn me into one
He could have played nicely with the Ruskin and the Campbells - without all the threats, attempted bullying and name-calling - and come out of it with the slice of the cake he wanted.

He could have played nicely with the Lottery Commission and funded a restoration by a professional company (Duxford was mentioned in the early days) that would have taken 5 years, not 20.

He could have played nicely with the LDNPA, and run the boat at Coniston (with proper organisation and visitor control, not as a Wild West circus).

He brought the whole sorry mess upon himself.


Edited by Equus on Monday 12th February 10:45

Panamax

4,112 posts

35 months

Monday 12th February
quotequote all
Coincidentally, I saw a short clip on BBC news this morning about K7 going on display at Coniston.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-6825...




Jim H

Original Poster:

875 posts

190 months

Monday 12th February
quotequote all
Equus said:
PinkTornado said:
99hjhm said:
Did it not plane much better due to the new planing wedges been optimised for working at much slower speed? Not disagreeing with what you are saying with the weight or CoG.
Changing the planing wedge angles was once mooted on his site but ultimately didn't happen.
The planing wedges contribute only a small proportion of the hydrodynamic lift at lower speeds in any case: it's predominantly the main hull/sponson forms that lift the boat initially, with the planing shoes taking over as speeds rise.

If it wasn't for the fact that the photos show a distinct difference in trim (anyone with experience of boats will tell you from gut feeling alone that this is more than can be attributed to an 80 gallon fuel load and the pilot), I'd be tempted to attribute the difference wholly to the fact that they were running in much rougher water than the glass-calms that Campbell used to depend on for record attempts. Rougher water helps 'unstick' hydroplanes (and was undoubtedly a factor at Loch Fad, but not enough to explain the difference on its own, I think).

Bluebird was always pretty marginal at getting up onto the plane. Apart from having to relocate the front spar because it originally interfered with her bow wave at lower speeds, they had to add a set of 'strakes' or fins under the nose (along with angles on the internal edge of the sponsons) to help lift her. This is her original form, without the strakes:



And this shows them fitted:



In addition to which, it was always a balancing act between adding thrust gradually enough to make her plane, whilst not so fast that the nose-down moment cause by the thrust line being above the centre of hydrodynamic drag made her 'plough' or 'submarine'.

This was to a large extent deliberate: it was well known, even back when she was designed, that the big risk with conventional (2 points fo'ard) 3-pointers at speed was front-end lift. It was also the reason behind the separate sponsons. Better to have to nanny the boat onto the plane, than to erode the safety margin at high speed. As it turned out, that safety margin proved insufficient after all (albeit at a speed 70mph faster than her original design speed).

They knew that the reverse three-pointer arrangement used by Cobb's Crusader was aerodynamically more stable, but K7's design was partly a hangover from the original R37-engined, prop-driven design (the so-called 'C-boat', which had been designed to take the Harmsworth Trophy, not the WWSR), and partly paranoia over the loadings on a single forward planing shoe, following Cobb's accident.
You have some fantastic photos Equus.

Thank you so much for sharing, and your knowledge about K7 is a joy to read.

I do apologise to those that I upset yesterday, unreservedly.

Yes, I started the thread. Did I know where it was going, I haven’t got a crystal ball unfortunately .

I was just trying to give a balanced point of view - probably made a bit of a mess of it to be honest.

But I always think there are two sides to every disagreement.

This is a photo that hangs in my house. It’s a bit wrinkled and needs properly framing.

I first saw it when I was playing pool one night decades ago in a hotel. Time moved on and would you believe it, a friend of mine bought the hotel.

I asked him one day: “any chance I can can have that photo of DC on the water?” The previous owner (of the hotel) claimed he knew nothing about it. But my mate tracked it down

I think it’s actually a real classic.

It’s on the inlay of David Tremayne’s book.

Jim H

Original Poster:

875 posts

190 months

Monday 12th February
quotequote all

Gary C

12,521 posts

180 months

Monday 12th February
quotequote all
Never seen that one before

Arrow straight track

99hjhm

426 posts

187 months

Monday 12th February
quotequote all
Gary C said:
Never seen that one before

Arrow straight track
The Christmas Day run, 1966. Taken practically by chance by a walker on the Grizedale forest side of Coniston. I have a huge but poor quality framed print of exactly the same shot.