More Argie Bargie

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AstonZagato

12,728 posts

211 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
im said:
andymadmak said:
you honestly think that they would have hesitated to attack the UK carrier group if they had found it? (Peruvian plan or not!)
What - and commited suicide? confused

Anyway, thats for another thread rolleyes

The other analogies stand, HMS Sheffield etc...
Plenty of brave Argentinian pilots were prepared to pitch themselves against the task force (and improbably tiny odds of survival). Many paid the ultimate price. Why would their sailors have not made the same risky choice?

IroningMan

10,154 posts

247 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
AstonZagato said:
Plenty of brave Argentinian pilots were prepared to pitch themselves against the task force (and improbably tiny odds of survival). Many paid the ultimate price. Why would their sailors have not made the same risky choice?
Because, of course, they were all innocent conscripts on their way home after a bit of messing about in boats.

im

34,302 posts

218 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
Kinda homing in on the wrong thing here aint we rolleyes

HMS SHEFFIELD then.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

247 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
DJRC said:
What is your point? Genuine question, because you have lost me.
I would not be willing to go and would not be willing to send British people to die in defence of the Falklands.

Hopefully the Argentinians are not willing to die in the cause of winning back Las Malvinas either.

So hopefully this whole affair will remain nothing more than one of many silly border skirmishes which plague our planet.

Ordinary_Chap

7,520 posts

244 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
I'm surprised by some of the reactions here.

The Belgrano was a ship of war with trained personnel on it and as the countries were at war it was a legitimate target.

Comparing it to a football tragedy is ridiculous in the extreme.

hidetheelephants

24,684 posts

194 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
im said:
andymadmak said:
you honestly think that they would have hesitated to attack the UK carrier group if they had found it? (Peruvian plan or not!)
What - and commited suicide? confused
more like, and won the war... Your cute cuddly view of the Argies is not one that they themselves share. I suggest you read something other than the Guardian
Not sure about winning the war, but a cruiser with 15 6" guns is not something you want anywhere near your task force; with the crappy weather and visibility typical of the South Atlantic it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the Belgrano could quite easily sink or disable several ships before being sunk or otherwise repelled.

andymadmak

14,623 posts

271 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
I would not be willing to go and would not be willing to send British people to die in defence of the Falklands.
I would. Both. Life without principles is life in zoo.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Hopefully the Argentinians are not willing to die in the cause of winning back Las Malvinas either.
Hopefully. Past experience suggests otherwise, but I do hope you are right.

Ozzie Osmond said:
So hopefully this whole affair will remain nothing more than one of many silly border skirmishes which plague our planet.
Hopefully. However, those who are not prepared to defend the rule of law deserve no protection from it. Those who are not prepared to defend their home deserve no home. Those who are not prepared to fight for the rights of others do not deserve to have their own rights defended. All IMHO.

im

34,302 posts

218 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
Argentinian task force commander agrees with the British assessment of the situation. Why don't you?
I'd be interested to read that...got a link?

andymadmak

14,623 posts

271 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
im said:
I'd be interested to read that...got a link?
I do hate to quote Wiki, but I'm a bit to busy this morning to find the other articles and papers I have read in the past. However, I think the wiki pages are probably a fair summary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano#...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Exclusion_Zone




Tyre Smoke

23,018 posts

262 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
I would not be willing to go and would not be willing to send British people to die in defence of the Falklands.
I would. Both. Life without principles is life in zoo.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Hopefully the Argentinians are not willing to die in the cause of winning back Las Malvinas either.
Hopefully. Past experience suggests otherwise, but I do hope you are right.

Ozzie Osmond said:
So hopefully this whole affair will remain nothing more than one of many silly border skirmishes which plague our planet.
Hopefully. However, those who are not prepared to defend the rule of law deserve no protection from it. Those who are not prepared to defend their home deserve no home. Those who are not prepared to fight for the rights of others do not deserve to have their own rights defended. All IMHO.
clap Well said!

I suspect half of the appeasers on here are the sort that would be off to the town hall or police station if their comfortable lifestyle was upset by a traveller encampment outside their house.

Stand up and defend your own. Whether that be your car, house, family, or country.

andymadmak

14,623 posts

271 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/896...

Interesting information from the Telegraph

Puggit

48,520 posts

249 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
hidetheelephants said:
andymadmak said:
im said:
andymadmak said:
you honestly think that they would have hesitated to attack the UK carrier group if they had found it? (Peruvian plan or not!)
What - and commited suicide? confused
more like, and won the war... Your cute cuddly view of the Argies is not one that they themselves share. I suggest you read something other than the Guardian
Not sure about winning the war, but a cruiser with 15 6" guns is not something you want anywhere near your task force; with the crappy weather and visibility typical of the South Atlantic it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the Belgrano could quite easily sink or disable several ships before being sunk or otherwise repelled.
It wasn't just a cruiser - it was a cruiser group (2 destroyers also in the group). There could have been submarine support too.

Regiment

2,799 posts

160 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
Ordinary_Chap said:
Dramatic over reaction!

I thought it was quite funny and I'm ex-RN if that helps!
The fact that your ex-RN really doesn't mean anything in this argument but it'd be the same as posting a picture of HMS Sheffield and laughing at the dead RN personnel that died. I have as much respect for the Royal Navy personnel who died during the Falklands as I do the Argentinian sailors who died in the Belgrano, yes it was an act of war and feel that it was right T sink an enemy warship but making a joke of the grave of hundreds of sailors is disgusting.

ninja-lewis

4,253 posts

191 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
im said:
a Peruvian peace proposal was still on the table at the time of the attack.
The Peruvian plan was nothing more than a rehash of Haig's proposals (Haig was the US Secretary of State who carried out the "shuttle diplomacy"). Even Haig himself referred to it as "Haig in a Poncho". Crucially Argentina had already rejected Haig's proposals on April 30.

The sinking of the Belgrano was a far from being the first act of the conflict. The day before, Argentine launched over 40 sorties on May 1 to find and attack the task force. Only a handful came near, of which most were promptly shot down by Sea Harriers. Despite these failures, Argentina claimed it had shot down 11 Sea Harriers and seriously damaged several ships, including Hermes. So it is pretty clear, that as far as both sides were concerned, we were at war over 24 hours before the sinking.

Neither incidents had any effect on peace negotiations, which continued right up to the landings at San Carlos. Ultimately there was never going to be a peaceful resolution: we could not accept anything less than full withdrawal from the Argentines; and the Argentines could not accept form of withdrawal on their part either.

jmorgan

36,010 posts

285 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
They could not have taken any risks with Argentine ships, the captain of the Belgrano I am sure I have read has said they were after the UK carriers and I am sure the air craft carrier captain? Recent releases only confirm the obvious?

You don't have to look far to find examples of what happens to ships with no air cover.

Ordinary_Chap

7,520 posts

244 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
Regiment said:
Ordinary_Chap said:
Dramatic over reaction!

I thought it was quite funny and I'm ex-RN if that helps!
The fact that your ex-RN really doesn't mean anything in this argument but it'd be the same as posting a picture of HMS Sheffield and laughing at the dead RN personnel that died. I have as much respect for the Royal Navy personnel who died during the Falklands as I do the Argentinian sailors who died in the Belgrano, yes it was an act of war and feel that it was right T sink an enemy warship but making a joke of the grave of hundreds of sailors is disgusting.
Still and utterly over the top reaction, It's a joke and nothing more and I very much doubt that picture is of the grave but some random part of the sea.

Really, I think you need to lighten up!

All the best,
Lee

Regiment

2,799 posts

160 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
Ordinary_Chap said:
Still and utterly over the top reaction, It's a joke and nothing more and I very much doubt that picture is of the grave but some random part of the sea.

Really, I think you need to lighten up!

All the best,
Lee
You believe it was over the top, I believe it was me standing up against a sick joke.

Ordinary_Chap

7,520 posts

244 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
Regiment said:
Ordinary_Chap said:
Still and utterly over the top reaction, It's a joke and nothing more and I very much doubt that picture is of the grave but some random part of the sea.

Really, I think you need to lighten up!

All the best,
Lee
You believe it was over the top, I believe it was me standing up against a sick joke.
Fair enough, shall we move on?

Lee

onyx39

11,129 posts

151 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
Cameron seems fairly happy for a rematch if need be:

"Britain is ready to fight another war to protect the Falkland Islands, David Cameron warned today.
After months of rising tensions over the future of the islands, the Prime Minister made clear for the first time that Britain is prepared to mount a repeat of the 1982 conflict if they are threatened.
Asked if the UK would fight to keep the Falklands, he replied: ‘Of course we would.
‘We have strong defences in place on the Falkland Islands. That is absolutely key - we have fast jets stationed there, we have troops stationed on the Falklands.
‘I get regular reports on this entire issue because I want to know that our defences are strong, our resolve is extremely strong.’
Mr Cameron insisted that despite defence cuts, Britain would be able to defend the islands again, as Margaret Thatcher did in 1982 at a cost of more than 900 lives - 255 of them British servicemen.
‘At £35 billion a year, we still have one of the top five defence budgets in the world; and we’ll go on having that scale of defences and we’re actually re-equipping our armed services in a very, very effective way,’ he told the BBC’s Andrew Marr programme.
A war of words over the future of the Falklands, known to Argentina as Las Malvinas, has erupted since the re-election of Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner as the country’s President.


The fiery Argentine leader attempted to thrust a package stuffed with documents about her country’s claim to the British territory into Mr Cameron’s hands in an encounter at a recent G20 summit.
To her fury, the Prime Minister repeatedly refused to accept it, insisting she should respect the views of the islanders who want to remain British.
Last week, as her popularity at home plummets, she published an open letter to Mr Cameron claiming that Argentina had been ‘forcibly stripped’ of the islands and demanding negotiations over sovereignty.
The letter was timed to coincide with the 180th anniversary of what Argentina claims is a British occupation.
Buenos Aires has been further infuriated by the British government’s decision to name a large section of territory in Antarctica after the Queen.
It has been accused of ‘intimidating’ British cruise ships near the Falkland Islands.
Six incidents have occurred in the past two months where protesters or industrial action by militant unions have disrupted vessels bound for the islands, the Government said.
They include officials refusing entry to Argentine ports or delaying ships, masked militants attacking and ransacking shipping company offices and cruise itineraries either altered, or abandoned, to appease locals.
The Falkland Islands administration has responded to the tensions by calling a referendum, to be held in March, which is expected to see an overwhelming majority of residents vote in favour of retaining the present status as a British overseas territory.
Lord West, the former head of the British Navy, said Mrs Kirchner was behaving in a ‘very stupid way’ over the islands,
He insisted that he did not think any military action was imminent from Argentina, despite her sabre-rattling, but warned the situation could escalate.
'It would be laughable if it wasn’t for the fact that these things sometimes lead to really nasty things,’ Lord West told Sky News.
‘I lost 22 of my boys down there and we do not want through stupidity and this sort of silly nonsense ending up in that position again.
'At the moment the Argentineans are incapable of and wouldn’t want to do a military action, but that can change very quickly.’
Dr Barry Elsby, of the Legislative Assembly of the Falkland Islands, said: ‘We are not a colony - our relationship with the United Kingdom is by choice.
‘Unlike the Government of Argentina, the United Kingdom respects the right of our people to determine our own affairs, a right that is enshrined in the UN Charter and which is ignored by Argentina.’



MikeGTi

2,510 posts

202 months

Monday 7th January 2013
quotequote all
PistonHeads: Being a wendy matters.