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Gazzas86
Original Poster
761 posts
41 months
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[quote=Superficial You’re in a vicious circle at the moment with the anxiety and panic attacks, it’s exhausting and time consuming. From what you’ve said it strikes me as odd that you’re only being seen every 2 weeks, I’d say weekly if not more frequently would be far more appropriate. What do you discuss in your sessions if you don’t mind me asking? Do you have Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) or is it more of an analysis of your past? The vast majority of anxiety cases can be majorly improved, if not eradicated completely by CBT. If you aren’t already having CBT then I would request it now – bear in mind there will most likely be a waiting list so the sooner you apply for it, the better. [/quote] Sorry, Just noticed your post, and i didn't reply last night, but i can do now  . Yes at the moment i see my MHN every 2 weeks ish, definately not weekly which i will suggest. I am seeing another lady this afternoon, (not my normal MHN as shes away on course), It does help me knowing i have an appointment with the MHN, for example yesterday i was feeling very crap, trapped in the 'circle of negativity' getting anxious etc, and as soon as i phoned them up and booked an appointment for today it helped and i felt better for it. So far.. we have only discussed Anxiety and how its all linked, i.e. Where it starts of with a thought or a feeling etc and leads to a panic attack etc, we've talked about fight or flight, not to avoid the situation and roll with anxiety. She's given me a print out docket on understanding it, also got me to write a diary and rate how i feel. The thing is, i think i totally understand it, why it happens, what the symptoms are etc... but what i cant do is stop myself getting anxious, worrying thoughts as if my mind isnt strong enough to break the 'circle' so to speak. I did suggest CBT on my first ever visit to her, she said we can do that but she wanted to try other things first. We havn't really looked at my past etc, i mean when i first went to an appointment i gave her a quick snippet of my life i.e. family deaths etc which at the time i thought was part of the reason, but we never delved into my past. Yes as far as i'm aware there is an 8 week waiting list in which i will request it this afternoon. Cheers for the advice.
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Pickled Piper
5,178 posts
105 months
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Soovy said: Gazzas86 said: Soovy said: Gazzas86 said: Soovy said: I think your problem is that you have realised you are mortal, and you fear death. We all do. It's normal. You're worrying about worrying about something which is normal to worry about.
I went through a phase a bit like this a long time ago. Once I learned to accept that I am mortal and one day I will die, most likely of the same thing which got my Dad, and made peace with that fact, it got better.
Is there a history of illness in your family which is making you worry the same thing will happen to you? Has for example your father had a heart attack and you fear the same fate imending for you?
I think what you are experiencing is a vicious circle of a normal fear of mortality turning into panic as you go round and round and round and worry about the worrying, and get more scared, and worry about the effects of the worry on your health, which makes the symptoms worse and.... well you get the picture.
We're ALL going to die of something. Accept your inevitable destiny and it will get better.
And go and see a doctor. Now. It will help to talk and owrk out why you are fearful. Not knowing is the root of fear. You are not at all alone in these feelings. They are very common.
I wish you peace. Many thanks soovy, much appreicated, I'm 25 years old, i should have mentioned so still early on in life, My Nan died of cancel a couple of years ago, and at the time and ever since i didn't feel emotion, i have never cried for years, She was diagnosed in the January and gone a month later, My dad took it bad wen't on AD's, and now on has to get tests every year to make sure he's not got anything, this had a knock on effect to my mom who also had to go on AD's to cope. My moms also had a bad past couple of years, she contracted Colitus in which she had to have an Operation to have her lower intestine removed, (now permanently with a bag etc). Thats the family history), The thing is, up to my Panic attack, i never had a worry in the world, i didn't get upset, i could just dismiss everything, never got worried about being ill etc, and suddenly i feel as if i'm falling apart, cant cope etc. What you say above Soovy makes sense, and i may even write it down and suggest this to my MH nurse as a possible reason, i think its the learning to cope with what ever it is i'm struggling with. Thats a worry for me with regards to AD's, i worry that if i start taking them, i will never be able to come off them  Thanks so far all, You're welcome. I am sometimes a bit of a dick on here, but this is real important. Real imtportant. Sounds to me like you didn't deal with the issue of your mortality at all until now. It's a delayed response. A form of post traumatic trauma which is manifesting itself as these panic attacks. You are suffering with panic about the realities of life, which are all of a sudden being "computed" by your consciousness and brought in to sharp relief for some reason. You're mortal, you're going to one day get sick and die. This is not good news to you, but sooner or later we all go through this unpleasant realisation. Some as children, some as adults. For me it was a few years after my Dad's problem. Nothing for years, then BAM. A phobia about that problem, constantly worrying about whether it'd get me, and then worrying yet further that my worrying would cause the problem, which made me more worried, which caused more stress, which .... well again you get the picture.. It took me a long time to accept my own inevitable destiny. I still think about it now, because I want to be around for my as yet unborn child for decades to come. But I deal with it because I understand the feelings I have, and know why they are there, and they are manageable because I know why I have them, and that I am not losing the plot. I don't want to die but I accept it will happen. We're all dying mate, just at different rates!! I think you need help to understand why you feel what you feel. I had to teach myself, and it took a long time I can assure you, and robbed me of time I'll never get back. Again, I wish you peace of mind above all, friend. Thanks once again It all makes sense it ehat you're saying, and i will suggest this to my MH nurse and hopefully we can work around it to see if it is the reason, one of my negative thoughts is time wasted and all, i.e. as mentioned above, when i had that 1-2 weeks of normality i did feel like a plonker how i acted, and i thought i was 'cured' one for a better word, however in the last 2 weeks this has not been the case, i DO believe it is something i have to come to terms with, and theres no medicine that can fix it, i think i'm worrying/panicing also because i don't know the right path to take to get me to understand/deal with it. Vicious circle. You worry, and you then worry about that, which causes more symptoms which you aorry about, causing more........... etc etc This is not uncommon. You are not alone. But you do need help to deal with this. Bloody Hell Soovy! Someone has hacked your password and is posting sage advice using your account! Seriously, though he is correct. I had similar episodes a while back. Convinced I was having a heart attack turned out to be chest sprain and anxiety etc. It does sound like you are realising your are not going to live for ever. These fears are manifesting themselves as physical symptoms, to which you over react etc. and so the cycle goes on. The only slightly differing advice I would give from Soovy is that your GP will tend to want to treat by medicating. It sounds as though you are talking to someone, which is good. I was lucky enough to have a good friend who is also a professional therapist. A couple of chats on the phone and I had literally "snapped" out of it. Relax and don't dwell on the negative. pp
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Soovy
32,041 posts
141 months
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Pickled Piper said: Soovy said: Gazzas86 said: Soovy said: Gazzas86 said: Soovy said: I think your problem is that you have realised you are mortal, and you fear death. We all do. It's normal. You're worrying about worrying about something which is normal to worry about.
I went through a phase a bit like this a long time ago. Once I learned to accept that I am mortal and one day I will die, most likely of the same thing which got my Dad, and made peace with that fact, it got better.
Is there a history of illness in your family which is making you worry the same thing will happen to you? Has for example your father had a heart attack and you fear the same fate imending for you?
I think what you are experiencing is a vicious circle of a normal fear of mortality turning into panic as you go round and round and round and worry about the worrying, and get more scared, and worry about the effects of the worry on your health, which makes the symptoms worse and.... well you get the picture.
We're ALL going to die of something. Accept your inevitable destiny and it will get better.
And go and see a doctor. Now. It will help to talk and owrk out why you are fearful. Not knowing is the root of fear. You are not at all alone in these feelings. They are very common.
I wish you peace. Many thanks soovy, much appreicated, I'm 25 years old, i should have mentioned so still early on in life, My Nan died of cancel a couple of years ago, and at the time and ever since i didn't feel emotion, i have never cried for years, She was diagnosed in the January and gone a month later, My dad took it bad wen't on AD's, and now on has to get tests every year to make sure he's not got anything, this had a knock on effect to my mom who also had to go on AD's to cope. My moms also had a bad past couple of years, she contracted Colitus in which she had to have an Operation to have her lower intestine removed, (now permanently with a bag etc). Thats the family history), The thing is, up to my Panic attack, i never had a worry in the world, i didn't get upset, i could just dismiss everything, never got worried about being ill etc, and suddenly i feel as if i'm falling apart, cant cope etc. What you say above Soovy makes sense, and i may even write it down and suggest this to my MH nurse as a possible reason, i think its the learning to cope with what ever it is i'm struggling with. Thats a worry for me with regards to AD's, i worry that if i start taking them, i will never be able to come off them Thanks so far all, You're welcome. I am sometimes a bit of a dick on here, but this is real important. Real imtportant. Sounds to me like you didn't deal with the issue of your mortality at all until now. It's a delayed response. A form of post traumatic trauma which is manifesting itself as these panic attacks. You are suffering with panic about the realities of life, which are all of a sudden being "computed" by your consciousness and brought in to sharp relief for some reason. You're mortal, you're going to one day get sick and die. This is not good news to you, but sooner or later we all go through this unpleasant realisation. Some as children, some as adults. For me it was a few years after my Dad's problem. Nothing for years, then BAM. A phobia about that problem, constantly worrying about whether it'd get me, and then worrying yet further that my worrying would cause the problem, which made me more worried, which caused more stress, which .... well again you get the picture.. It took me a long time to accept my own inevitable destiny. I still think about it now, because I want to be around for my as yet unborn child for decades to come. But I deal with it because I understand the feelings I have, and know why they are there, and they are manageable because I know why I have them, and that I am not losing the plot. I don't want to die but I accept it will happen. We're all dying mate, just at different rates!! I think you need help to understand why you feel what you feel. I had to teach myself, and it took a long time I can assure you, and robbed me of time I'll never get back. Again, I wish you peace of mind above all, friend. Thanks once again It all makes sense it ehat you're saying, and i will suggest this to my MH nurse and hopefully we can work around it to see if it is the reason, one of my negative thoughts is time wasted and all, i.e. as mentioned above, when i had that 1-2 weeks of normality i did feel like a plonker how i acted, and i thought i was 'cured' one for a better word, however in the last 2 weeks this has not been the case, i DO believe it is something i have to come to terms with, and theres no medicine that can fix it, i think i'm worrying/panicing also because i don't know the right path to take to get me to understand/deal with it. Vicious circle. You worry, and you then worry about that, which causes more symptoms which you aorry about, causing more........... etc etc This is not uncommon. You are not alone. But you do need help to deal with this. Bloody Hell Soovy! Someone has hacked your password and is posting sage advice using your account! Seriously, though he is correct. I had similar episodes a while back. Convinced I was having a heart attack turned out to be chest sprain and anxiety etc. It does sound like you are realising your are not going to live for ever. These fears are manifesting themselves as physical symptoms, to which you over react etc. and so the cycle goes on. The only slightly differing advice I would give from Soovy is that your GP will tend to want to treat by medicating. It sounds as though you are talking to someone, which is good. I was lucky enough to have a good friend who is also a professional therapist. A couple of chats on the phone and I had literally "snapped" out of it. Relax and don't dwell on the negative. pp As I said, some subjects are important enough that the ficitious knobhead persona is neither helpful or required.
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Gazzas86
Original Poster
761 posts
41 months
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Cheers folks,
Feel ever so slightly better today if not the same as yesterday, Basically feeling down, not got anything to feel excited about etc, Me and the missus wrote a 'jobs list' for me to do while she is away, which will be good, I keep using the word 'i think' alot, because i still dont know why i feel in a circle,
anyways, i think im worrying about being in the house on my own, then if i get anxious i'll have noone to calm me down, or talk to, yea i've got my mom/dad at the end of a phone, but there 2 hours away.
I can keep my own company fine normally, but for some reason since this panic attack, i hate being on my own... would this be normal?,
Gaz
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Pickled Piper
5,178 posts
105 months
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Gazzas86 said: Cheers folks,
Feel ever so slightly better today if not the same as yesterday, Basically feeling down, not got anything to feel excited about etc, Me and the missus wrote a 'jobs list' for me to do while she is away, which will be good, I keep using the word 'i think' alot, because i still dont know why i feel in a circle,
anyways, i think im worrying about being in the house on my own, then if i get anxious i'll have noone to calm me down, or talk to, yea i've got my mom/dad at the end of a phone, but there 2 hours away.
I can keep my own company fine normally, but for some reason since this panic attack, i hate being on my own... would this be normal?,
Gaz It does sound normal. Make sure you interact with people, on the phone or directly. Phone up old friends for a chat (I know it's a very girly thing to do). Take your laptop and sit in Starbucks or similar (don't drink too much caffeine)at least you will be around people and not on your own. Do something in a group if you can. pp
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Gazzas86
Original Poster
761 posts
41 months
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oldbanger said: Gazzas86 said: Also i forgot to mention, when i feel negative and down, i get so many scenario's, negative thoughts going through my head, some are about the future etc, worrying where i can see myself in x amount of years etc, worrying that ill never be the same, worrying that it will never sort itself out, Kind of feeling that i'm wanting something to go wrong, or expecting something to go wrong. i appreciate to someone who has never felt like this before it may seem i'm losing my marbles etc, sometimes i feel that myself, but its not in me to keep things bottled up. hence this thread, and going to the Mental health team.
Because the MH nurse works in the same base as the doctors (all interlinked) my MH nurse sends info to the doctor, but i think when i go to my visits i play it down way to much, and hence it seems as if its not progressing anywhere for me to over come it. she gives me 'homework' i.e. make a diary etc, read a docket etc, but not giving any help in whats really going on... hence me clutching at straws.
Cheers folks From this, I'd suggest you request a referral for CBT. I found this incredibly helpful with negative thought spirals. e.g. see http://www.babcp.com/Public/What-is-CBT.aspxYou can also go private - qualified therapists can be found through the BABCP. I've just had a look on the website, and entered my postcode, out of the 5 results in my area, the 'best guy'?? who has lots of letters after his name, and has been accredited the longest since 1994 works infact in the same building on base as where i go to see my MHN, so in essence it would be free as he's there to support Uniformed personnel. no wonder theres an 8 week waiting time. Thanks
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Gazzas86
Original Poster
761 posts
41 months
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Pickled Piper said: Gazzas86 said: Cheers folks,
Feel ever so slightly better today if not the same as yesterday, Basically feeling down, not got anything to feel excited about etc, Me and the missus wrote a 'jobs list' for me to do while she is away, which will be good, I keep using the word 'i think' alot, because i still dont know why i feel in a circle,
anyways, i think im worrying about being in the house on my own, then if i get anxious i'll have noone to calm me down, or talk to, yea i've got my mom/dad at the end of a phone, but there 2 hours away.
I can keep my own company fine normally, but for some reason since this panic attack, i hate being on my own... would this be normal?,
Gaz It does sound normal. Make sure you interact with people, on the phone or directly. Phone up old friends for a chat (I know it's a very girly thing to do). Take your laptop and sit in Starbucks or similar (don't drink too much caffeine)at least you will be around people and not on your own. Do something in a group if you can. pp Since my panic attack, i do find i'm messaging people for a chat alot more, people i wouldnt normally instigate a chat with etc, texting my mom more, (basically being as you say like a woman and needy!). I do alot more sports now, to keep me busy, i enjoy walking in the sunshine, something i've never really done before.. Its almost as if, a tragic incident, such as a panic attack in my eyes has changed the things i do/enjoy. Thankyou
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jackh707
1,017 posts
26 months
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Gazzas86 said: I dont drink coffee pal, i have lots of Tea though, about 1 cup every 45-50 mins :S, not sure if thats alot :S,
Boom headshot, start with cutting down your caffeine intake, that is a lot! I know many people drink that much and will try to normalise it but it's too much, tea also contains other methylxanthines such as theophylline. They will make it harder to get a good nights sleep and make you agitated, you will suffer headaches for a couple of weeks if you knock back your consumption. Have you spoken to your GP, there are a number of possiblr medical causes for your anxiety including things like hypoglycaemia, hyperthyroidism. Have you had thyroid tests/full blood count/blood glucos done? Have you been given a formal diagnosis? Try these 2 simple approaches, at the start of each day write down on a piece of paper the top 3 things on your mind that you must do. Try and have them ticked off before you go to bed. Isolate the biggest stressor in your life and deal with it if you can or forget about it if it's out of your control, be it money/relationships/health, just gain control over the situation. I only skimmed your thread so apologies if ive repeated what others have said.
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j4ckos mate
366 posts
40 months
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My daughter has been a little anxious and shy over the years, once she got in high school,and i sat down with her and told her shes got to learn not to give a s  t about anything shes been fine.
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Gazzas86
Original Poster
761 posts
41 months
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jackh707 said: Gazzas86 said: I dont drink coffee pal, i have lots of Tea though, about 1 cup every 45-50 mins :S, not sure if thats alot :S,
Boom headshot, start with cutting down your caffeine intake, that is a lot! I know many people drink that much and will try to normalise it but it's too much, tea also contains other methylxanthines such as theophylline. They will make it harder to get a good nights sleep and make you agitated, you will suffer headaches for a couple of weeks if you knock back your consumption. Have you spoken to your GP, there are a number of possiblr medical causes for your anxiety including things like hypoglycaemia, hyperthyroidism. Have you had thyroid tests/full blood count/blood glucos done? Have you been given a formal diagnosis? Try these 2 simple approaches, at the start of each day write down on a piece of paper the top 3 things on your mind that you must do. Try and have them ticked off before you go to bed. Isolate the biggest stressor in your life and deal with it if you can or forget about it if it's out of your control, be it money/relationships/health, just gain control over the situation. I only skimmed your thread so apologies if ive repeated what others have said. jack, many thanks for this, I have started cutting down on the tea, i only drink it at work, have had 2 cups so far this morning, Could alcohol be a factor, If i drink alcohol the next day seems to make me feel on edge, anxious also.... I have been to the GP and have done all the blood tests, which check the things you've mentioned above, and they came back all fine, He referred me to the MH team, who i'm working with now, and i will suggest CBT to them when i see them today. I will start writing things down, and aim to achieve them, it does help ticking things off on a list once their done etc, The stresses in life could be a huge factor, but (i cant put my finger on what exactly it is), which ever it is i cant deal with them now.so will have to learn to forget them and not let them bother me. Thanks
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maximus123
130 posts
41 months
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Hi Gaz, There’s been a few of these anxiety/depression threads that I’ve been meaning to contribute but never felt comfortable talking about my personal situation. I had panic attacks for years, getting to the stage where I was having them once a week so I went to see my GP. My main problem was I couldn’t accept that my heart was fine and that it was a panic attack. My GP was brilliant and sent me for all sorts of tests on my heart, which thankfully all came back clear. I distinctly remember chatting to him and asking what I should do if I have another panic attack and him saying come into the surgery and I’ll show all the test results to ease your worries. Believe it or not that was over 10 years ago and I haven’t had a panic attack since. Once my mind had accepted that my body was not in any danger it stopped the spiralling of panic attack. I still get similar aches and pains in my chest/arms/neck but my mind knows that I am not having a heart attack. With regard to medication, don’t see it as a failure. Would you see someone taking a cancer drug or pain killer as a failure? Of course you wouldn’t and the same applies to your situation. As final thought I found keeping active with hobbies and friends was great. It stopped me from dwelling on things and made me live more in the moment as such. Just remember there is always help out there, whether that is you O/H, a family member or even we here on PH. Best of luck mate, it does get better  Maximus
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jackh707
1,017 posts
26 months
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Gazzas86 said: jack,
He referred me to the MH team, who i'm working with now, and i will suggest CBT to them when i see them today.
I will start writing things down, and aim to achieve them, it does help ticking things off on a list once their done etc, The stresses in life could be a huge factor, but (i cant put my finger on what exactly it is), which ever it is i cant deal with them now.so will have to learn to forget them and not let them bother me.
Thanks Sounds like good forward progress to me, even if it dosn't feel like it. CBT is good aswell, it's probably your best option, and has good results. Alcohol consumption is probably bet avoided as it can worsen anxiety disorders when your not drinking, more so heavier drinking, a few cans/tins/pints a night on a regular basisi will not help, only other thing I'd say is with no offence intended if you don't, but do you smoke cannabis? it's a common factor with anxiety issues these days, an often overlooked issue associated with heavy use, any substance misuse for that matter will worsen anxiety when your in the withdrawal state. Hope things go well
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Gazzas86
Original Poster
761 posts
41 months
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Cheers Max, and Jack, All great replies, i've been to my MHN and she was great, it was a stand in one this time, as mine is away this week, The best thing i took away was to not look at long term, but short term, i.e. try and go 24 hours without worrying, if i feel myself worrying then stop myself, get up and do something productive, read my self help dockets given by me, chat to friends etc. She has passed on to my regular MHN that im keen on CBT so hopefully will get on that, Jack, dont do drugs pal, never even tried it, im in the forces and they might frown on that sort of thing hehe  , but with regards to alcohol, think im gonn lay of it for a while, even though im not a big drinker, i.e. one night every odd weekend etc, ive been for a run that felt good, and now i'm going to write a diary/plan of things to keep my busy when the missus goes away, I'll reply to posts tomorrow mornin, im off now, as the OH is leavin in a few hours and im knackered, long day... mentally more than anything. I will get there my MHN tells me, think positive. Thanks all so far for the replies Gaz
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King Herald
18,472 posts
86 months
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Gazzas86 said: I have thought about it, i.e. when i join my ship in the new year i hope it goes away etc, but there is a doubt and suddenly i'm in the middle of the ocean and noone to help , thats why i'm trying to get it sussed now. Cheers all for the replies I've been down the same road as I too work on a ship. I've had medical problems once or twice, and when you're basically alone you tend to turn inward and worry, which feeds your worries all the more. and on and on it goes until you feel like a gibbering wreck on the verge of screaming. Then you suddenly come to the surface gasping for breath. Some ten years ago I was medivacced off a ship, for a chest infection which caused my throat to close up when I was asleep. I'd suddenly wake up in shock and near hysterics, unable to breathe at all, gasping for breath, until I'd cough and it'd clear suddenly. That was some scary s t, and I insisted on being medivacced off after a couple of nights like that. Just last week I had a dose of something, real sore throat, and conjunctivitis, and I could feel my throat feeling a little odd, and I started to get really panicky, laying in my bunk, in the dark, far from home, wondering if I could possibly manage to crawl to the ships hospital if it happened again, or would die on the way.....  And then common sense kicked in and rationalized me a little. I fell asleep and woke up okay in the morning. But, the imagination can be our worst enemy at times, and that seems to be what is giving you so much grief and anxiety.
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oldbanger
2,346 posts
108 months
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Can I also suggest you look at mindfulness? This is another "no drugs" therapy for anxiety and depression, which can be used alongside CBT e.g. see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc and http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Mindful-Way-through-De...Other things that have helped me personally are: Cutting out sugar and simple starches Restricting alcohol Cutting down caffeine intake Getting enough sleep (sleep deprivation raises the stress hormone cortisol) Vitamin D3 and magnesium supplements e.g. see http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/anxiety-linked-to...Getting enough daylight (I use a dawn simulator) Exercise Occasional cups of chamomile tea and also Valerian tea (If you hadn't guessed, I suffer(ed) from chronic anxiety from childhood - only really started getting it licked once I'd become middle aged) Note that some medications such as asthma meds can cause anxiety so it's worth also reading the advice sheets provided with any long term prescription meds you use and speaking to your GP
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Gazzas86
Original Poster
761 posts
41 months
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oldbanger said: Can I also suggest you look at mindfulness? This is another "no drugs" therapy for anxiety and depression, which can be used alongside CBT e.g. see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc and http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Mindful-Way-through-De...Other things that have helped me personally are: Cutting out sugar and simple starches Restricting alcohol Cutting down caffeine intake Getting enough sleep (sleep deprivation raises the stress hormone cortisol) Vitamin D3 and magnesium supplements e.g. see http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/anxiety-linked-to...Getting enough daylight (I use a dawn simulator) Exercise Occasional cups of chamomile tea and also Valerian tea (If you hadn't guessed, I suffer(ed) from chronic anxiety from childhood - only really started getting it licked once I'd become middle aged) Note that some medications such as asthma meds can cause anxiety so it's worth also reading the advice sheets provided with any long term prescription meds you use and speaking to your GP Cheers for that, i shall have a looksy when i get home from work, Cant go on Youtube on work PC's, I'm taking these 'Busy B' Suppliments from Holland & Barrett, which apparently take 2 weeks to kick in, and they turn your piss to a nice illuminous color ha!. The Missus left this morning to go on Holiday, i managed to get back to sleep, but on the drive into work i had a bit of a bad negative thinking spell, I think i might have a look at that book you recommended. My sleep has been a bit odd recently, i would be really tired going to bed, but no matter how tired i was i would always wake up at 7am, (body clock for work), and i could get up and still be tired :S. I'm tired now, as the missus woke up at 2am to leave for the Airport so thats knackered me out. cheers for the advice Gaz
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