EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
This was surely always going to happen. People with the money and / or inclination to buy an electric car will, at a certain point, have bought an electric car. Increasingly the remaining people who haven't replaced their ICE or hybrid car with an EV are going to be the people who don't have the money and / or inclination to do so. I guess the rate of uptake will reduce somewhat.
romft123 said:
Ankh87 said:
tamore said:
Unreal said:
I was thinking about the issues around EV uptake in terms of transitioning people from diesel and to a lesser extent petrol to EV.
I wonder if one way to help this would be to shift all the benefits and incentives to the opposite end of the market with generous scrappage schemes and discounts for people with cheap old ICE cars. Those company directors don't need the money and aren't as numerous as the poorer members of society. Those poorer people get into newer, more reliable and environmentally friendly vehicles which are much cheaper to run and rich people can afford the EVs without subsidies anyway. Couple that with building the EV equivalent of the people's car and job done.
need more affordable models before you can do that. RRP, not the 100 or so heavily discounted models on AT. before someone pipes up.I wonder if one way to help this would be to shift all the benefits and incentives to the opposite end of the market with generous scrappage schemes and discounts for people with cheap old ICE cars. Those company directors don't need the money and aren't as numerous as the poorer members of society. Those poorer people get into newer, more reliable and environmentally friendly vehicles which are much cheaper to run and rich people can afford the EVs without subsidies anyway. Couple that with building the EV equivalent of the people's car and job done.
they are coming in the next 12 months. hope the article i saw yesterday about tesla pressing on with the model 2 at $25k is right.
LowTread said:
Find me another 450bhp car with 3yr+ drivetrain warranty that costs 2.5p/mile in fuel that i can pay 300/month to buy, tax, service and insure, that'll i'll own outright in 3yrs
I see that and raise you a 585hp car that costs 2.6p/ mile to run and comes with a 7 year (whole car) warranty…_Hoppers said:
LowTread said:
So pretty rubbish efficiency of around 3.2 miles/kwh.
Yesterday I was trying to work out the potential fuel savings by going to a Model 3. How many miles/kwh do you reckon is achievable from 'normal' driving?Jan 3.3
Feb 3.8
Mar 3.8
Apr 4.0
Aprils weird because it’s gone cold in the mornings so heaters on and again in the evenings.
Downward said:
I wonder though although sales of new EV’s are down how many folks who maybe leased a brand new EV have either
A. Got a new car on lease and what time.
B. Gone back to a used ICE
C. Bought a used EV
Diesels are down even more......which you omitted to say.A. Got a new car on lease and what time.
B. Gone back to a used ICE
C. Bought a used EV
Petrol engined car sales are down even more.....which you omitted to say.....
trumpton7291 said:
Apparently nobody wants EVs in Europe either. Could the thread title be more accurate...? 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/18/ft...
Electric car sales plummeted across Europe last month as demand dried up despite the EU’s push to ban petrol and diesel vehicles by the middle of the next decade.
Sales of battery-powered cars dropped by 11.3pc as demand in Germany, Europe’s largest economy, plunged by 28.9pc, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA).
Only 13pc of new registrations were electric, down from 13.9pc in March last year and down from 14.6pc for all of 2023.
Sales of electric cars have stalled despite Europe’s plans to ban the sale of new internal combustion engine cars by 2035.
And here’s the rest of the article you forgot to mention:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/18/ft...
Electric car sales plummeted across Europe last month as demand dried up despite the EU’s push to ban petrol and diesel vehicles by the middle of the next decade.
Sales of battery-powered cars dropped by 11.3pc as demand in Germany, Europe’s largest economy, plunged by 28.9pc, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA).
Only 13pc of new registrations were electric, down from 13.9pc in March last year and down from 14.6pc for all of 2023.
Sales of electric cars have stalled despite Europe’s plans to ban the sale of new internal combustion engine cars by 2035.
‘It came as new vehicle registrations overall fell by 5.3pc across the European Union to 1m last month.
The ACEA has blamed the fall in sales in March on the early Easter holidays.
Hybrid cars accounted for 29pc of the market in March, up from 24.4pc in the same month a year ago.
Petrol vehicle sales also decreased by 10.2pc, with notable reductions in France, Spain and Germany.
The downturn in the diesel market was even more severe, with an 18.5pc drop in March.’
And you forgot to mention the increase in EV sales in the UK
_Hoppers said:
LowTread said:
So pretty rubbish efficiency of around 3.2 miles/kwh.
Yesterday I was trying to work out the potential fuel savings by going to a Model 3. How many miles/kwh do you reckon is achievable from 'normal' driving?My 160 mile commute
Tesla @ 3.5 miles/kwh @ £0.075/kwh = ~£3.50
Ioniq @ 60mpg = 12.1 litres @ £1.50/L = ~£18.
M2 @ 30mpg = 24.2 litres @ £1.50/L = ~£36.
Per month
With 4x commutes per month, plus around 200 miles per week of visiting family, school runs, etc, etc my total mileage per month is about 1500 miles.
Tesla @ 3.5 miles/kwh @ £0.075/kwh = £32
Ioniq @ 60mpg = 113.5 litres @ £1.50/L = ~£170.
M2 @ 30mpg = 227 litres @ £1.50/L = ~£340.
So in terms of "fuel" costs the Tesla is roughly 5x cheaper than an ioniq hybrid, and 10x cheaper than an M2.
I've increased my direct debit to Octopus by £30/month, and now don't pay for fuel. I've taken roughly £150-£200 per month and am shoving that extra amount into my ISA.
Interesting to compare the actual kWh consumed by each per month
Given petrol holds about 9.5 kWh per litre, that gives.
Tesla @ 3.5 miles/kwh = 429 kWh
Ioniq @ 60mpg = 1078 kWh
M2 @ 30mpg = 2156 kWh
So in terms of energy consumed it is roughly 2.5x as efficient as an ioniq hybrid and 5x as efficient as an M2.
(All of the above assumes you 100% home charge, which for my daily usage is true)
YMMV
soxboy said:
And here’s the rest of the article you forgot to mention:
‘It came as new vehicle registrations overall fell by 5.3pc across the European Union to 1m last month.
The ACEA has blamed the fall in sales in March on the early Easter holidays.
Hybrid cars accounted for 29pc of the market in March, up from 24.4pc in the same month a year ago.
Petrol vehicle sales also decreased by 10.2pc, with notable reductions in France, Spain and Germany.
The downturn in the diesel market was even more severe, with an 18.5pc drop in March.’
And you forgot to mention the increase in EV sales in the UK
It’s weird isn’t it. People with zero skin in the EV world seize upon articles from the Telegraph and Mail as if the sky is falling and that all car sales are always upwards every month, and then selectively quote the bits they like. ‘It came as new vehicle registrations overall fell by 5.3pc across the European Union to 1m last month.
The ACEA has blamed the fall in sales in March on the early Easter holidays.
Hybrid cars accounted for 29pc of the market in March, up from 24.4pc in the same month a year ago.
Petrol vehicle sales also decreased by 10.2pc, with notable reductions in France, Spain and Germany.
The downturn in the diesel market was even more severe, with an 18.5pc drop in March.’
And you forgot to mention the increase in EV sales in the UK
I can’t imagine what it’s like to post repeatedly about cars you don’t own. Bizarre behaviour.
LowTread said:
Lots of figures
YMMV
And EV's make total sense if you have easy charging at home and your regular journey is easily covered in one charge no matter how you drive, what accessories you're running or what the weather is like. No brainer. That's not the case for an awful lot of people though. YMMV
I've been running an electric motorbike for the last couple of years for my commute into the smoke. Never used a remote charger and wouldn't dream of going anywhere on it if I thought I would.
But if I didn't have easy home charging and the vast majority of my journeys couldn't be covered on one charge I wouldn't touch an EV with a barge pole. I'd much rather pay the additional cost of ICE and reduce my stress levels.
Harry H said:
And EV's make total sense if you have easy charging at home and your regular journey is easily covered in one charge no matter how you drive, what accessories you're running or what the weather is like. No brainer. That's not the case for an awful lot of people though.
I've been running an electric motorbike for the last couple of years for my commute into the smoke. Never used a remote charger and wouldn't dream of going anywhere on it if I thought I would.
But if I didn't have easy home charging and the vast majority of my journeys couldn't be covered on one charge I wouldn't touch an EV with a barge pole. I'd much rather pay the additional cost of ICE and reduce my stress levels.
I looked at the pros and cons but it currently doesn't make sense for me, and I daresay many others:I've been running an electric motorbike for the last couple of years for my commute into the smoke. Never used a remote charger and wouldn't dream of going anywhere on it if I thought I would.
But if I didn't have easy home charging and the vast majority of my journeys couldn't be covered on one charge I wouldn't touch an EV with a barge pole. I'd much rather pay the additional cost of ICE and reduce my stress levels.
Pros:
Acceleration and speed
Potentially cheaper charging at home (but for how long…?)
Cons:
Range – particularly this time of year, cold conditions, warm conditions, uncertainty
Charging network, broken chargers, non standardized apps, lack of free chargers, charging time
Weight and handling
Charging in cold conditions
Charging in warm conditions
Tax: Congestion charge exemption ends next year
VED luxury tax payable from next year
Not suitable for longer distances
Battery degradation
Reliability – new tech issues reported e.g. etron etc
Repairs – limited skills and non dealer garage support, expensive, expensive components
Fires, Anglesey ban etc
Much higher insurance costs
Soulless white goods
Towing issues and excessive battery drain
Maybe the scales will flip one day but probably not for a while, or until solid state batteries resolve the range and charging time issues.
Find me an Approved Used 2022 reg VW Golf for under £13k:
https://www.marshall.co.uk/used/17366160-nissan-le...
Range, schmange. For someone who hardly ever drives long distance, why would you want to pay more?
I'm on my second Leaf. Had a 24kwh for three years, then a 30kwh for three years, going to upgrade to a 40kwh shortly I think. Reliability issues? Zero. Maintenance costs? Zero. Service costs? Minimal. Fuel costs? Laughably small. Depreciation? No worse than anything else I've ever owned, file under "s
t happens". Range anxiety? Never experienced once. For my daily use around town, school runs, commuting, shopping, why would I want a smelly, noisy ICE. A Leaf is perfect for that.
Yeah, I have another ICE estate car for long drives. 3 Driving licenses in the family, soon to be 4, so we're gonna have at least 2 cars on the drive. But it makes absolutely no sense to have anything other than an EV for most of the miles we do.
So yeah, in reply to the thread title, someone wants them. Me.
https://www.marshall.co.uk/used/17366160-nissan-le...
Range, schmange. For someone who hardly ever drives long distance, why would you want to pay more?
I'm on my second Leaf. Had a 24kwh for three years, then a 30kwh for three years, going to upgrade to a 40kwh shortly I think. Reliability issues? Zero. Maintenance costs? Zero. Service costs? Minimal. Fuel costs? Laughably small. Depreciation? No worse than anything else I've ever owned, file under "s
t happens". Range anxiety? Never experienced once. For my daily use around town, school runs, commuting, shopping, why would I want a smelly, noisy ICE. A Leaf is perfect for that.Yeah, I have another ICE estate car for long drives. 3 Driving licenses in the family, soon to be 4, so we're gonna have at least 2 cars on the drive. But it makes absolutely no sense to have anything other than an EV for most of the miles we do.
So yeah, in reply to the thread title, someone wants them. Me.
740EVTORQUES said:
LowTread said:
Find me another 450bhp car with 3yr+ drivetrain warranty that costs 2.5p/mile in fuel that i can pay 300/month to buy, tax, service and insure, that'll i'll own outright in 3yrs
I see that and raise you a 585hp car that costs 2.6p/ mile to run and comes with a 7 year (whole car) warranty…JNW1 said:
740EVTORQUES said:
LowTread said:
Find me another 450bhp car with 3yr+ drivetrain warranty that costs 2.5p/mile in fuel that i can pay 300/month to buy, tax, service and insure, that'll i'll own outright in 3yrs
I see that and raise you a 585hp car that costs 2.6p/ mile to run and comes with a 7 year (whole car) warranty…trombone887 said:
Harry H said:
And EV's make total sense if you have easy charging at home and your regular journey is easily covered in one charge no matter how you drive, what accessories you're running or what the weather is like. No brainer. That's not the case for an awful lot of people though.
I've been running an electric motorbike for the last couple of years for my commute into the smoke. Never used a remote charger and wouldn't dream of going anywhere on it if I thought I would.
But if I didn't have easy home charging and the vast majority of my journeys couldn't be covered on one charge I wouldn't touch an EV with a barge pole. I'd much rather pay the additional cost of ICE and reduce my stress levels.
I looked at the pros and cons but it currently doesn't make sense for me, and I daresay many others:I've been running an electric motorbike for the last couple of years for my commute into the smoke. Never used a remote charger and wouldn't dream of going anywhere on it if I thought I would.
But if I didn't have easy home charging and the vast majority of my journeys couldn't be covered on one charge I wouldn't touch an EV with a barge pole. I'd much rather pay the additional cost of ICE and reduce my stress levels.
Pros:
Acceleration and speed
Potentially cheaper charging at home (but for how long…?)
Cons:
Range – particularly this time of year, cold conditions, warm conditions, uncertainty
Charging network, broken chargers, non standardized apps, lack of free chargers, charging time
Weight and handling
Charging in cold conditions
Charging in warm conditions
Tax: Congestion charge exemption ends next year
VED luxury tax payable from next year
Not suitable for longer distances
Battery degradation
Reliability – new tech issues reported e.g. etron etc
Repairs – limited skills and non dealer garage support, expensive, expensive components
Fires, Anglesey ban etc
Much higher insurance costs
Soulless white goods
Towing issues and excessive battery drain
Maybe the scales will flip one day but probably not for a while, or until solid state batteries resolve the range and charging time issues.
4+ years with an EV and I don't really think any of that has impacted my usage.
Is this your experience of living with an EV? Curious.
At the risk of firing up the very pro-EV end of this discussion or getting any one sector wound up I'd like to give an airing to Matt Prior's column in this week's Autocar.
He is commenting on the SMMT's call to halve VAT on EVs by half to boost demand. There is some back of envelope maths to suggest this could cost the exchequer significantly, approx 5 billion, which by a further bit of beer mat calculation is rounded down to 4 billion, where Matt equates that for each of the 28.2m UK households results in a smaller public purse of £141.
His last two paragraphs go roughly as follows, unfortunately can't provide a link as it's not online except to subscribers.
The sooner we get some realistic pricing and particularly next year aren't then paying luxury car tax based on a P11D figure dreamed up by some marketing graduate the better and that's without fixing the fiscal drag by chancellors. EVs need to get to a position where they can wash their face against the opposition, or else there will be resistance we're seeing against heat pumps, boiler tax being shelved / delayed and so on.
I expect the usual sneering responses about poor people don't have to until etc which really doesn't do anyone any favours as it presumes that no sticks will be applied on ICE and fuel to encourage the shift. There will not be and should not be any more carrots, there is no money, which comes back to Matt's basic point.
He is commenting on the SMMT's call to halve VAT on EVs by half to boost demand. There is some back of envelope maths to suggest this could cost the exchequer significantly, approx 5 billion, which by a further bit of beer mat calculation is rounded down to 4 billion, where Matt equates that for each of the 28.2m UK households results in a smaller public purse of £141.
His last two paragraphs go roughly as follows, unfortunately can't provide a link as it's not online except to subscribers.
Matt Prior in Autocar said:
"There are people in my life, and probably in yours, at the start of their careers, who... (examples of rent, running a cheap superminis with a fuel tax rate of over 50%) ... are lucky if they get to the end of the month with as much money as they started. I'm not ready to ask them to forgo £140 of public services over the next three years, or make it up themselves, just so matey can give the Chinese £40,000 and then fuel their car at 5% tax rate.
The numbers vary but the point remains: what amount is okay for the poor to subsidise the rich?"
It's a very fair question in my opinion.The numbers vary but the point remains: what amount is okay for the poor to subsidise the rich?"
The sooner we get some realistic pricing and particularly next year aren't then paying luxury car tax based on a P11D figure dreamed up by some marketing graduate the better and that's without fixing the fiscal drag by chancellors. EVs need to get to a position where they can wash their face against the opposition, or else there will be resistance we're seeing against heat pumps, boiler tax being shelved / delayed and so on.
I expect the usual sneering responses about poor people don't have to until etc which really doesn't do anyone any favours as it presumes that no sticks will be applied on ICE and fuel to encourage the shift. There will not be and should not be any more carrots, there is no money, which comes back to Matt's basic point.
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