Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4

Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4

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TheJimi

25,012 posts

244 months

Wednesday 24th April
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I've no idea how accurate any of that is, but thanks for a really interesting post!

smile

RizzoTheRat

25,191 posts

193 months

Wednesday 24th April
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Paveway is a guided bomb not a glider though, presumably the 30km maximum range quoted is from very high altitude. How far can toss/loft bombing as described above throw a bomb? I'd be surprised if it's more than 2 or 3 km.

TheJimi

25,012 posts

244 months

Wednesday 24th April
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That was my logic too, and hence my point.

I know nothing tho!

768

13,706 posts

97 months

Wednesday 24th April
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You can loft a Paveway.

Cheib

23,274 posts

176 months

Wednesday 24th April
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Talksteer said:
TheJimi said:
borcy said:
Interesting.

With a max range of 30km, effective use of these would put the aircraft very much in range of Russian air defence, no?
Fly low, pull up, release bomb, roll till slightly inverted, fire chaff and flares, pull stick back hard, watch out from rapid approach of ground. Your plane would be exposed for only a few seconds which is commensurate with most SAM systems reaction times (S400 is claimed to be less than 10 seconds)

If the SAM is 15km away it will then take <15 seconds for the missile to get to you, which isn't helped by the fact that you are pulling some serious g so it's aim point gets pulled around. By that time you are likely back below the radar horizon of the tracking radar. Most if not all of the Russian SAMs are some form of semi active guidance in which case you it won't be able to track you. IR guided missiles are unlikely to have the range to chase a jet aircraft at low level when fired at that range. Something like the British Army's CAAM which has a active radar with data link would most likely still be able to follow you over the horizon.

For extra fun have a friend fire a HARM missile at them.

The best method to stop such an attack is an interceptor with a long range air to air missile which can sit outside the effective range of Ukrainian air defence and drop those missiles on to unsuspecting aircraft that are flying low and slow. Having the F16 means that those interceptor aircraft will need to be pushed back and the aircraft dropping the weapons are more likely to be aware that they are being targeted.
So the Paveway is something that we’ll see once Ukraine has F-16’s ?! Almost sounds like there is some strategic planning going on here….rather than reactionary which is what a lot of the kit sent so far has been.

RizzoTheRat

25,191 posts

193 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
768 said:
You can loft a Paveway.
You can, and the GPS/Laser guidance means it will be accurate, but I'd be interested to know how far you can lob it.

According to an online calculator, at 600mph lobbing it at 45 degrees would get you about 7.5km without air resistance. It's going to be pretty streamlined so maybe 5 or 6 km? Not sure I'd want to be in a 45 degree climb 5km away from a SAM system.

So I'd guess Paveway would be more use when something else has already suppressed the air defences

Cheib said:
So the Paveway is something that we’ll see once Ukraine has F-16’s ?! Almost sounds like there is some strategic planning going on here….rather than reactionary which is what a lot of the kit sent so far has been.
Probably yes, it's a GPS and laser guidance kit to turn a dumb bomb in to a smart one, but needs to be dropped from an aircraft. Presumably the F16's will already be capable of using it, whereas thier existing ex-soviet aircraft would need modifications to use it, although that hasn't stopped them modifying aircraft to use other western weapons they've been given..


Edited by RizzoTheRat on Wednesday 24th April 13:23

hidetheelephants

24,463 posts

194 months

Wednesday 24th April
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Officer in charge of Mariupol reconstruction and other projects charged with graft. What a surprise. rofl

_Al_

5,577 posts

259 months

Wednesday 24th April
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Talksteer said:
_Al_ said:
What’s bugging me is the end game. This $60bn and any European / western assistance isn’t going to destroy the Russian war machine.

It’s clear by now that Russia isn’t deterred by steep losses. While they have oil and gas in the ground they’ll always be able to command enough cash to throw around missiles/shaheds, and even if the most optimistic account of Russian losses is right they’ll be able to sling “meat waves” at Ukraine (etc) for generations.

If nothing definitive changes all we’re doing is wasting lives and wealth. That’s playing into the “waste of time” narrative of Putin and his useful idiots. We need to think hard about what “winning” means - and do whatever that is.

Limited, announced but not detailed nato boots on the ground? “Hit them and we’re coming in”
Mass NATO troops on the Ukraine border - “Get out by summer or we’ll escort you out”
Mass forces near Russian enclave - “get out of Ukraine or lose this”?
Endorse and openly enable strategically decisive Ukraine strikes on russian war machine in Russia?
Nato conduct its own strikes to that end…?

I can’t escape the thinking that unless something like the above fundamentally changes the game that we’re just slowing down the inevitable.
That will be the Russian propaganda giving those thoughts and feelings.

The Russians are burning through artillery and vehicles at rates vastly exceeding replacement. They have a large buffer from the inheritance of the CCCP but that is being run down.

Whereas EU new build artillery production is only just coming on line as is domestic production of materials in Ukraine. Towards the mid/late of 2024 Ukraine are likely to gain parity and then superiority in fires.

If we can avoid the orange monster in autumn then Ukraine will most probably win this. Ukraine and it's allies have economies about 20 times the size of Russia's, Russia is putting less than 10% of it's GDP into the conflict. We can collectively easily out spend them.

Furthermore each time Russia threatens and nothing happens the West realises that there is no great threat. In fact the threat of escalation is always greater to Russia as they are by far the weaker participant.

NATO jets could for example shoot down drones and cruise missiles over Ukraine as they have for Israel. What would the Russians do, shoot at them, most likely they'd accomplish very little the NATO planes would not amble unprotected through the engagement envelopes of Russian SAMs anyway. If they do engage then NATO jets could start shooting back in a limited way which would degrade their defences.

What other forms of escalation do they have, deniably attack our infrastructure, assassinate our politicians invade NATO?

At each level the consequences for themselves are worse both materially and in terms of humiliation. If they start attacking our infrastructure then maybe they can experience all of their oil infrastructure exploding over a 24 hour period, if they start assassinating our politicians it's a particularly bad idea to paraphrase their greatest/worst leader the death of one man is a tragedy the deaths of a million is a statistic. (Kashoggi is more of diplomatic issue than thousands of Yemenis)

As for invading NATO or other direct military actions if Russia had spare capacity they'd be using it on Ukraine. As a result they'd get to attack forces much larger and better equipped than Ukraine.

The Russians have everything to fear from every form of escalation, or fear of escalation is based on it ultimately resulting in an exchange of nuclear missiles. I would argue that it is the Russians regime who should feast that the most. The further up the chain they go the more likely that someone in the military industrial complex likes the thought of shooting pootin and a bit of military withdrawal more than they like the idea of being vaporised. The idea that being humiliated will make pootin press the button rather than surrender is for the birds, he'd discover that the button is connected to the firing action of a Makarov pistol.

With hindsight if we'd flown troops in at the start of 2022 and said you have no right to invade this country, we will fight you if you do, our forces are here at the request of the democratically elected government and you should be as afraid of escalating with us as we are with you we would all be in a better place.

This fact is hopefully not gone unnoticed by the government of China, the US and Taiwan.


Edited by Talksteer on Tuesday 23 April 21:01
So it’s all dead easy and it’ll be over by dinner time?

Why has nobody done it?

And what makes you think they’ll suddenly start doing it any time soon?

FWIW I get 99% of my information from this thread and the rest from Phillips O’Brien blogs - not sure either of those expose me to a whole heap of Russian propaganda? I ignore the guy who believes Triumph Stags are extinct.

is-uk

1,484 posts

217 months

Wednesday 24th April
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A detailed analysis on the current state of the front line. https://global.espreso.tv/ukraine-war-map-war-live...

One very interesting aspect is the following -

"The real breakthrough, however, was the drone strike on the Konteyner strategic nuclear cover radar station in Kovylkino, Mordovia. The station provided calculation and control for air defense launchers located all over Russia, especially those concentrated near Moscow, which were supposed to repel enemy heavy ballistic missiles. Without this station, it is impossible to intercept ballistic missile attacks. We hope that the 8 explosions of Ukrainian drones were enough to guarantee a sufficient level of damage to the Konteyner."


_Al_

5,577 posts

259 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
is-uk said:
A detailed analysis on the current state of the front line. https://global.espreso.tv/ukraine-war-map-war-live...

One very interesting aspect is the following -

"The real breakthrough, however, was the drone strike on the Konteyner strategic nuclear cover radar station in Kovylkino, Mordovia. The station provided calculation and control for air defense launchers located all over Russia, especially those concentrated near Moscow, which were supposed to repel enemy heavy ballistic missiles. Without this station, it is impossible to intercept ballistic missile attacks. We hope that the 8 explosions of Ukrainian drones were enough to guarantee a sufficient level of damage to the Konteyner."
Now if they can strip Moscow of its air defence that might be the sort of game changer they need

Castrol for a knave

4,715 posts

92 months

Wednesday 24th April
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Cheib said:
So the Paveway is something that we’ll see once Ukraine has F-16’s ?! Almost sounds like there is some strategic planning going on here….rather than reactionary which is what a lot of the kit sent so far has been.
The F16 is grabbing the headlines, but I am waiting to hear confirmation they are getting the Grippen C/D.

Makes good sense. Designed specifically to fight Russia in Europe, from a backroad, at half the cost and serviced by a couple of lads using a potato.

Imagine Ukraine flying a squadron of Grippen E.



SlimJim16v

5,680 posts

144 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
is-uk said:
A detailed analysis on the current state of the front line. https://global.espreso.tv/ukraine-war-map-war-live...
Good report. Ukraine not doing as bad as I thought and any gains the Russians are making are costing them dearly.
The first lot of gear from the Americans is due within hours.

Cheib

23,274 posts

176 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
Castrol for a knave said:
Cheib said:
So the Paveway is something that we’ll see once Ukraine has F-16’s ?! Almost sounds like there is some strategic planning going on here….rather than reactionary which is what a lot of the kit sent so far has been.
The F16 is grabbing the headlines, but I am waiting to hear confirmation they are getting the Grippen C/D.

Makes good sense. Designed specifically to fight Russia in Europe, from a backroad, at half the cost and serviced by a couple of lads using a potato.

Imagine Ukraine flying a squadron of Grippen E.
I wouldn’t claim to know much about this kind of thing but did listen to an interview a whileago with someone who did. He reckoned Grippen is a much better fit for Ukraine. Can’t remember why though, wasn’t just the logistical flexibility…more about its capabilities once it is in the air.

_Al_

5,577 posts

259 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
SlimJim16v said:
Good report. Ukraine not doing as bad as I thought and any gains the Russians are making are costing them dearly.
The first lot of gear from the Americans is due within hours.
Just to contradict my earlier post, I do read some news and the BBC are saying that some long range US missile have already arrived. In Crimea..

paulrockliffe

15,718 posts

228 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
_Al_ said:
SlimJim16v said:
Good report. Ukraine not doing as bad as I thought and any gains the Russians are making are costing them dearly.
The first lot of gear from the Americans is due within hours.
Just to contradict my earlier post, I do read some news and the BBC are saying that some long range US missile have already arrived. In Crimea..
I read that some ATACMS were authorised by Biden last month and were used to kill troops in Crimea. Not sure if this is being kept secret for operational reasons or because it goes against the narrative that aid could not be supplied without the political theatre that has been dragging on for the last 6 months.

pingu393

7,824 posts

206 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
_Al_ said:
SlimJim16v said:
Good report. Ukraine not doing as bad as I thought and any gains the Russians are making are costing them dearly.
The first lot of gear from the Americans is due within hours.
Just to contradict my earlier post, I do read some news and the BBC are saying that some long range US missile have already arrived. In Crimea..
The US has a very good grasp on logistics. They understand that until the President signs the piece of paper, the bomb can't hit the target. That doesn't mean that it can't be in the breach with the safety catch off and an itchy trigger finger just waiting for the President's pen to sign the paperwork.

Adam.

27,263 posts

255 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
is-uk said:
A detailed analysis on the current state of the front line. https://global.espreso.tv/ukraine-war-map-war-live...
Interesting read but I will take it with a pinch of salt as obviously pro-Ukrainian site.

Hopefully we will start to hear some impact of the longer range weapons

BikeBikeBIke

8,041 posts

116 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
SlimJim16v said:
Good report. Ukraine not doing as bad as I thought and any gains the Russians are making are costing them dearly.
The first lot of gear from the Americans is due within hours.
Another highly positive analysis here:

https://youtu.be/rR_7RVCWkJ0?si=5yTA8pbmfrZCNxFm

Maybe too positive but anything that makes it sound less likely that my kids will be fighting Russians in Europe 15 years is welcome.

BikeBikeBIke

8,041 posts

116 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
Cheib said:
Castrol for a knave said:
Cheib said:
So the Paveway is something that we’ll see once Ukraine has F-16’s ?! Almost sounds like there is some strategic planning going on here….rather than reactionary which is what a lot of the kit sent so far has been.
The F16 is grabbing the headlines, but I am waiting to hear confirmation they are getting the Grippen C/D.

Makes good sense. Designed specifically to fight Russia in Europe, from a backroad, at half the cost and serviced by a couple of lads using a potato.

Imagine Ukraine flying a squadron of Grippen E.
I wouldn’t claim to know much about this kind of thing but did listen to an interview a whileago with someone who did. He reckoned Grippen is a much better fit for Ukraine. Can’t remember why though, wasn’t just the logistical flexibility…more about its capabilities once it is in the air.
Yeah, Grippen is way better for this war. It was pretty much designed to be flow off crap runways after Russia had smashed them all up. (Eg engines high up where they don't suck debris in. Whereas F16 is the opposite.)

However Justin Bronk said, despite that, sheer numbers of available F16s make it the better bet.

I fear aircraft are gonna be a millstone around Ukraines neck. They'd be far better off with cheap bread and butter Army gear. A handful of F16s and F16 armament is gonna suck up all Ukraines fighting budget. (Hope I'm wrong.)

BikeBikeBIke

8,041 posts

116 months

Wednesday 24th April
quotequote all
Cheib said:
…who knows they he changed his mind.
IMHO becaise hitherto he was playing to his isolationist base.

Now he's got the nomination he has to win over normal voters and running on a ticket of "I'm gonna surrender to Putin." Is not a good look.

Also I don't think Trump is temperamentally keen on losing and this war is no different.

He might even understand the blatant self evidently benefits to America of supporting Ukraine. Who knows?

Trump is unpredictable. I've always thought that Putin *hopes* Trump will back down and hand Russia Ukraine but he *fears* Trump will go crazy and send 2000 US F35s to clear Russia out of Ukraine. And he's not 100pc sure which is gonna happen. I suspect if (when?) Biden wins Putin's going to breath a sign of relief in amongst the disappointment!