Mad Negative Camber. Why?

Mad Negative Camber. Why?

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Discussion

warped head

272 posts

172 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
G_T said:
warped head said:
Smoother airflow meaning less drag, or maybe just for a bit of added downforce.
Hows that work then?

A spoiler can't reduce drag and increase downforce surely?
My bad, I meant it to be two separate statements. as an either or and not both together.

rest of my post still stands though

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
G_T said:
warped head said:
Smoother airflow meaning less drag, or maybe just for a bit of added downforce.
Hows that work then?

A spoiler can't reduce drag and increase downforce surely?
Possibly it could. But that's more likely an OR statement. Those spoilers on the top of a hatchbacks hatch are usually there to reduce drag.

G_T

16,160 posts

189 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
warped head said:
G_T said:
warped head said:
Smoother airflow meaning less drag, or maybe just for a bit of added downforce.
Hows that work then?

A spoiler can't reduce drag and increase downforce surely?
My bad, I meant it to be two separate statements. as an either or and not both together.
I thought all spoilers would increase drag though?

(No being a smart arse or trying to discredit you.)

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
warped head said:
Same with the corrado VR6 auto adjusting rear wing?
The Corrado's one is a spoiler not a wing. I suspect the others are too.

The Corrado's one also makes absolutely no noticeable difference. At least not to someone with my (lack of) driving ability.

Edited by kambites on Monday 30th November 14:40

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
HRG said:
Munter said:
bales said:
Marf said:
JB! said:
It's all fashion really, form over function, but a well excecuted dub looks a million times better than "gaz" in his saxo...
Yet "gaz" in his saxo could probably run rings around a gashed up well excecuted dub around some b-roads.

I guess some people are far too concerned about how their car looks, rather than how well it drives. redface
And thats the crux of the matter, some people are more interested in how their car looks....so what, big deal.

Why should be making a car peform better be any more relevant than making a car 'look' better in their own opinion?

Why bother decorating your house to look better if it does the job of keeping you warm and not falling apart?? Silly argument really, each to their own I say.
But if you decorated your house. And as part of the decoration it "looked" best to have the windows wide open so you bolted them open. Then in winter people could see you in your house wearing all the clothes you own just to keep warm.

Would you or would you not expect those people to think you're a bit of a plonka as you're house no longer functions (as a house) as well as it used to, all for the sake of fashion.
This probably doesn't handle very well....

True. But then it never did. It's kind of the whole polishing a turd thing. It's shiny. But I still don't want it on my drive.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
G_T said:
I thought all spoilers would increase drag though?

(No being a smart arse or trying to discredit you.)
No it's quite possible to have a spoiler that both decreases drag and reduces lift. A sharp edge to cleanly sheer the air and hence reduce turbulence will often do both.

A wing will pretty much always increase drag though.

Edited by kambites on Monday 30th November 14:42

HRG

72,857 posts

238 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
Munter said:
HRG said:
Munter said:
bales said:
Marf said:
JB! said:
It's all fashion really, form over function, but a well excecuted dub looks a million times better than "gaz" in his saxo...
Yet "gaz" in his saxo could probably run rings around a gashed up well excecuted dub around some b-roads.

I guess some people are far too concerned about how their car looks, rather than how well it drives. redface
And thats the crux of the matter, some people are more interested in how their car looks....so what, big deal.

Why should be making a car peform better be any more relevant than making a car 'look' better in their own opinion?

Why bother decorating your house to look better if it does the job of keeping you warm and not falling apart?? Silly argument really, each to their own I say.
But if you decorated your house. And as part of the decoration it "looked" best to have the windows wide open so you bolted them open. Then in winter people could see you in your house wearing all the clothes you own just to keep warm.

Would you or would you not expect those people to think you're a bit of a plonka as you're house no longer functions (as a house) as well as it used to, all for the sake of fashion.
This probably doesn't handle very well....

True. But then it never did. It's kind of the whole polishing a turd thing. It's shiny. But I still don't want it on my drive.
It's not fashion, it's art.

warped head

272 posts

172 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
G_T said:
warped head said:
G_T said:
warped head said:
Smoother airflow meaning less drag, or maybe just for a bit of added downforce.
Hows that work then?

A spoiler can't reduce drag and increase downforce surely?
My bad, I meant it to be two separate statements. as an either or and not both together.
I thought all spoilers would increase drag though?

(No being a smart arse or trying to discredit you.)
not all create drag,

Take the MK3 GTi example.

Its a little boot lid spoiler that pops out an few inches.

This does make a small deifference as it creates a tumble of air beneath it which deflects flowing air away from the back of the car rather than it being dragged down the tailgate.

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
I thought Art was of no practical use. That's still clearly a car that could be used for the transportation of humans and other stuff.

A polished turd however. Would indeed be Art. Given that it can no longer be used as fertiliser.

The car above is fashion. And still improved in almost every way over the original I'd guess.

warped head

272 posts

172 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
kambites said:
A sharp edge to cleanly sheer the air and hence reduce turbulence will often do both.
Silly man, you shouldnt have said that...

Now we'll see little chavs taking a file to their wings to 'sharpen' the edge and make it work better init, but the only effect it'll have is if they hit someone and they tumble over the car they'll get diced

god my spellings dire today


Edited by warped head on Monday 30th November 14:51

bales

1,905 posts

217 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
We do some people struggle so much to just accept that people like different things!! Why must it always be turned round to be an insult, the example of the -imo beautiful - car above, why must people resort to petty sayings like polishing a turd, just because they personally don't like it.

Seriously someone explain it to me cos I don't get it?? Is it a degree of arrogance in that because I don't like it I am always right so it must be st??

Marf

22,907 posts

240 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
I don't see anyone resorting to anything, just people expressing their opinions wink

And anyway, you can't polish a turd, but you can paint it with varnish and sprinkle it with glitter. thumbup

G_T

16,160 posts

189 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
No, you take the mk3 Gti. They're for homos biggrin. Cheers for the clarification on spoilers lads. Never knew they could actually reduce drag.

Still deteste those "wash board" style ones though... And the mx5 ones. Terrible looking thing and surely pointless on a convertible.

Oh an back on topic, subjective or not, anything that makes your car worse than it was standard is always going to make you look like a tosser. Admittedly in my youth though I was the proud owner of an Astra mk4 with lexus lights... and a badgless grille,.. and an Irmscher body kit...






warped head

272 posts

172 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
G_T said:
No, you take the mk3 Gti. They're for homos biggrin.
probably explains why the male hairdresser down the road owns one then.

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
clarkey318is said:
Would be interesting to know the amount of camber used on touring cars etc just to highlight the idiocy of the situation.
Not sure about the touring cars, but my racing car's been run with up to 5.5 degrees of Camber on the back and up to 4 at the front (911). I can't say I've ever noticed a dramatic drop in braking ability with 'big' camber angles, it far more sensitive to ARB stiffness and rake.

It's horses for courses though. If you're tracking a car that has body roll, or a car with softer suspension bushes, then you'll lose the camber in the corners and therefore will need more static camber to compensate. I'm sure plenty of road car track day goers can testify to scrubbing the outside edges of their tyres.

There is of course a limit of sensibility before the car becomes dodgy, but I wonder how many naysayers on here have stiffened up their suspension in the name of handling and found their ABS pinging away when they've tried to stop briskly on a bumpy road that their car would have soaked up effortlessly before.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
The Wookie said:
There is of course a limit of sensibility before the car becomes dodgy, but I wonder how many naysayers on here have stiffened up their suspension in the name of handling and found their ABS pinging away when they've tried to stop briskly on a bumpy road that their car would have soaked up effortlessly before.
Quite.

CrisW

522 posts

192 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
warped head said:
CrisW said:
As with the brigades who stick massive wings on their FWD hatches its form over function.
So the golf 3 GTi STANDARD rear wing is form over function??

Same with the corrado VR6 auto adjusting rear wing?

What about honda accord type r?

there is little need for a spoiler at the back on a fwd car BUT it does help if its part of the design.

Smoother airflow meaning less drag, or maybe just for a bit of added downforce.

It is possible for the back of a FWD car to lose traction under hard cornering and a rear wing WILL combat this IF designed properly.

Look at BTCC.

The lacetti its FWD and iirc has a mahoosive spoiler.

theres a function to that or the guy who run the team wouldnt have stuck it on.

MOST application in the modifying world are for form, but even so there will be some function to it somewhere even if it is barely noticable.

Edited to fix quote

Edited by warped head on Monday 30th November 14:21
I've yet to see a production Golf with a massive wing.

I've seen any number of production cars with wings on them. Some are functional, I would hope most.

I would suggest to you that the aero benefits of this sort of thing:

Are non-existent whilst the detriments are a bit greater.

I have no problem with people styling their cars to their own tastes (form over function). As long as the finished item is done well then it's up to the owner. If the item is a lash up and/or dangerous then I'd rather that they didn't.

williamp

19,215 posts

272 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
Those VW boys are amateurs...





Oh, and there seems to be a lot of confusion between spoilers and wings. Two different things, serving two different purposes. And in theory you can have both.

lockup

383 posts

241 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
As previously stated, swing-axle Beetles get negative camber on the rear when they're lowered by the nature of the suspension design... and positive when it's jacked up:


bales

1,905 posts

217 months

Monday 30th November 2009
quotequote all
williamp said:
Those VW boys are amateurs...





Oh, and there seems to be a lot of confusion between spoilers and wings. Two different things, serving two different purposes. And in theory you can have both.
Ah Bill Millikens camber car! He was one of the great engineers of our times! His books I read at uni are still mind-bogglingly complicated to me!