Another Porsche Boxster engine failure..
Discussion
bcnrml said:
Deva Link, since you've reverted to some civility, I shall respond.
I presented the wider evidence that you so crave by pointing out that while Henry might be doing well, Porsche new car sales were down in excess of 50% last month. More widely, while Bicester Village might be busy, it's just been reported that the retail sales index has dropped to its lowest for 25years and mortgage approvals are the lowest since records began.Crave? I ask for it for sensible debate. Crave is your choice of words, not mine. Too many people on here post wild (often bigoted) opinion as "fact", devaluing the exchange of knowledge that comes from a chat (or discussion).
Your point about retail sales data (add Bicester) is no big deal: Retail sales are coming down from a state of excess, something that is long overdue, some of said excess fuelled by easy credit. The same is true for cars that rely to a great extent on easy credit. That's life. But we're not doomed.
Only last week I was in two different building societies in the City. In each case, the staff pushed to sell me a mortgage. I don't want their offers, thanks. But mortgages are being offered, and IIRC Halifax (and others) have started cutting rates. So doom and gloom is here, huh?
When you quote Porsche's new car sales data, you make one of my points yet again. In the context of a car market that is suffering, some will suffer more. Porsche, by your own posted evidence, is suffering more than other premium car marques (and I posted evidence as early as December 2007 to demonstrate this fact).
Do you think they are suffering more because of the credit crunch alone, or does the M96 issue and the Porsche ownership experience have anything to do with it? Y'see, Mercedes and BMW and Ferrari seemed to be doing better (check the data). Aston Martin? More or less the same (but marginally better the last time I looked).
None of the above can be good for Porker residuals. And still we are in denial, are we? Very good. A useful coping mechanism.....
Some retailers have indeed gone to the wall. Just as some hedge funds (very suddenly). Mortgage approvals were inflated by a bunch of speculators, easy credit, and a rapidly expanding market for BTL. Take those off and what we have is more likely to be sensible, rather than doom and gloom. I don't think Porsche will go to the wall, but we will all suffer if the new cars are plagued by any M96 type issues.
And then what are we all left with?
Perhaps you're in the wrong place - these are public forums and are places for chat, rather than deep intellectual discussion.Ah, so since I operate in a different way to you, I'm in the wrong place, am I? Let's all think alike shall we? Do you understand every technical post that is made on here? Or anywhere else on Pistonheads? Nice reasoning.
Indeed, it doesn't pay to show off - not everyone knows what you're on about:Just because you might not know what I'm on about doesn't mean others don't. Nor does it mean I am showing off. Only the other day, Pikey was in a petrol station and someone took umbrage at his beautiful shiny 997, likely thinking he was showing off. Are you such a person, except what and how I write are to you what a shiny 997 is to that man?
I remind you: You do not have to read my posts. You really don't. Just as that person offended by Pikey's ownership of a nice 997 didn't need to look in that direction (or listen to his sports exhaust!).
You might like to try some of my humility (yes, it does exist!). Y'see, I stay out of discussions I do not understand. I mostly post when I can contribute positively. If my method of posting offends you, don't read my posts. Are you getting the message?
To quote Henry as you did is interestingly selective (as usual). You conveniently forgot that he also went on to point out that others posting in that thread seemed to know what was going on. How many of us in that thread provided evidence that the world was not comng to an end as some would have us think? Have you answered my questions posed earlier to you? No (look for my response to your chips.....).
And what bunch of stats did I post, exactly? Have you accused me of something I am not guilty of?
If your thoughts are anything like the man in the Pikey-at-Petrol-Station scenario, it seems it is you, not I, who has one or more chips to think about!
Of course I could just be winding you (and others) up! But then, some of you seem to love it, even as you protest that you don't care for it much!
A cordial saludo and another of these to you
---
That's all from me on this thread! Even if there is further provocation......I've left the room.... and my silence is not evidence of my being impolite....
Anyone else want a spread bet on how long it is until our amigo posts again?!Deva Link said:
I presented the wider evidence that you so crave by pointing out that while Henry might be doing well, Porsche new car sales were down in excess of 50% last month. More widely, while Bicester Village might be busy, it's just been reported that the retail sales index has dropped to its lowest for 25years and mortgage approvals are the lowest since records began.
Your point about retail sales data (add Bicester) is no big deal: Retail sales are coming down from a state of excess, something that is long overdue, some of said excess fuelled by easy credit. The same is true for cars that rely to a great extent on easy credit. That's life. But we're not doomed.
Only last week I was in two different building societies in the City. In each case, the staff pushed to sell me a mortgage. I don't want their offers, thanks. But mortgages are being offered, and IIRC Halifax (and others) have started cutting rates. So doom and gloom is here, huh?
When you quote Porsche's new car sales data, you make one of my points yet again. In the context of a car market that is suffering, some will suffer more. Porsche, by your own posted evidence, is suffering more than other premium car marques (and I posted evidence as early as December 2007 to demonstrate this fact).
Do you think they are suffering more because of the credit crunch alone, or does the M96 issue and the Porsche ownership experience have anything to do with it? Y'see, Mercedes and BMW and Ferrari seemed to be doing better (check the data). Aston Martin? More or less the same (but marginally better the last time I looked).
None of the above can be good for Porker residuals. And still we are in denial, are we? Very good. A useful coping mechanism.....
Some retailers have indeed gone to the wall. Just as some hedge funds (very suddenly). Mortgage approvals were inflated by a bunch of speculators, easy credit, and a rapidly expanding market for BTL. Take those off and what we have is more likely to be sensible, rather than doom and gloom. I don't think Porsche will go to the wall, but we will all suffer if the new cars are plagued by any M96 type issues.
And then what are we all left with?
Deva Link said:
Perhaps you're in the wrong place - these are public forums and are places for chat, rather than deep intellectual discussion.
Deva Link said:
Indeed, it doesn't pay to show off - not everyone knows what you're on about:
I remind you: You do not have to read my posts. You really don't. Just as that person offended by Pikey's ownership of a nice 997 didn't need to look in that direction (or listen to his sports exhaust!).
You might like to try some of my humility (yes, it does exist!). Y'see, I stay out of discussions I do not understand. I mostly post when I can contribute positively. If my method of posting offends you, don't read my posts. Are you getting the message?
To quote Henry as you did is interestingly selective (as usual). You conveniently forgot that he also went on to point out that others posting in that thread seemed to know what was going on. How many of us in that thread provided evidence that the world was not comng to an end as some would have us think? Have you answered my questions posed earlier to you? No (look for my response to your chips.....).
And what bunch of stats did I post, exactly? Have you accused me of something I am not guilty of?
If your thoughts are anything like the man in the Pikey-at-Petrol-Station scenario, it seems it is you, not I, who has one or more chips to think about!
Of course I could just be winding you (and others) up! But then, some of you seem to love it, even as you protest that you don't care for it much!
A cordial saludo and another of these to you
---
That's all from me on this thread! Even if there is further provocation......I've left the room.... and my silence is not evidence of my being impolite....
Edited by bcnrml on Tuesday 29th July 20:31
bcnrml said:
When you quote Porsche's new car sales data, you make one of my points yet again. In the context of a car market that is suffering, some will suffer more. Porsche, by your own posted evidence, is suffering more than other premium car marques (and I posted evidence as early as December 2007 to demonstrate this fact).
Do you think they are suffering more because of the credit crunch alone, or does the M96 issue and the Porsche ownership experience have anything to do with it? Y'see, Mercedes and BMW and Ferrari seemed to be doing better (check the data). Aston Martin? More or less the same (but marginally better the last time I looked).
You cannot honestly believe that a small number of engine problems on vehicles several years old is going to effect the sales figures of the world most profitable manufacture. The fact is that their best selling model is going out of fashion, fuel prices are going through the roof and we are on the verge of a recession. To compare them to BMW & Merc is frankly ridiculous, over 50% of their sales are diesels rep mobiles!Do you think they are suffering more because of the credit crunch alone, or does the M96 issue and the Porsche ownership experience have anything to do with it? Y'see, Mercedes and BMW and Ferrari seemed to be doing better (check the data). Aston Martin? More or less the same (but marginally better the last time I looked).
Your ramblings are fast becoming those of a mad man. You are now starting to contradict even those you were applauding just a few post ago.
hartech said:
I doubt the type of people who can afford a new Porsche would be put off if they discovered the weaknesses in a small number statistically that fail. If the reliability in the first few years is OK there seems little to put off new buyers.
A new Porsche is rarely bought because of long term reliability or long term re-sale values - it is bought as a symbol of what the buyer is all about, can afford, wants to be seen driving, what is fashionable to own etc and for that market.
A new Porsche is rarely bought because of long term reliability or long term re-sale values - it is bought as a symbol of what the buyer is all about, can afford, wants to be seen driving, what is fashionable to own etc and for that market.
bcnrml said:
lots.....and lots....and lots....of words
Thanks for that - I don't have time to read it though.Are you on benefits, by any chance? I think many posters here are busy working (I deal with the US so generally am working until late) and try to pop the odd post in between doing something profitable. So I apologise for un-researched comments and lack of evidence, but posts on here are inevitably brief and somewhat throwaway in nature.
Deva Link said:
bcnrml said:
lots.....and lots....and lots....of words
Thanks for that - I don't have time to read it though.Are you on benefits, by any chance? I think many posters here are busy working (I deal with the US so generally am working until late) and try to pop the odd post in between doing something profitable. So I apologise for un-researched comments and lack of evidence, but posts on here are inevitably brief and somewhat throwaway in nature.
It would be interesting to hear from Baz on this thread about the long term costs of maintaining a modern Porsche (with warranty) against older cars. My feeling is that the costs are really not that different. I have had my 944 S2 for 7 years and in that time my total spend servicing/maintainence/tyres is of the order of 2K PA average (OK I did put 70K hard miles on it and replaced everything even slightly leggy). In one year it cost me 5 grand, yet the engine runs fine and has had no serious problems. When I look at the facts and figures it seems like a 996 with a warranty from someone like Baz would be a sound move on for me. When all you doom mongers have killed the residuals on the 996 I will buy one and drive it with a big dirty grin on my face.
1 said:
bcnrml said:
When you quote Porsche's new car sales data, you make one of my points yet again. In the context of a car market that is suffering, some will suffer more. Porsche, by your own posted evidence, is suffering more than other premium car marques (and I posted evidence as early as December 2007 to demonstrate this fact).
Do you think they are suffering more because of the credit crunch alone, or does the M96 issue and the Porsche ownership experience have anything to do with it? Y'see, Mercedes and BMW and Ferrari seemed to be doing better (check the data). Aston Martin? More or less the same (but marginally better the last time I looked).
You cannot honestly believe that a small number of engine problems on vehicles several years old is going to effect the sales figures of the world most profitable manufacture. The fact is that their best selling model is going out of fashion, fuel prices are going through the roof and we are on the verge of a recession. Do you think they are suffering more because of the credit crunch alone, or does the M96 issue and the Porsche ownership experience have anything to do with it? Y'see, Mercedes and BMW and Ferrari seemed to be doing better (check the data). Aston Martin? More or less the same (but marginally better the last time I looked).
Personally if I was buying a used boxster/911 and I would have to price down/in an engine rebuild, which I probably wouldn't do for a used XK, SLK or BMW. It certainly puts me off taking the risk of any Porsche near the end of it's warranty period, I'd be more inclined to go for new or nearly new: at which price point I have a dazzling array of alternatives including a GT-R.
Running any top-marque car on a shoestring has the risk of ending in tears.
Edited by Globulator on Tuesday 29th July 22:14
Globulator said:
I wonder if it impacts residuals however which can have a knock on effect. Certainly the claim that Porsche have low depreciation is bunk, people said that Mercedes had low depreciation when they dropped a lower percentage than a ford, but there again you could buy a new ford for less then the first years Merc depreciation.
I take your point that it is all relative in monetary terms, but in % terms, then Porsche is still one of the best marques out there.You will still pay around £10k for a 10 year old boxster, which cost no more than £30k new. You will not find many cars that will only lose 70% of their value over 10 years. A mondeo will lose nearly that % in the first 3 - 4 years and is virtually worthless after 10 years.
1 said:
Globulator said:
I wonder if it impacts residuals however which can have a knock on effect. Certainly the claim that Porsche have low depreciation is bunk, people said that Mercedes had low depreciation when they dropped a lower percentage than a ford, but there again you could buy a new ford for less then the first years Merc depreciation.
I take your point that it is all relative in monetary terms, but in % terms, then Porsche is still one of the best marques out there.You will still pay around £10k for a 10 year old boxster, which cost no more than £30k new. You will not find many cars that will only lose 70% of their value over 10 years. A mondeo will lose nearly that % in the first 3 - 4 years and is virtually worthless after 10 years.
A similar age mondeo would struggle to fetch a grand.
Perhaps I can best answer (and basically agree with N.J.H.) and demonstrate our confidence in the long term costs of running a Boxster or 996 by comparing our Lifetime Maintenance Plan prices for different models - answering the question "do we find them or expect them to be expensive or cheap to run?".
When we work out these prices we base them on our expectations for the amount of service and repair work we expect to do to each model over their lifetime (as that is how long the cover can last). We do not add an amount as additional profit but just try overall to recover enough into the kitty to cover the average cost of looking after all the cars of that type that are on the scheme over their lifetime. We benefit from regular income and customer retention while customers benefit from regular modest outgoings (can stop whenever they like) and never experiencing a huge cost even if a serious fault occurs.
The 8 Valve 944, 996 and Boxster - ALL COST THE SAME and THE LOWEST (typically £44 + Vat/month for 6k/year for a Hartech sales car and £55 + Vat/month for a car bought elsewhere).
By comparison A 16 Valve 944 & 968 costs 16% more, a 944 Turbo or 993 costs 40% to 49% more and a 964, 64% to 70% more (pro rata) - (take note all you 993 owning 996 knockers).
We might of course be wrong and catch a cold - but so far all our indications are that the prices are about right - and therefore we expect the Boxster and 996 to be the least expensive of all the other models to look after.
Retail prices for the 996 or Boxster - are lower (I think) as a proportion of the new price for an 8 or 10 year old Porsche - than ever before - and with low running costs and higher performance - I agree they could ironically (and despite all the bad posts) become the best Porsche buys ever!
Baz
When we work out these prices we base them on our expectations for the amount of service and repair work we expect to do to each model over their lifetime (as that is how long the cover can last). We do not add an amount as additional profit but just try overall to recover enough into the kitty to cover the average cost of looking after all the cars of that type that are on the scheme over their lifetime. We benefit from regular income and customer retention while customers benefit from regular modest outgoings (can stop whenever they like) and never experiencing a huge cost even if a serious fault occurs.
The 8 Valve 944, 996 and Boxster - ALL COST THE SAME and THE LOWEST (typically £44 + Vat/month for 6k/year for a Hartech sales car and £55 + Vat/month for a car bought elsewhere).
By comparison A 16 Valve 944 & 968 costs 16% more, a 944 Turbo or 993 costs 40% to 49% more and a 964, 64% to 70% more (pro rata) - (take note all you 993 owning 996 knockers).
We might of course be wrong and catch a cold - but so far all our indications are that the prices are about right - and therefore we expect the Boxster and 996 to be the least expensive of all the other models to look after.
Retail prices for the 996 or Boxster - are lower (I think) as a proportion of the new price for an 8 or 10 year old Porsche - than ever before - and with low running costs and higher performance - I agree they could ironically (and despite all the bad posts) become the best Porsche buys ever!
Baz
hartech said:
Perhaps I can best answer (and basically agree with N.J.H.) and demonstrate our confidence in the long term costs of running a Boxster or 996 by comparing our Lifetime Maintenance Plan prices for different models - answering the question "do we find them or expect them to be expensive or cheap to run?".
When we work out these prices we base them on our expectations for the amount of service and repair work we expect to do to each model over their lifetime (as that is how long the cover can last). We do not add an amount as additional profit but just try overall to recover enough into the kitty to cover the average cost of looking after all the cars of that type that are on the scheme over their lifetime. We benefit from regular income and customer retention while customers benefit from regular modest outgoings (can stop whenever they like) and never experiencing a huge cost even if a serious fault occurs.
The 8 Valve 944, 996 and Boxster - ALL COST THE SAME and THE LOWEST (typically £44 + Vat/month for 6k/year for a Hartech sales car and £55 + Vat/month for a car bought elsewhere).
By comparison A 16 Valve 944 & 968 costs 16% more, a 944 Turbo or 993 costs 40% to 49% more and a 964, 64% to 70% more (pro rata) - (take note all you 993 owning 996 knockers).
We might of course be wrong and catch a cold - but so far all our indications are that the prices are about right - and therefore we expect the Boxster and 996 to be the least expensive of all the other models to look after.
Retail prices for the 996 or Boxster - are lower (I think) as a proportion of the new price for an 8 or 10 year old Porsche - than ever before - and with low running costs and higher performance - I agree they could ironically (and despite all the bad posts) become the best Porsche buys ever!
Baz
TBH I think your scheme is the only sensible way to run a Porsche without having the required finances to 'really' afford one. Your insurance averages out the costs nicely to a manageable amount: yes I would expect in general a 993 etc to cost more to run than a Boxster (I ran a 930 for some years and it was not cheap plus I just crossed my fingers that a camchain never let go) but boxster/996 owners are more prone (from simple demographics and availability) to getting surprised when a sudden engine failure occurs simply because it is a random high cost and not a simple fixed monthly payment they can plan for.When we work out these prices we base them on our expectations for the amount of service and repair work we expect to do to each model over their lifetime (as that is how long the cover can last). We do not add an amount as additional profit but just try overall to recover enough into the kitty to cover the average cost of looking after all the cars of that type that are on the scheme over their lifetime. We benefit from regular income and customer retention while customers benefit from regular modest outgoings (can stop whenever they like) and never experiencing a huge cost even if a serious fault occurs.
The 8 Valve 944, 996 and Boxster - ALL COST THE SAME and THE LOWEST (typically £44 + Vat/month for 6k/year for a Hartech sales car and £55 + Vat/month for a car bought elsewhere).
By comparison A 16 Valve 944 & 968 costs 16% more, a 944 Turbo or 993 costs 40% to 49% more and a 964, 64% to 70% more (pro rata) - (take note all you 993 owning 996 knockers).
We might of course be wrong and catch a cold - but so far all our indications are that the prices are about right - and therefore we expect the Boxster and 996 to be the least expensive of all the other models to look after.
Retail prices for the 996 or Boxster - are lower (I think) as a proportion of the new price for an 8 or 10 year old Porsche - than ever before - and with low running costs and higher performance - I agree they could ironically (and despite all the bad posts) become the best Porsche buys ever!
Baz
Your scheme is something Porsche could adopt itself to protect its residuals, I'm sure the 10 year OPC warranty limitation is hurting them more than their accountants think.
Rest assured that if I ever buy a M96/M97 engined car it will have an OPC or your warranty, meaning I'll be only buying any 'cheap and cheerful' boxsters from your garage
movilogo said:
It's surprising how Porsche manages to get away with only 2-yr warranty even for new cars!
Supply and Demand. It applies to all the other high-end manufacturers also. If you read the forum, you will read about people fighting to be first on their OPC's list for the next new model. One guy was even "a teensy bit cross" that Porsche wouldn't sell him a GT2.So whilst Porsche (and BMW et al) have had a good few years of easy money, why would they give away a waranty for free. We will see what happens over the next 24mths to Porsche's attitude, as money gets tighter.
hartech said:
You know I am not sure that residuals have agreat affect on new buyers - as there have been plenty of cars over the years whose values drop like a stone but they still seem to sell new ones (Saab, Alpha, Jaguar etc)!
Baz
Not the best examples, wouldn't you agree - maybe the low residuals are part of why any of the three are only selling a fraction of Audi, BMW, Mercedes turnover even though they've seen days when they were perceived as being on a plane or on a higher level of desirability compared to those?Baz
BOR said:
So whilst Porsche (and BMW et al) have had a good few years of easy money, why would they give away a waranty for free. We will see what happens over the next 24mths to Porsche's attitude, as money gets tighter.
Interestingly Kia now gives out a 7 year warranty on their cars - obviously they see this as an angle to get customers who worry about unexpected big bills. In the next 2-3 years I can see the number of customers in that category only increasing.TBH we are not even talking free warranty with Porsche, if Hartech can calculate an affordable warranty system for cars over 10 years old then I'm sure Porsche can, even if it costs a bit more (as it surely would) I can't see how they would lose.
Globulator said:
if Hartech can calculate an affordable warranty system for cars over 10 years old then I'm sure Porsche can, even if it costs a bit more (as it surely would) I can't see how they would lose.
Hmmmm, in general I would say the manufacturers' dealer networks are fighting a losing aftersales battle against the independent aftermarket because of their respective cost structures, at least until the manufacturers are willing to separate sales and aftersales operations both physically & in an economic sense. Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff