A vision for WRC

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MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

216 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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Too anoraky for my usual Sabotage Times haunt, I was going to post this on my sprodically-updated blog, but I'd only end up posting a link to it here, so I thought I'd cut out the middle man.

It's a bit long for a forum post, so I'm expecting a lot of TLDRs but I hope you likey:

I've found myself banging on about the WRC’s short-comings rather a lot recently – it’s in a bit of a sorry state at the moment (understatement of 2012?) and I do feel a bit guilty about kicking it while it’s down, but I truly believe the time has come for it to be put out of its misery.

Of course, I’m aware of the tv/promoter issues, but I think that’s an effect, not a cause. The real problem with the WRC is with the cars.

I get quite a bit of stick for objecting to the machinery, particularly on PistonHeads, and mostly I get abused (probably by the youngsters) for just being an old bar steward who wants Group B cars back. I am, and I sort of do, but that’s silly, and it's never what I’m getting at.

What I am getting at is that the WRC has completely lost sight of what rallying was, and should be about, which is welding a roll cage in to a road car, chucking some gravel tyres and a sump guard on it and firing it down a forest road with a total nutter behind the wheel. Yes, the ‘homologation era' brought us some flipping fantastic rally and, more importantly, road cars, but the sad fact is that when the manufacturers realised that rather than rallying their road cars they should road their rally cars, we saw the beginning of the problems that have brought the championship to its knees. Clearly terrified of losing manufacturers like Ford when building rally cars for the road started to get very expensive, the FIA apparently chose to forget the history and turn the WRC in to a prototype series. And so began the slow decline.

I know, I know, this is a massive over-simplification, but I think my point stands: the cars have no relevance to anything, but the manufacturers like to pretend they do (annoying; we're not idiots) and, most importantly of all, the griptongue outower ratio is all out of whack. But, that’s enough problems; it’s time for a solution.

At the moment there is not a single manufacturer that builds a car that it can go to the WRC with. That seems weird as I write it down. You want in to world rallying? You’ve pretty much got to build a custom, from-the-ground-up racing machine. No matter how ‘cheap’ the FIA makes WRC, that’s an enormous barrier to entry and a pointless exercise for any manufacturer (here it comes) 'in the current climate'.

There is a way out of the doldrums though. The recently-launched-on-the-quiet Subaru BRZ and Toyota GT86 and the slew of similar rear-wheel-drive coupes on the market and hitting motor shows are the perfect basis for a renewed and re-invigorated World Rally Championship (if you’re not already nodding your head in agreement, go to YouTube and type in ‘Mark 2 Escort, Kris Meeke’ and you’ll get the idea). Joining them would be the Mazda MX5 (hurrah!) and, providing that Audi was willing to build a few hundred rear-wheel drive versions of its TT, we could see one of the most iconic rallying manufacturers back in the WRC. Alfa Romeo 4C, you say? Why not?

Now, I know this might seem a bit pie in the sky, but give it some thought and it makes perfect sense. Right now Subaru, Toyota, Hyundai, Alfa Romeo, BMW, Mazda, Lotus and (with a bit of artistic licence) Audi all build a road car that could compete in this new World Rally Championship with the simple addition of some lightness, a roll cage and the aforementioned sump guard, gravel tyres and nutter behind the wheel.

So there you have it. A World Rally Championship based on road cars being put miles outside their comfort zone – a test of man and machine and a true spectacle, contested in cars that you and I can not only theoretically walk into a showroom and buy, but might actually be able to afford one day. Fancy that. Most importantly of all though – sideways!

The total mess the WRC is in at the moment is a chance for the FIA to bring the World Rally Championship back to basics. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to strip the series back and start again, I just hope they have the balls to take it.

andy97

4,703 posts

222 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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I must admit that i tend to agree with the basic principle, and even as an Audi quattro owner I do blame Audi for starting the whole 4WD revolution & complexity off.

My formula would be based on largely GT4 type regs but across the spectrum and 2WD only. probably have to have a limit on the revs,the turbo boost where applicable & wheel sizes but definately no traction control or trick diffs.

Class A - Rally GTs (think the AM N24, Porsche GT3, Porsche cayman, BMW M3, Audi TT GT4)

Class B - 2 litre Turbos (Think BTCC NGTC type cars but allow cars in with 2 seats & 2 doors)

Class C - As above but 2 litre N/A only

Class D - As above but 1600 N/A

fatboy69

9,372 posts

187 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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Bring back Group B cars......

mrmr96

13,736 posts

204 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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I like your thinking but got lost. Can you please summarise what you want in two sentences max?

Cheers.

EDLT

15,421 posts

206 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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And then, of course you'd have to ban everybody from playing in old Subarus/Evos/S2000-spec cars/Old WRC cars/Home built specials because WRC has to be the fastest. Also, not only does your 'solution' require require hundreds of people the throw there now useless cars away, they also have to buy a new car that is very low and has short-travel suspension so will require a lot of modification before they can even drive it on gravel.

All this at a time when there is very little money flowing around.

GravelBen

15,687 posts

230 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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Just make PWRC the main series but raise the effective power limit, and add a 2wd class with a lower weight limit to even things up a bit. Sorted. smile

GravelBen

15,687 posts

230 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
And then, of course you'd have to ban everybody from playing in old Subarus/Evos/S2000-spec cars/Old WRC cars/Home built specials because WRC has to be the fastest.
This is probably a big part of the problem I think, manufacturers don't want a 'lesser' class having faster cars than them even if they aren't eligible for the same championship.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

216 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
GravelBen said:
This is probably a big part of the problem I think, manufacturers don't want a 'lesser' class having faster cars than them even if they aren't eligible for the same championship.
And this is one of the things that really pisses me off about it. They won't let the cars 'actually' be fast, but won't slow them for the sake of entertainment.

I mean, who actually cares about outright stage times? Rallying has never been about being the fastest motorsport.

As for people 'having to throw away their cars' I don't think that's really a valid point - people have had to do that periodically anyway and you could make regulatory concesions to ease the transition for privateers.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

216 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
I like your thinking but got lost. Can you please summarise what you want in two sentences max?

Cheers.
Blimey, the internet really has killed attention spans, hasn't it? wink

Rear wheel drive cars. Cars that you can actually buy.

The first one is really to bring back some obvious 'movement' to the cars, rather than Mark 2 Escort nostalgia. 4WD is now so effective and complex (combined with incredible tyre technology) rallying doesn't look quite as hairy as it used to. Everything happens too quickly and the range of movement between 'fast' and 'crash' is far too fine.

The second is because I'm sick of watching a sport that was borne out of the idea of seeing how far you could push a road car being contested by custom built race machines, which is in itself a huge barrier to entry.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

216 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
Also, I'm not saying this is a 'solution' for rallying. I'm saying it's a solution for WRC, which I would say is not really rallying anymore.

Ranger 6

7,052 posts

249 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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MrKipling43 said:
...I mean, who actually cares about outright stage times? Rallying has never been about being the fastest motorsport....
I think you mean outright speed rather than stage times, because rallying without stage times is drifting.....

groomi

9,317 posts

243 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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IMHO the Group A and Group N regs used to work pretty well. The cars were recogniseable, GrpN was very much a modified road car and GrpA was rather more serious, but nothing like the purpose built racers of today.

I'd also like to see fwd/rwd/4wd classes within the groups. Yes, 4wd will be quicker on the gravel, but possibly not on tarmac if the weight limits are balanced correctly.

The big boys who want maximum exposure will still go for 4wd because over a championship, they'll be fighting for overall honours, but who wouldn't like to see more manufacturers (or semi-works teams) developing much cheaper 2wd machines which can have their own class to shout about but still be in with the occasional chance of a win?

EDLT

15,421 posts

206 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
MrKipling43 said:
GravelBen said:
This is probably a big part of the problem I think, manufacturers don't want a 'lesser' class having faster cars than them even if they aren't eligible for the same championship.
And this is one of the things that really pisses me off about it. They won't let the cars 'actually' be fast, but won't slow them for the sake of entertainment.

I mean, who actually cares about outright stage times? Rallying has never been about being the fastest motorsport.

As for people 'having to throw away their cars' I don't think that's really a valid point - people have had to do that periodically anyway and you could make regulatory concesions to ease the transition for privateers.
Everybody cares about overall stage times. What would be the point of spending all that money developing a RWD WRC car when an S2000 spec car would be far faster? Nobody would bother so AWD would have to be scrapped.

RWD cars wouldn't move around like Mk2 Escorts either, the stability has come from advances in tyre and suspension technology. Look at every other modern motorsport, we don't see RWD circuit racers sliding around like they used to.

mrmr96

13,736 posts

204 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
MrKipling43 said:
mrmr96 said:
I like your thinking but got lost. Can you please summarise what you want in two sentences max?

Cheers.
Blimey, the internet really has killed attention spans, hasn't it? wink

Rear wheel drive cars. Cars that you can actually buy.

The first one is really to bring back some obvious 'movement' to the cars, rather than Mark 2 Escort nostalgia. 4WD is now so effective and complex (combined with incredible tyre technology) rallying doesn't look quite as hairy as it used to. Everything happens too quickly and the range of movement between 'fast' and 'crash' is far too fine.

The second is because I'm sick of watching a sport that was borne out of the idea of seeing how far you could push a road car being contested by custom built race machines, which is in itself a huge barrier to entry.
Yeah, I was just thinking that sam...... hey is that a picture of a kitten?

Where was I?

I don't think that 4WD is a problem, per-se, but things that would make it more exciting would be if the cars were proper homolegation specials again. Not sure what's changed in the rules, but the current ones seems to be just "silhouettes" of the cars they are supposedly based on. Whereas go back to the 90's and you have the Evos and Imprezas where trick diffs, water sprays for the intercooler etc made there way into the road cars because the manufacturers wanted to use them in racing.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

216 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
Everybody cares about overall stage times. What would be the point of spending all that money developing a RWD WRC car when an S2000 spec car would be far faster? Nobody would bother so AWD would have to be scrapped.
But the point is you wouldn't spend 'all that money' developing a RWD WRC, you would be rallying a modified road car (like someone else said) Group A style, but with RWD/if it's not RWD on the road get lost stipulated in the regs.

I know what you're saying - 'what's the point of LMP1 if the GT3 cars are faster?' - kind of thing right? I get that, but it's that sort of attitude that is stifling WRC.

Just look at MotoGP and Superbikes at the moment - I know they don't share a track, but bear with me - MotoGP is getting quite boring, Superbikes are INCREDIBLE at the moment, and that's reflected in their relative popularity (waning, waxing). A MotoGP bike would DESTROY a Superbike in every area, but it doesn't matter - all spectators care about is spectacle, I think. Especially in things like rallying.

EDLT said:
RWD cars wouldn't move around like Mk2 Escorts either, the stability has come from advances in tyre and suspension technology. Look at every other modern motorsport, we don't see RWD circuit racers sliding around like they used to.
Of course they wouldn't move around like Mk2 Escorts, but they'd be a lot more mobile than a current spec WRC car - especially on a loose surface. You also regulate tyre widths.

Charlie Foxtrot

3,044 posts

215 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
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Solid rear axles, spool (100% locked) diffs and ling long remould tyres.

Seriously, look at what Pirelli did for F1. It can't be too difficult to do that to rallying too.

And I do also agree with the cars, when they stop being prototypes is when it starts to get interesting again.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

216 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
I don't think that 4WD is a problem, per-se, but things that would make it more exciting would be if the cars were proper homolegation specials again.
People tend to get this bit of rallying mixed up.

This is a brief MASSIVELY simplified history of rallying cars:

People start rallying road cars

Manufacturers start rallying their road cars

Manufacturers realise that if they build a road car that's designed for rallying, they can win rallying

Building a road car for rallying gets expensive, so manufacturers start wavering on their commitment to rallying

FIA craps its pants and says 'oh just do whatever you want, forget about the road car bit'

The last thing we need back is homologation, what we need to have back is the idea of the WRC being a production car-based series. Honestly, the bit about rear-wheel drive is incidental really. A happy coming together of the fact that these cars would be perfect for a win on Sunday sell on Monday type approach, as they're all (I think) in the sub-£30k price bracket, they're RWD so might be a bit more exciting on stage and lots of manufacturers are building that sort of car at the moment.

4WD is only a problem because no one is really building 4WD 'rallyable' cars at the moment. It's the reason that the WRC is full of protptypes. They're stuck on this idea that a rally car should be a 4WD hatchback. And that's a mistake.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 8th February 12:43

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

216 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
Charlie Foxtrot said:
Seriously, look at what Pirelli did for F1. It can't be too difficult to do that to rallying too.
Quite.

Charlie Foxtrot said:
And I do also agree with the cars, when they stop being prototypes is when it starts to get interesting again.
Thanks. smile

EDLT

15,421 posts

206 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
MrKipling43 said:
EDLT said:
Everybody cares about overall stage times. What would be the point of spending all that money developing a RWD WRC car when an S2000 spec car would be far faster? Nobody would bother so AWD would have to be scrapped.
But the point is you wouldn't spend 'all that money' developing a RWD WRC, you would be rallying a modified road car (like someone else said) Group A style, but with RWD/if it's not RWD on the road get lost stipulated in the regs.

I know what you're saying - 'what's the point of LMP1 if the GT3 cars are faster?' - kind of thing right? I get that, but it's that sort of attitude that is stifling WRC.

Just look at MotoGP and Superbikes at the moment - I know they don't share a track, but bear with me - MotoGP is getting quite boring, Superbikes are INCREDIBLE at the moment, and that's reflected in their relative popularity (waning, waxing). All spectators care about is spectacle, I think. Especially in things like rallying.

EDLT said:
RWD cars wouldn't move around like Mk2 Escorts either, the stability has come from advances in tyre and suspension technology. Look at every other modern motorsport, we don't see RWD circuit racers sliding around like they used to.
Of course they wouldn't move around like Mk2 Escorts, but they'd be a lot more mobile than a current spec WRC car - especially on a loose surface. You also regulate tyre widths.
If you throw out anything that isn't RWD then you'll throw out all three manufacturers currently in the sport. Great idea. There is no guarantee that BMW/Toyota/Mazda etc would be interested in stepping in.

MotoGP got boring once they started trying to slow them down, which is essentially what you want to do with WRC.

Regulating tyre widths won't make the cars move around more, more sliding = more tyre wear so driver will avoid it.

My last point is everyone likes to avoid on PH: WRC is still popular in France, Scandinavia, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Argentina and getting more popular in the USA. Even in the "boring" times with the C4 vs Focus stages were cancelled because too many spectators turned up to watch. The reason it isn't popular in the UK is because we don't have any top class drivers competing.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

216 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
If you throw out anything that isn't RWD then you'll throw out all three manufacturers currently in the sport. Great idea. There is no guarantee that BMW/Toyota/Mazda etc would be interested in stepping in.
Well obviously you would approach them before you threw the current regs in the bin!

And, sorry to be a pedant, but there are not three manufacturers in WRC, there's one: Citroen. The others are 'works supported', one of which is already BMW and even they're trying to back out. Probably because the car they're rallying has nothing whatsoever to do with the car they're trying to sell. The DTM car they'll be racing has more in common with an M3 than the WRC ryman has in common with the MINI road car.

EDLT said:
MotoGP got boring once they started trying to slow them down, which is essentially what you want to do with WRC.
No, MotoGP got boring when there started to be more grip than power.

EDLT said:
Regulating tyre widths won't make the cars move around more, more sliding = more tyre wear so driver will avoid it.
Not if it's faster they won't. Make the tyres harder, and make them narrower.

EDLT said:
My last point is everyone likes to avoid on PH: WRC is still popular in France, Scandinavia, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Argentina and getting more popular in the USA. Even in the "boring" times with the C4 vs Focus stages were cancelled because too many spectators turned up to watch. The reason it isn't popular in the UK is because we don't have any top class drivers competing.
I'm sorry, but while you're right that it is more popular in those countries you listed than the UK, it's nothing like as massive as it was. And if it's so popular, why aren't people falling over themselves to promote it, and put it on their TV station?

I mean, are you seriously suggesting that the WRC is just fine as it is? Are you saying that it's ok that it's not really rallying anymore?

Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 8th February 13:13