How many races until Schumacher has/does one of his "stunts"
Poll: How many races until Schumacher has/does one of his "stunts"
Total Members Polled: 174
Discussion
Whilst it is clear from the head on footage, the in-car recording is impossible to argue about.
MS moved to his right, which he was perfectly entitled to do despite JV's nose being in front. But then he turned sharp right again when the gap between them was inches.
It was patently obvious, even to the meanest intelligence, that there were two separate moves. It was the second that was penalised. It might be fun trying to defend the indefensible but it is also pointless.
With the above in mind, view the video again, this time paying special attention to the head on shot. You obviously can't see the sharp move on the steering wheel but there's a clue in what the front wheels do.
It also seems difficult to support the contention that MSc was in front when his front wheel struck the back end of JV's sidepod.
MS moved to his right, which he was perfectly entitled to do despite JV's nose being in front. But then he turned sharp right again when the gap between them was inches.
It was patently obvious, even to the meanest intelligence, that there were two separate moves. It was the second that was penalised. It might be fun trying to defend the indefensible but it is also pointless.
With the above in mind, view the video again, this time paying special attention to the head on shot. You obviously can't see the sharp move on the steering wheel but there's a clue in what the front wheels do.
It also seems difficult to support the contention that MSc was in front when his front wheel struck the back end of JV's sidepod.
Hmm. I'm happy to put Adelaide at 50:50 - Hill was experienced enough to know that you don't try and fit your car into a narrowing gap, but the Villeneuve incident is 100% MS to blame. Schumacher himself said that hitting Villeneuve was the biggest (or maybe the only, I don't exactly remember) regret of his F1 career, and I'm fairly sure he didn't mean "because it didn't work".
A lot of his other indiscretions can be written off as being on the hard side of hard-but-fair, but driving into Villeneuve was just a low act.
A lot of his other indiscretions can be written off as being on the hard side of hard-but-fair, but driving into Villeneuve was just a low act.
If one finds everything to be obvious and any discussion pointless, that's fine. I can understand that it's tedious to restate one's conclusions and assertions. I think the point here is to look again with new eyes.
I think people assume that Schumacher unwinds the lock on the steering wheel because he is surprised and begins to give space, then puts it back on to hit Jacques. If one watches the front-on shot starting at about 2:14, it looks like Schumacher was keeping the rear-end from stepping out. I watched the entry into the corner over and over while staring at the rear tires of his car. It looks like his car started to yaw. Then he puts lock back on to make the corner.
And again from the front view, look were Jacques ends up after he clips the curb--he goes straight on and ends up 8/10's of the way across the track. Where was Schumacher supposed to put is his car to avoid contact? It's not a simple matter of braking more/turning less. He could've done both and he would've hit Jacques in the middle of the track, or 3/4 of the way across, or all the way across. To avoid any contact, he would've had to driven himself straight to the edge the track and then a 1/4 car's width off of it.
It looks like the controversial 'second move' occurs at 2:18 on the vid. I think that's the moment Schumacher even had a clue that Villeneuve was attempting a pass. By then it was too late. Contact was going to be made, and it was going to happen, in no-small-part, because Villeneuve over-heated his entry. Villeneuve couldn't even turn to use more of the curb.
Schumacher's mistake was to not yield to someone who got it wrong whilst going deep. I think it is a justifiable racing incident. Schumacher was surprised, but held his line, and Villeneuve went in too hot and swiped his nose. Two stubborn racing drivers.
One can make assertions, appeal to popular opinion, and rely on the FIA's judegement, or one can try something new: try looking at the video and imagine that Schumacher isn't the opponent, but their favorite driver for their favorite team, and see if they see anything new.
When I switch my perspective from Schumi being the protagonist to the antagonist, maybe the oversteer I see disppears; maybe I can see him staying on the racing line, recklessly putting his car into the path of a competitor's.
But one thing that should be apparent in both perspectives is that Villeneuve goes in too fast and too deep.
[Edited to remove redundant statement--it made me sound to0 emphatic.]
I think people assume that Schumacher unwinds the lock on the steering wheel because he is surprised and begins to give space, then puts it back on to hit Jacques. If one watches the front-on shot starting at about 2:14, it looks like Schumacher was keeping the rear-end from stepping out. I watched the entry into the corner over and over while staring at the rear tires of his car. It looks like his car started to yaw. Then he puts lock back on to make the corner.
And again from the front view, look were Jacques ends up after he clips the curb--he goes straight on and ends up 8/10's of the way across the track. Where was Schumacher supposed to put is his car to avoid contact? It's not a simple matter of braking more/turning less. He could've done both and he would've hit Jacques in the middle of the track, or 3/4 of the way across, or all the way across. To avoid any contact, he would've had to driven himself straight to the edge the track and then a 1/4 car's width off of it.
It looks like the controversial 'second move' occurs at 2:18 on the vid. I think that's the moment Schumacher even had a clue that Villeneuve was attempting a pass. By then it was too late. Contact was going to be made, and it was going to happen, in no-small-part, because Villeneuve over-heated his entry. Villeneuve couldn't even turn to use more of the curb.
Schumacher's mistake was to not yield to someone who got it wrong whilst going deep. I think it is a justifiable racing incident. Schumacher was surprised, but held his line, and Villeneuve went in too hot and swiped his nose. Two stubborn racing drivers.
One can make assertions, appeal to popular opinion, and rely on the FIA's judegement, or one can try something new: try looking at the video and imagine that Schumacher isn't the opponent, but their favorite driver for their favorite team, and see if they see anything new.
When I switch my perspective from Schumi being the protagonist to the antagonist, maybe the oversteer I see disppears; maybe I can see him staying on the racing line, recklessly putting his car into the path of a competitor's.
But one thing that should be apparent in both perspectives is that Villeneuve goes in too fast and too deep.
[Edited to remove redundant statement--it made me sound to0 emphatic.]
Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Tuesday 22 June 03:44
35secToNuvolari said:
One can make assertions, appeal to popular opinion, and rely on the FIA's judegement, or one can try something new: try looking at the video and imagine that Schumacher isn't the opponent, but their favorite driver for their favorite team, and see if they see anything new.
I would suggest there are few who would rely on the FIA's judgement. I don't even rely on Brudle's judgement, and that despite the fact I have a lot of faith in his.There seems to be a lot of supposition as to why Schumacher moved to the right into JV. That, to me, is irrelevant. I'm looking at it as one would if one was sitting on the panel making a judgement as to blame. In that case the only thing to go on is the actions.
MSc was aware of JV's presence. There were few overtaking spots in the circuit and these wre difficult fairly easy to block if perfomrance levels were more of less the same. However, in blocking MSc allowed JV to keep close to him. He knew he was going to make a move. The only question was when.
MSc was driving on his mirrors. This is apparent in the video and during the race. It would require a tremendous leap of faith to accept that of all the corners, MSc's attention wandered away on this particular one. There is no doubt in my mind he saw the move coming.
Regardless of anyone's opinion of MSc's abilities, there can be few, if any, who believe a strenght of his was planning. And this included other people's moves.
He squeezed and then moved over again. Even if one believes he was correcting a slide, that would still make him in error.
If, as you suggest, JV would not have made the corner then I have to say that I think that is a possibility. However, against this you have to accept that he did. I'm not sure there was an awful lot of speed scrubbed off in the collision.
If JV was unable to take the corner then I would suggest that he still would have been able to all but stop and then turn. This may or may not have allowed MSc to repass. Either way, the worst that could have happened was that he would have been second.
At the time many suggested that MSc would not have made the corner either having missed his normal braking point. Impossible to say on such a short video clip.
There are few incidents on circuit that are clear cut. You have to make a decision. There are arguments either way. But unless there is a reason why he made the second move, other than, that is, trying to force JV onto the grass and so into a serious accident, and another for why he didn't say this post race as was his habit in similar situations, then I have to say I'm convinced that it was MSc's fault.
I'll check in my video collection to see if I have the in-car footage of the Ferrari. That, to me, was what sealed it.
There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support MSc doing it deliberately and, given the facts, I've got to say that I am convinced. MSc was not the type of driver to do something for no reason. But he made an error. The only thing up for argument is whether the collision was deliberate or whether all he wanted was for JV to end up on the grass and therefore out of control.
Lovely post, Derek. Thank you for taking the time. I understand that it's unlikely we'll come to a consensus, but I think the exercise will have been fruitful even if something small is discovered.
I think it's instructive that, even after the collision, which would've aided his deceleration, JV keeps going straight for quite some ways. From the angle given at the 1:10-1:12 mark, one see's JV's wheels pointed straight. I don't think he can turn. Then we see he has to extend his braking zone clear to the other side of the track, locking up the inside wheel has he does. I know that JV gets some dirt on his inside front tire, but his momentum looks to be the more considerable factor. I know you disagree, but thanks for at least entertaining me.
Cheers
I think it's instructive that, even after the collision, which would've aided his deceleration, JV keeps going straight for quite some ways. From the angle given at the 1:10-1:12 mark, one see's JV's wheels pointed straight. I don't think he can turn. Then we see he has to extend his braking zone clear to the other side of the track, locking up the inside wheel has he does. I know that JV gets some dirt on his inside front tire, but his momentum looks to be the more considerable factor. I know you disagree, but thanks for at least entertaining me.
Cheers
Derek Smith said:
mattikake said:
mattikake said:
...was that running someone off the road (actually at least for the 3rd time as I now remember him doing this to Hamilton in China this year)
Actually I can remember a 4th time as he did it to Frentzen in Canada too, was it in 2001?I'm now wondering what the actual count is?
Mind you, I was wrong in one way: I reckoned he'd kill someone one day.
You're probably looking for this footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2MeWpZSeL8
Seems clear cut to me. Schumi is turning toward the corner as JV comes alonside, then he puts extra turn into the corner, far more steering lock than is required to make the apex, as JV gets fully alongside. He knew he was there. He knew he'd make contact. Must've been deliberate. I'm 100% sure of that.
Seems clear cut to me. Schumi is turning toward the corner as JV comes alonside, then he puts extra turn into the corner, far more steering lock than is required to make the apex, as JV gets fully alongside. He knew he was there. He knew he'd make contact. Must've been deliberate. I'm 100% sure of that.
hornetrider said:
35sectonuvolari said:
Frankly, one eyed gibberish
Wowsers. I can't believe you can't see MS' culpability in that 'accident'. To any driver it's as plain as the hand in front of your face. 
Yeah I'm not being arsey or argumentative, I just cannot see how anyone with any experience of driving cannot see how Schuey made a double movement into JV, when seeing him come alongside.
BTW, I'm not disputing the fact that JV did come from a long way back, and no doubt would not have made the apex perfectly for that corner (imo). But... you don't have to do you? He was more than alongside, had track position, and was entitled to think he had the corner.
Schumachers move was a cynical attempt to swipe him off the track. Do you agree?
BTW, I'm not disputing the fact that JV did come from a long way back, and no doubt would not have made the apex perfectly for that corner (imo). But... you don't have to do you? He was more than alongside, had track position, and was entitled to think he had the corner.
Schumachers move was a cynical attempt to swipe him off the track. Do you agree?
hornetrider said:
Yeah I'm not being arsey or argumentative, I just cannot see how anyone with any experience of driving cannot see how Schuey made a double movement into JV, when seeing him come alongside.
BTW, I'm not disputing the fact that JV did come from a long way back, and no doubt would not have made the apex perfectly for that corner (imo). But... you don't have to do you? He was more than alongside, had track position, and was entitled to think he had the corner.
Schumachers move was a cynical attempt to swipe him off the track. Do you agree?
I think for years I believed what most people thought and repeated. But if I were to challenge the popular opinion, and my original opinion, I'd say: BTW, I'm not disputing the fact that JV did come from a long way back, and no doubt would not have made the apex perfectly for that corner (imo). But... you don't have to do you? He was more than alongside, had track position, and was entitled to think he had the corner.
Schumachers move was a cynical attempt to swipe him off the track. Do you agree?
I think MS was stubborn and stayed on his line, and didn't mind making contact. I also think that for JV to go in so deep, he disregarded the risk of making contact, and his decision to commit to the banzai-like move was as selfish and stubborn. JV committed to his line by hurling his car past his ability to control it. There is evidence to support that Villeneuve shared the responsibility for making contact.
Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Monday 21st June 19:58
My thoughts can be summed up as follows.
JV would probably not have made the apex, but he doesn't have to. He has track position.
He was in front of MS when MS turned in on him.
MS knew he was there.
MS knew he would win the championship if both were taken out. Hence why MS turned in.
JV would probably not have made the apex, but he doesn't have to. He has track position.
He was in front of MS when MS turned in on him.
MS knew he was there.
MS knew he would win the championship if both were taken out. Hence why MS turned in.
mattikake said:
You're probably looking for this footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2MeWpZSeL8
Seems clear cut to me. Schumi is turning toward the corner as JV comes alonside, then he puts extra turn into the corner, far more steering lock than is required to make the apex, as JV gets fully alongside. He knew he was there. He knew he'd make contact. Must've been deliberate. I'm 100% sure of that.
Thanks. That's the one. If you follow his wheels he would have never have made the corner.Seems clear cut to me. Schumi is turning toward the corner as JV comes alonside, then he puts extra turn into the corner, far more steering lock than is required to make the apex, as JV gets fully alongside. He knew he was there. He knew he'd make contact. Must've been deliberate. I'm 100% sure of that.
I was watching that with two mates, one of whom was never that good first thing in the morning, i.e. any time before 10am. The other was a Ferrari fan, although not a particular MSc nerd. The first bloke all but attacked the other one. He was really angry about the move. Us two told him to calm down and watch the replay (no Sky+) as neither of us felt it as bad as it seemed first of all. When the other chap saw the replays he got all wound up again. Mind you the Ferrari fan agreed with him. perhaps out of self defence.
I'd recorded it to VHS and we went through it almost frame by frame after the race.
It is interesting comparing it to Senna's move on Prost which took them both off. But I won't.
hornetrider said:
My thoughts can be summed up as follows.
JV would probably not have made the apex, but he doesn't have to. He has track position.
But, he didn't have track position at turn in. Again, from my perspective, he committed so early and went in so fast, passing Schumacher at some point was inevitable. Schumacher was ready to turn into the apex, largely done with his braking, but JV was still in the middle of his braking zone, unable to slow further and unable to turn into the corner. JV would probably not have made the apex, but he doesn't have to. He has track position.
A difference in the Prost/Senna video is that Prost's nose was always ahead. Although, Prost also knew that if he didn't yield he'd likely be champion.
Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Monday 21st June 21:49
35secToNuvolari said:
Apart from neither being the cheating kobbler, no. Sometime even you cannot defend the indefensible....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcRUM2w2CVY
How many YOU TUBE videos does it take?
And see the underling... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxBbKL_YrP0&fea...
..........coming along NICELY........
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