Christian Horner

Christian Horner

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Forester1965

1,632 posts

4 months

Tuesday 26th March
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On what basis do you think that?

skwdenyer

16,585 posts

241 months

Tuesday 26th March
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Forester1965 said:
Pawn? Her case has probably been used by others for their own purpose but, perhaps, there are some out there who have principles and are simply looking for recognition their boss is a filthy letch?
An ET won’t order an outcome other than money. The only benefit to an ET is to have the ET say “yes, you’re right,” something that a very large payoff also rather says.

Gazzab

21,111 posts

283 months

Tuesday 26th March
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skwdenyer said:
Forester1965 said:
Pawn? Her case has probably been used by others for their own purpose but, perhaps, there are some out there who have principles and are simply looking for recognition their boss is a filthy letch?
An ET won’t order an outcome other than money. The only benefit to an ET is to have the ET say “yes, you’re right,” something that a very large payoff also rather says.
If an ET says yes you were wronged then that’s formal recognition. Brand Horner spunkfinger will formally be damaged rather than debatable stuff.

Derek Smith

45,761 posts

249 months

Tuesday 26th March
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Evercross said:
Derek Smith said:
I wonder if they'll be just as dismissive about silly spats on national newspapers. Today's Guardian.
Whereabouts in The Guardian?

Not on the home page (although there is an article about "how a Scottish lesbian lifeguard drama is changing TV" - is it a Scottish drama, a Scottish lesbian or a Scottish lifeguard? confused)

Not on the Sports page (only obvious F1 article regarding Red Bull is about a burning brake assembly).

Ah, found it on the F1 sub-page. This quote seems particularly salient...

Grauniad said:
Legal experts say such a move would simply follow an ­anticipated process. “It’s like a roadmap, these are the stops along the way,” said Tania Goodman, the head of ­employment and a partner at the law firm ­Collyer ­Bristow. “If an employee has a complaint or grievance, they raise it internally, perhaps informally at first but if it’s not resolved then it becomes formal and is investigated and ­considered, usually as part of a grievance hearing after which an outcome is given.
So, not news and no new comment from any of the parties involved. Just an opinion piece from a random legal talking head telling us that there is a procedure that would most likely be followed.

How insightful.
It's still there. It's still news. It's still being reported. I know it hasn't gone away. It's there.

Maxdecel

1,241 posts

34 months

Tuesday 26th March
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Now it's his neighbours, it never rains but it pours. - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13240211/...

thegreenhell

15,467 posts

220 months

Tuesday 26th March
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Maxdecel said:
Now it's his neighbours, it never rains but it pours. - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13240211/...
Clearly fake news - the article doesn't even say how much the house is worth.

Muzzer79

10,086 posts

188 months

Tuesday 26th March
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Muzzer79 said:
Forester1965 said:
Pawn? Her case has probably been used by others for their own purpose but, perhaps, there are some out there who have principles and are simply looking for recognition their boss is a filthy letch?
I don’t doubt that she has a genuine grievance.

But if it wasn’t part of a bigger picture, I think it would have been settled by now.
Forester1965 said:
On what basis do you think that?
Very few cases like this make it to an ET….theres a reason for that.

In addition, Horner is a very public figure, so he’ll be doing anything to make this go away, not have his dirty washing aired in public.

So if it was just the complainant against Red Bull, they’d have waved enough at her to forget her principles.

I hear reliably that she’s not short of money, but there’s other ways and means to appease/subtly threaten someone away from a court room.

Being part of a bigger power play means she has more people in her corner and probably more/better lawyers.

It’s not impossible that she’s on a one-person crusade against CH and will not be swayed, but I’m saying it’s highly unlikely.

Forester1965

1,632 posts

4 months

Wednesday 27th March
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Muzzer79 said:
I hear reliably that she’s not short of money, but there’s other ways and means to appease/subtly threaten someone away from a court room.
Such as?

maz8062

2,254 posts

216 months

Wednesday 27th March
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skwdenyer said:
Forester1965 said:
Pawn? Her case has probably been used by others for their own purpose but, perhaps, there are some out there who have principles and are simply looking for recognition their boss is a filthy letch?
An ET won’t order an outcome other than money. The only benefit to an ET is to have the ET say “yes, you’re right,” something that a very large payoff also rather says.
The focus of an ET is a remedy, conciliation. It’s not a celebrity hang out to settle scores.

https://www.womblebonddickinson.com/uk/insights/ti...

ET is a long and winding road with plenty of obstacles to navigate before it even gets to court. One of the final steps will be for the claimant to set out their preferred remedy. Payouts, although potentially high, are a fraction of the maximums. It also takes a long time and the ET could decide that there’s no merit in the case and both sides should settle. ACAS will be difficult in this case for the claimant.

RB have nothing to fear with an ET because this is obviously a power play that will be obvious from space. This is just a tactic to keep this case topical but most have already moved on, because people follow sport for sport and soon get bored of this type of nonsense.

Forester1965

1,632 posts

4 months

Wednesday 27th March
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maz8062 said:
ACAS will be difficult in this case for the claimant.
Why?

Sandpit Steve

10,142 posts

75 months

Wednesday 27th March
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Gazzab said:
skwdenyer said:
Forester1965 said:
Pawn? Her case has probably been used by others for their own purpose but, perhaps, there are some out there who have principles and are simply looking for recognition their boss is a filthy letch?
An ET won’t order an outcome other than money. The only benefit to an ET is to have the ET say “yes, you’re right,” something that a very large payoff also rather says.
If an ET says yes you were wronged then that’s formal recognition. Brand Horner spunkfinger will formally be damaged rather than debatable stuff.
Yes, she appears to want her day in court, and for Horny’s behaviour to be a matter of public record rather than simply suspicion and conjecture. That she has others in the company supporting her, and seemingly doesn’t need the money, both make that day in court more likely to happen.

maz8062

2,254 posts

216 months

Wednesday 27th March
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Forester1965 said:
Why?
Because ACAS are all about finding a solution, mediation. RB, by all accounts, have offered a solution, a monetary solution, but she’s turned it down allegedly. So she’ll have to say what she wants which if unreasonable, won’t even get to the ET. If they’ve offered her €1m, the ET can’t offer more so what is her point?

Forester1965

1,632 posts

4 months

Wednesday 27th March
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maz8062 said:
Because ACAS are all about finding a solution, mediation. RB, by all accounts, have offered a solution, a monetary solution, but she’s turned it down allegedly. So she’ll have to say what she wants which if unreasonable, won’t even get to the ET. If they’ve offered her €1m, the ET can’t offer more so what is her point?
All you need is a certificate from ACAS. You don't have to take part in any ACAS conciliation or tell them what you want to get one.

Derek Smith

45,761 posts

249 months

Wednesday 27th March
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maz8062 said:
Forester1965 said:
Why?
Because ACAS are all about finding a solution, mediation. RB, by all accounts, have offered a solution, a monetary solution, but she’s turned it down allegedly. So she’ll have to say what she wants which if unreasonable, won’t even get to the ET. If they’ve offered her €1m, the ET can’t offer more so what is her point?
They haven't admitted guilt. They haven't apologised. That, for many people, is important. She may well be thinking that she will not be able to continue working in the field she wants to and her only hope is to have RBR and CH say they were in error.

I mean, I don't know any more than you do in the matter, but I do know about losing one's job unfairly and through actions of those in charge that are breaches of employment standards.

spookly

4,021 posts

96 months

Wednesday 27th March
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maz8062 said:
skwdenyer said:
Forester1965 said:
Pawn? Her case has probably been used by others for their own purpose but, perhaps, there are some out there who have principles and are simply looking for recognition their boss is a filthy letch?
An ET won’t order an outcome other than money. The only benefit to an ET is to have the ET say “yes, you’re right,” something that a very large payoff also rather says.
The focus of an ET is a remedy, conciliation. It’s not a celebrity hang out to settle scores.

https://www.womblebonddickinson.com/uk/insights/ti...

ET is a long and winding road with plenty of obstacles to navigate before it even gets to court. One of the final steps will be for the claimant to set out their preferred remedy. Payouts, although potentially high, are a fraction of the maximums. It also takes a long time and the ET could decide that there’s no merit in the case and both sides should settle. ACAS will be difficult in this case for the claimant.

RB have nothing to fear with an ET because this is obviously a power play that will be obvious from space. This is just a tactic to keep this case topical but most have already moved on, because people follow sport for sport and soon get bored of this type of nonsense.
And your expertise is?

You are mistakenly assuming that any corporate power plays that have gone on have much relevance to the PA's case. It really doesn't.
A defence to a sexual harassment charge of "I did sexually harass her, but it doesn't matter because there was some politics going on" really isn't going to fly.
Nor would a defence of "Yes, I was sexually harassing her, but this only came out because of some internal RB politics, you weren't supposed to know about this, and I told her to delete the messages".

They are two completely separate issues.
Even if some third party is using CH's behaviour as political ammunition, it in no way absolves CH of being a scummy, greasy sex pest with no game.

A tribunal won't be bothered about the post factum use of CH's behaviour as a political axe, they'll be looking at CH's behaviour. Did it pass the threshold for being considered sexual harassment and how bad was it?

I don't think they'd have any problem getting an ET to accept the case. On the face of it, it looks about as clear a case of documented sexual harassment and sexual coercion as you'd ever see.
ACAS won't be difficult either. It's just mediation to see if agreement can be reached without it going to court. How would that be difficult?

All it needs for it to reach an employment tribunal is for the PA to stick to her guns, and no agreement be reached during mediation.

The bigger question is why you're so invested in CH not seeing some consequences for his actions?


DeejRC

5,829 posts

83 months

Wednesday 27th March
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Probably because the consequences of a PA wking off her boss are irrelevant compared to control of a multi billion £ company.
You may not like it, you may consider some British laws have been broken, you may consider it unethical, you may consider it poor form, you may not like the wrath of a wronged wife, alas every single ethical, moral, legal and frankly social convention are sacrificial and irrelevant when it comes to being top of the pile in a multi £billion power play.
Such is life. Those wanting moral retribution will simply have to settled for seeing the RB soap opera play out. The rest of us will continue to watch the racing and hope the Sainz family takes the fight to the Dutch.
I’m v much a Merc & Donkey driving chap btw and I don’t drink RB.

spookly

4,021 posts

96 months

Wednesday 27th March
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DeejRC said:
Probably because the consequences of a PA wking off her boss are irrelevant compared to control of a multi billion £ company.
You may not like it, you may consider some British laws have been broken, you may consider it unethical, you may consider it poor form, you may not like the wrath of a wronged wife, alas every single ethical, moral, legal and frankly social convention are sacrificial and irrelevant when it comes to being top of the pile in a multi £billion power play.
Such is life. Those wanting moral retribution will simply have to settled for seeing the RB soap opera play out. The rest of us will continue to watch the racing and hope the Sainz family takes the fight to the Dutch.
I’m v much a Merc & Donkey driving chap btw and I don’t drink RB.
None of that seems to form a logical train of thought or coherent argument.

Just because there is some multi £billion shenanigans going on does not in anyway absolve CH of his behaviour. It may have come to light at the same time, or even because of, the political goings on but that in no way affects the facts of the PA's case.

If the messages are real, and I see no reason to not believe them to be, then it seems fair to surmise:
  • CH repeatedly pressured his PA for sexual acts after repeatedly being told no
  • CH threatened her job, and seemed to take actions to make it untenable
  • CH will claim to like coco pops to slime his way into his PAs pants
Even if the reason it came to public attention was a leak due to internal RB politics, it does not make CH any less guilty.
The only way this does not reach a tribunal is if the PA accepts a payoff.
So far, she does not seem interested in a payout. I can only think of two reasons for that. She either wants more money, or she wants some kind of justice where CH is formally recognised for what he's done or faces consequences. RB can deal with it and make it go away if she'd accept more money, but if she is not willing to accept no consequences for CH, then RB have nothing they can do to avoid it getting to court other than sacking CH.


maz8062

2,254 posts

216 months

Wednesday 27th March
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
maz8062 said:
Forester1965 said:
Why?
Because ACAS are all about finding a solution, mediation. RB, by all accounts, have offered a solution, a monetary solution, but she’s turned it down allegedly. So she’ll have to say what she wants which if unreasonable, won’t even get to the ET. If they’ve offered her €1m, the ET can’t offer more so what is her point?
They haven't admitted guilt. They haven't apologised. That, for many people, is important. She may well be thinking that she will not be able to continue working in the field she wants to and her only hope is to have RBR and CH say they were in error.

I mean, I don't know any more than you do in the matter, but I do know about losing one's job unfairly and through actions of those in charge that are breaches of employment standards.
ET’s are not about comforting an employee, instructing an employer to apologise because they’ve hurt their feelings - they’re there to try and find a solution between employer/employee. The relationship has broken down, the suspension will prove that so they’re not going take her back at work, it’s about a remedy, a financial solution which RB have already offered. Does she want them to take her back? The ET can’t force RB to take her back, so it’ll come down to a financial settlement.

RB also have the findings of a KC, the ET/ACAS will take that into account so it’s not clear what an ET will solve.

Forester1965

1,632 posts

4 months

Wednesday 27th March
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maz8062 said:
ET’s are not about comforting an employee, instructing an employer to apologise because they’ve hurt their feelings - they’re there to try and find a solution between employer/employee. The relationship has broken down, the suspension will prove that so they’re not going take her back at work, it’s about a remedy, a financial solution which RB have already offered. Does she want them to take her back? The ET can’t force RB to take her back, so it’ll come down to a financial settlement.

RB also have the findings of a KC, the ET/ACAS will take that into account so it’s not clear what an ET will solve.
As it happens, an ET *can* force them to take her back. It is a power they have. They won't because the circumstances here dictate it's impractical. What they can do is provide two things; an impartial declaration that her rights were abused (that is important to some people and may be the only way she can save her career in this case) and financial compensation.

There is no rule that she must accept a settlement offer instead of going to ET, even if that offer is higher than the maximum she could be awarded there.

Gazzab

21,111 posts

283 months

Wednesday 27th March
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Like the sands of the hourglass, so are the Days of our Lives...