So, now that the GT4 specs are finally known....
Poll: So, now that the GT4 specs are finally known....
Total Members Polled: 158
Discussion
pete a said:
The GT4 looks fantastic, will drive well I'm sure and will be a huge success,
"BUT"
The idea that you pay £75-£80k and get a de-tuned 991 Carrera S engine just annoys me too much. Why not just fit the standard 400ps Carrera S lump or better yet the 430ps power kitted engine, why go to the trouble of making something less than it already is?
One of the things i love about my 997.1 GT3 is that the 415ps 3.6 Mezger lump is as good as it could possibly be, they couldn't improve on it for the 997.1RS so fitted exactly the same engine, when they needed an upgrade for the 997.2 they had to up the displacement to 3.8 to get that bit extra.
Remember the intake system and the crankcase is different so it could fit in the engine bay so just maybe that dictates the state of tune. Although the true reason is probably just because of the 911!"BUT"
The idea that you pay £75-£80k and get a de-tuned 991 Carrera S engine just annoys me too much. Why not just fit the standard 400ps Carrera S lump or better yet the 430ps power kitted engine, why go to the trouble of making something less than it already is?
One of the things i love about my 997.1 GT3 is that the 415ps 3.6 Mezger lump is as good as it could possibly be, they couldn't improve on it for the 997.1RS so fitted exactly the same engine, when they needed an upgrade for the 997.2 they had to up the displacement to 3.8 to get that bit extra.
As they don't put the mezger in cars now, it's probably as good as we could get.
I think going by today's prices it's reasonable. My dealer had a gts for 70k.
Two different markets, but compared to a basic 991 it's a bargain.
Elsewhere on the forum someone said it was expensive for a cayman. I don't get that. It's basically a" mid engined 911" imo. What's the name got to do with it?
I think going by today's prices it's reasonable. My dealer had a gts for 70k.
Two different markets, but compared to a basic 991 it's a bargain.
Elsewhere on the forum someone said it was expensive for a cayman. I don't get that. It's basically a" mid engined 911" imo. What's the name got to do with it?
I'm really struggling with this. On the one hand, I know that I should really love the way this thing drives and I'm OK with the power output. But I'd have liked a more high revving engine. I still think it's possible that a modded CR is a better option for me. I'll sleep on it and see how I feel in the morning.
Also what the hell did they do to the engine? It's around 20g/km worse than a C2S and is supposedly de-tuned version of the same engine - bizarre!
Also what the hell did they do to the engine? It's around 20g/km worse than a C2S and is supposedly de-tuned version of the same engine - bizarre!
J-P said:
I'm really struggling with this. On the one hand, I know that I should really love the way this thing drives and I'm OK with the power output. But I'd have liked a more high revving engine. I still think it's possible that a modded CR is a better option for me. I'll sleep on it and see how I feel in the morning.
Also what the hell did they do to the engine? It's around 20g/km worse than a C2S and is supposedly de-tuned version of the same engine - bizarre!
Not wishing to add to your first world problems jp but…a CR is 40k, you could easily throw 10k at it trying to turn it into something else, and its money which you will never get back and all for a car that now looks a bit, well, old hat. Personally i think a CR is not a good candidate for modding, better to have bought a base 3.4 for that. If i were in the same boat and could afford a GT4 i would have one in a flash, at the end of the day if you get it and changed your mind I'm sure there will be a rather long queue of people waiting to take it off your hands and maybe even for a tidy premium! Also what the hell did they do to the engine? It's around 20g/km worse than a C2S and is supposedly de-tuned version of the same engine - bizarre!
J-P said:
I'm really struggling with this. On the one hand, I know that I should really love the way this thing drives and I'm OK with the power output. But I'd have liked a more high revving engine. I still think it's possible that a modded CR is a better option for me. I'll sleep on it and see how I feel in the morning.
Also what the hell did they do to the engine? It's around 20g/km worse than a C2S and is supposedly de-tuned version of the same engine - bizarre!
Is the C2S emissions value for the PDK? The manual in the GT4 will be less efficient. Actually, the manual in the C2S would be 7 speed so there's probably more economy there than the 6 speed GT4 manual as wellAlso what the hell did they do to the engine? It's around 20g/km worse than a C2S and is supposedly de-tuned version of the same engine - bizarre!
PR36 said:
J-P said:
I'm really struggling with this. On the one hand, I know that I should really love the way this thing drives and I'm OK with the power output. But I'd have liked a more high revving engine. I still think it's possible that a modded CR is a better option for me. I'll sleep on it and see how I feel in the morning.
Also what the hell did they do to the engine? It's around 20g/km worse than a C2S and is supposedly de-tuned version of the same engine - bizarre!
Not wishing to add to your first world problems jp but…a CR is 40k, you could easily throw 10k at it trying to turn it into something else, and its money which you will never get back and all for a car that now looks a bit, well, old hat. Personally i think a CR is not a good candidate for modding, better to have bought a base 3.4 for that. If i were in the same boat and could afford a GT4 i would have one in a flash, at the end of the day if you get it and changed your mind I'm sure there will be a rather long queue of people waiting to take it off your hands and maybe even for a tidy premium! Also what the hell did they do to the engine? It's around 20g/km worse than a C2S and is supposedly de-tuned version of the same engine - bizarre!
J-P said:
True but then if I did mod, I wouldn't sell....ever. So cost is £10k...rather than £35k in my ideal spec. My car already has buckets, nav, telephone module, climate - the cost of these items and other essentials on the GT4 is pretty epic! Plus it has a hydraulic steering system, proper handbrake and can get to around 360hp without too much hassle and weighs only 1310kg.
if i was in your position id absolutely do as you say and make some top end mods to the CR and keep the thing.Beedub said:
J-P said:
True but then if I did mod, I wouldn't sell....ever. So cost is £10k...rather than £35k in my ideal spec. My car already has buckets, nav, telephone module, climate - the cost of these items and other essentials on the GT4 is pretty epic! Plus it has a hydraulic steering system, proper handbrake and can get to around 360hp without too much hassle and weighs only 1310kg.
if i was in your position id absolutely do as you say and make some top end mods to the CR and keep the thing.J-P said:
Yes that's my thinking. The other issue, is that I love doing track days. I can get the GT4 but then I'd not be able to do as many track days. Also I've never really modded a car and tried to make it my own, so that on its own is quite exciting.
well funny thing I've got a very very highly modded z4m that I'm thinking about moving to the GT4 from, its pretty much modded to the hilt and a car that I've owned from sub 1000 miles old/ 8 years .... so your view really interests me. Its been modded to a standard that has been executed to oem level with the best of the best parts from 3 way track spec dampers, to 500+ hp and so on and so on, the supporting mod list is endless.. check it out as you may be interested in a similar type of focus for your CR http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&am... heres another relating to on track sprint performance http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&am... to give you an idea of how its performing.The allure for the GT4 is really strong but I'm really struggling with the price tag, with the bits i want/need I'm talking 80k, and some of those bits would definitely be required for the re-sale to be where id NEED it to be, i LOVE that this car has made it finally but damn...porsche have priced it alittle to far from reach from the target audience imo, if i had a spyder ( car i really should have purchased but never did, i kick ,myself daily) or a CR id really think about the spec, and mod to a very high standard with top tier parts and not look back, and IF 360hp is achievable from the 3.4.. damn.... Do it already. But be warned, it can be a slippery slope as my car painfully highlights, work to a point and make sure you STOP before you spend way to much money. Modding them setting up and honing has been one of the best motoring experiences I've had, i wouldn't change a second of it.
I decided not to deposit for a few reasons.
I currently, as of last month run a 2014 Cayman 2.9. Primary purpose is daily-drive for the Mrs. Secondary is I like to track day it.
I also tend to have a Supercar in the garage (history of Lambo's and Ferraris) which I fidget and change every 6-12 months.
I wanted to have the GT4 tick BOTH boxes for me and try to settle on something that would stop me changing cars so frequently and still be perfect as a daily drive when needed. Unfortunately I feel it is probably a little bit too GT focused for the Mrs to use daily, yet not quite extreme enough to satisfy my higher end spot in the garage.
I really wanted to buy this car to. But I think our sub £40k 981 is too good for the daily drive, and the GT4 not good enough for that special something.
Confused!
I currently, as of last month run a 2014 Cayman 2.9. Primary purpose is daily-drive for the Mrs. Secondary is I like to track day it.
I also tend to have a Supercar in the garage (history of Lambo's and Ferraris) which I fidget and change every 6-12 months.
I wanted to have the GT4 tick BOTH boxes for me and try to settle on something that would stop me changing cars so frequently and still be perfect as a daily drive when needed. Unfortunately I feel it is probably a little bit too GT focused for the Mrs to use daily, yet not quite extreme enough to satisfy my higher end spot in the garage.
I really wanted to buy this car to. But I think our sub £40k 981 is too good for the daily drive, and the GT4 not good enough for that special something.
Confused!
Beedub said:
J-P said:
Yes that's my thinking. The other issue, is that I love doing track days. I can get the GT4 but then I'd not be able to do as many track days. Also I've never really modded a car and tried to make it my own, so that on its own is quite exciting.
well funny thing I've got a very very highly modded z4m that I'm thinking about moving to the GT4 from, its pretty much modded to the hilt and a car that I've owned from sub 1000 miles old/ 8 years .... so your view really interests me. Its been modded to a standard that has been executed to oem level with the best of the best parts from 3 way track spec dampers, to 500+ hp and so on and so on, the supporting mod list is endless.. check it out as you may be interested in a similar type of focus for your CR http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&am... heres another relating to on track sprint performance http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&am... to give you an idea of how its performing.The allure for the GT4 is really strong but I'm really struggling with the price tag, with the bits i want/need I'm talking 80k, and some of those bits would definitely be required for the re-sale to be where id NEED it to be, i LOVE that this car has made it finally but damn...porsche have priced it alittle to far from reach from the target audience imo, if i had a spyder ( car i really should have purchased but never did, i kick ,myself daily) or a CR id really think about the spec, and mod to a very high standard with top tier parts and not look back, and IF 360hp is achievable from the 3.4.. damn.... Do it already. But be warned, it can be a slippery slope as my car painfully highlights, work to a point and make sure you STOP before you spend way to much money. Modding them setting up and honing has been one of the best motoring experiences I've had, i wouldn't change a second of it.
If you decide the GT4, and thus the 997 GT3, isn't for you, then carry on and mod the Cayman R. Just be aware that
as Beedub has said, it's a very slippery slope you're standing at the top of if you decide on this option.
But if you genuinely think the Cayman R is a keeper, you could do the the upgrades in phases. Seats ? harnesses, cage/harness bar. Suspension, brakes etc, then do lightweight flywheel, exhaust/decat, remap, throttle body. Then the diff etc etc.
On the basis of your's, Cmoose's and my experience with the SVP Cayman, I think you'd be building something special by basing it on a CR. ust make sure you make all the mods reversible, and that you keep all the original parts you remove.
As I mentioned to you previously, beware of the "journey" becoming more important than the "holiday" itself.
For those of you that dipped in to the other thread that J-P had running, you may find this graph I generated interesting...
Here is a thrust curve comparison for the GT4 and the 997.1 GT3. Obviously I have no dyno numbers for a GT4 so its line was calculated using the dyno info I did have for a 991 3.8L C2S (and unfortunately with a bit more power than the GT4 is mooted to have). The GT4 line is blue, the red line is a stock 997.1 GT3 3.6L and the green line a 997.1 GT3 3.6L running a 4.00 final drive.
Its a limited exercise, there is more to a car than "thrust" after all but it makes an interesting comparative nonetheless.
For a wider lens, the 997.1 GT3 had a ring time of 7.42 set in 2006 with PASM. The GT4 is mooted for 7.40 using the advantages of 8-9 years worth of tyre development, PTV, chassis design and the rest of the improvements Porsche has brought to the table in that time.
What is pretty clear is that these two cars will present quite different driving and ultimately ownership experiences.
My instinct is that the 997 will still have more on the table in terms of performance level over the GT4 if one wished to tap into it but this will become clear when the actual details come out.
This experience aspect may prove to form a rather tidy boundary between GT4 and 996/997 GT3 owners in the end. It will be interesting to see this develop over time once the dust settles.
Here is a thrust curve comparison for the GT4 and the 997.1 GT3. Obviously I have no dyno numbers for a GT4 so its line was calculated using the dyno info I did have for a 991 3.8L C2S (and unfortunately with a bit more power than the GT4 is mooted to have). The GT4 line is blue, the red line is a stock 997.1 GT3 3.6L and the green line a 997.1 GT3 3.6L running a 4.00 final drive.
Its a limited exercise, there is more to a car than "thrust" after all but it makes an interesting comparative nonetheless.
For a wider lens, the 997.1 GT3 had a ring time of 7.42 set in 2006 with PASM. The GT4 is mooted for 7.40 using the advantages of 8-9 years worth of tyre development, PTV, chassis design and the rest of the improvements Porsche has brought to the table in that time.
What is pretty clear is that these two cars will present quite different driving and ultimately ownership experiences.
My instinct is that the 997 will still have more on the table in terms of performance level over the GT4 if one wished to tap into it but this will become clear when the actual details come out.
This experience aspect may prove to form a rather tidy boundary between GT4 and 996/997 GT3 owners in the end. It will be interesting to see this develop over time once the dust settles.
Edited by fioran0 on Thursday 5th February 01:45
Beedub said:
J-P said:
Yes that's my thinking. The other issue, is that I love doing track days. I can get the GT4 but then I'd not be able to do as many track days. Also I've never really modded a car and tried to make it my own, so that on its own is quite exciting.
well funny thing I've got a very very highly modded z4m that I'm thinking about moving to the GT4 from, its pretty much modded to the hilt and a car that I've owned from sub 1000 miles old/ 8 years .... so your view really interests me. Its been modded to a standard that has been executed to oem level with the best of the best parts from 3 way track spec dampers, to 500+ hp and so on and so on, the supporting mod list is endless.. check it out as you may be interested in a similar type of focus for your CR http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&am... heres another relating to on track sprint performance http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&am... to give you an idea of how its performing.The allure for the GT4 is really strong but I'm really struggling with the price tag, with the bits i want/need I'm talking 80k, and some of those bits would definitely be required for the re-sale to be where id NEED it to be, i LOVE that this car has made it finally but damn...porsche have priced it alittle to far from reach from the target audience imo, if i had a spyder ( car i really should have purchased but never did, i kick ,myself daily) or a CR id really think about the spec, and mod to a very high standard with top tier parts and not look back, and IF 360hp is achievable from the 3.4.. damn.... Do it already. But be warned, it can be a slippery slope as my car painfully highlights, work to a point and make sure you STOP before you spend way to much money. Modding them setting up and honing has been one of the best motoring experiences I've had, i wouldn't change a second of it.
Slippydiff said:
Beedub said:
J-P said:
Yes that's my thinking. The other issue, is that I love doing track days. I can get the GT4 but then I'd not be able to do as many track days. Also I've never really modded a car and tried to make it my own, so that on its own is quite exciting.
well funny thing I've got a very very highly modded z4m that I'm thinking about moving to the GT4 from, its pretty much modded to the hilt and a car that I've owned from sub 1000 miles old/ 8 years .... so your view really interests me. Its been modded to a standard that has been executed to oem level with the best of the best parts from 3 way track spec dampers, to 500+ hp and so on and so on, the supporting mod list is endless.. check it out as you may be interested in a similar type of focus for your CR http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&am... heres another relating to on track sprint performance http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&am... to give you an idea of how its performing.The allure for the GT4 is really strong but I'm really struggling with the price tag, with the bits i want/need I'm talking 80k, and some of those bits would definitely be required for the re-sale to be where id NEED it to be, i LOVE that this car has made it finally but damn...porsche have priced it alittle to far from reach from the target audience imo, if i had a spyder ( car i really should have purchased but never did, i kick ,myself daily) or a CR id really think about the spec, and mod to a very high standard with top tier parts and not look back, and IF 360hp is achievable from the 3.4.. damn.... Do it already. But be warned, it can be a slippery slope as my car painfully highlights, work to a point and make sure you STOP before you spend way to much money. Modding them setting up and honing has been one of the best motoring experiences I've had, i wouldn't change a second of it.
If you decide the GT4, and thus the 997 GT3, isn't for you, then carry on and mod the Cayman R. Just be aware that
as Beedub has said, it's a very slippery slope you're standing at the top of if you decide on this option.
But if you genuinely think the Cayman R is a keeper, you could do the the upgrades in phases. Seats ? harnesses, cage/harness bar. Suspension, brakes etc, then do lightweight flywheel, exhaust/decat, remap, throttle body. Then the diff etc etc.
On the basis of your's, Cmoose's and my experience with the SVP Cayman, I think you'd be building something special by basing it on a CR. ust make sure you make all the mods reversible, and that you keep all the original parts you remove.
As I mentioned to you previously, beware of the "journey" becoming more important than the "holiday" itself.
Beedub said:
J-P any pics of how your car currently stands at the moment?? this is a very interesting thread BTW... I'm watching it closely with a real conundrum on my mind. I spec'd the car id want and its reached 81k nothing at all out-landish.
This is mine... I managed to get spec to £73k when I did GT4 build on the configurator but it didn't have everything I'd want.
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