Another Porsche Boxster engine failure..
Discussion
Gentlemen
Its very clear.
All watercooled Porsches have to be run with OPC warranties.
An independant i spoke to has had 3 996 3.4 engines go this year so far.
Another had a 996 turbo engine go last month which cost him £14000 to rebuild.
For the last 2.5 years we havent sold a car without an OPC warranty.
Who needs the hassle ?
We now manage to convince every customer the pros and cons and they all have a warranty.
I paid £7000 to repair an engine a few years ago which had 49000 miles on it with 6 OPC stamps.I wont be paying for one again !
Porsche make it,let them warrant it and pay for it when it goes wrong.
£900 is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
Think of it like this
If they need to give you a warranty on it when its new and untouched with no wear then how could you possibly not need a warranty on it when people have thrashed it around for years...You need it more than ever before..its just obvious.
I for one am grateful that Porsche offer this for a measly £900 a year.
Its very reasonable.
I had a bloke on Saturday who wanted to buy a 996 turbo but didnt want to pay for a warranty.
His argument was that he had had 4 Porsches and nothing had ever gone wrong "except" one gearbox which cost him £4500 which he had to pay for.
Sorry but i cant understand that mentality.Thats a 25% failure rate for him but he still rather take a chance.I declined to sell him the turbo without warranty and i think after a weekend thinking he will call today and buy it with a warranty.
I know there is an argument that why do these engines go wrong and people shouldnt have to pay £900 a year to cover for that and i agree with that 100%,its not right.
Porsche is lengendary since we all had posters on our walls as kids but unfortunately these watercooled engines are not legendary and lets just warrant them and enjoy them.
My post is not intended towards the OP,just my opinion based on selling 150 of them a year and needing to sleep at night.
Joel
Its very clear.
All watercooled Porsches have to be run with OPC warranties.
An independant i spoke to has had 3 996 3.4 engines go this year so far.
Another had a 996 turbo engine go last month which cost him £14000 to rebuild.
For the last 2.5 years we havent sold a car without an OPC warranty.
Who needs the hassle ?
We now manage to convince every customer the pros and cons and they all have a warranty.
I paid £7000 to repair an engine a few years ago which had 49000 miles on it with 6 OPC stamps.I wont be paying for one again !
Porsche make it,let them warrant it and pay for it when it goes wrong.
£900 is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
Think of it like this
If they need to give you a warranty on it when its new and untouched with no wear then how could you possibly not need a warranty on it when people have thrashed it around for years...You need it more than ever before..its just obvious.
I for one am grateful that Porsche offer this for a measly £900 a year.
Its very reasonable.
I had a bloke on Saturday who wanted to buy a 996 turbo but didnt want to pay for a warranty.
His argument was that he had had 4 Porsches and nothing had ever gone wrong "except" one gearbox which cost him £4500 which he had to pay for.
Sorry but i cant understand that mentality.Thats a 25% failure rate for him but he still rather take a chance.I declined to sell him the turbo without warranty and i think after a weekend thinking he will call today and buy it with a warranty.
I know there is an argument that why do these engines go wrong and people shouldnt have to pay £900 a year to cover for that and i agree with that 100%,its not right.
Porsche is lengendary since we all had posters on our walls as kids but unfortunately these watercooled engines are not legendary and lets just warrant them and enjoy them.
My post is not intended towards the OP,just my opinion based on selling 150 of them a year and needing to sleep at night.
Joel
RSJ said:
Gentlemen
Its very clear.
All watercooled Porsches have to be run with OPC warranties.
An independant i spoke to has had 3 996 3.4 engines go this year so far.
Another had a 996 turbo engine go last month which cost him £14000 to rebuild.
For the last 2.5 years we havent sold a car without an OPC warranty.
Who needs the hassle ?
We now manage to convince every customer the pros and cons and they all have a warranty.
I paid £7000 to repair an engine a few years ago which had 49000 miles on it with 6 OPC stamps.I wont be paying for one again !
Porsche make it,let them warrant it and pay for it when it goes wrong.
£900 is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
Think of it like this
If they need to give you a warranty on it when its new and untouched with no wear then how could you possibly not need a warranty on it when people have thrashed it around for years...You need it more than ever before..its just obvious.
I for one am grateful that Porsche offer this for a measly £900 a year.
Its very reasonable.
I had a bloke on Saturday who wanted to buy a 996 turbo but didnt want to pay for a warranty.
His argument was that he had had 4 Porsches and nothing had ever gone wrong "except" one gearbox which cost him £4500 which he had to pay for.
Sorry but i cant understand that mentality.Thats a 25% failure rate for him but he still rather take a chance.I declined to sell him the turbo without warranty and i think after a weekend thinking he will call today and buy it with a warranty.
I know there is an argument that why do these engines go wrong and people shouldnt have to pay £900 a year to cover for that and i agree with that 100%,its not right.
Porsche is lengendary since we all had posters on our walls as kids but unfortunately these watercooled engines are not legendary and lets just warrant them and enjoy them.
My post is not intended towards the OP,just my opinion based on selling 150 of them a year and needing to sleep at night.
Joel
Amen.Its very clear.
All watercooled Porsches have to be run with OPC warranties.
An independant i spoke to has had 3 996 3.4 engines go this year so far.
Another had a 996 turbo engine go last month which cost him £14000 to rebuild.
For the last 2.5 years we havent sold a car without an OPC warranty.
Who needs the hassle ?
We now manage to convince every customer the pros and cons and they all have a warranty.
I paid £7000 to repair an engine a few years ago which had 49000 miles on it with 6 OPC stamps.I wont be paying for one again !
Porsche make it,let them warrant it and pay for it when it goes wrong.
£900 is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
Think of it like this
If they need to give you a warranty on it when its new and untouched with no wear then how could you possibly not need a warranty on it when people have thrashed it around for years...You need it more than ever before..its just obvious.
I for one am grateful that Porsche offer this for a measly £900 a year.
Its very reasonable.
I had a bloke on Saturday who wanted to buy a 996 turbo but didnt want to pay for a warranty.
His argument was that he had had 4 Porsches and nothing had ever gone wrong "except" one gearbox which cost him £4500 which he had to pay for.
Sorry but i cant understand that mentality.Thats a 25% failure rate for him but he still rather take a chance.I declined to sell him the turbo without warranty and i think after a weekend thinking he will call today and buy it with a warranty.
I know there is an argument that why do these engines go wrong and people shouldnt have to pay £900 a year to cover for that and i agree with that 100%,its not right.
Porsche is lengendary since we all had posters on our walls as kids but unfortunately these watercooled engines are not legendary and lets just warrant them and enjoy them.
My post is not intended towards the OP,just my opinion based on selling 150 of them a year and needing to sleep at night.
Joel
My warranty has paid for itself and I'm a great fan. Before Porsche I blew three M3 engines (you think Porsche are bad... check out the stats on the early VANOS engines...) and had each replaced hassle free by BMW. Nowadays BMW charge something stupid like double for the warranty compared to Porsche so I don't think the Porsche warranty is that bad.
People always forget that even though you can pick up a 996TT for £35k nowadays it started out as a £100k car and the running costs breakdowns are equivalent to that.
Porkie said:
RSJ said:
Another had a 996 turbo engine go last month which cost him £14000 to rebuild.
Just soiled my pantsCan you get a Porsche warranty if your car has a DMS remap and exhaust?
Its a 2002 996TT
The dealer can't tell if it's been remapped and changed back I don't think, but there will be a record of max boost etc which gives the game away.
If there's a £14k claim in the offing then Porsche will send the DME off to be looked at, either by the factory or Bosch. Any funny business and you're on your own.
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Monday 28th July 10:57
Totally agree with Joel, i know it sounds sad that the Porsche 911, a car that every car magazine i grew up reading praised it for its reliability and build quality does need this £895 a year warranty - it tells a whole story in iteslf that this car cannot be trusted to run without a warranty.
I renewed mine and will renew next year as i dont want to take the risk. It has paid for itself over other items that are common problems with the 996 but obviously not as expensive to fix as the engine blowing like the radiators,RMS,ignition coils and the air-con.
I do feel for the owner as it is allot of money and i only got mine after reading pistonheads posts as i was blinded by the car magazines biased write-ups of the 911 untill logging onto Pistonheads. (Not sure if Parkers and the like comment on these issues either - Yet)
I think Porsche was compared to Ferrari's and Lambo's with regards to there build quality and reliability which they are on a different level BUT what everyone has to remember is that they are sportscar/supercars - A Porsche Boxster at £10k cannot be ran on the same budget as a 10k MX5 no matter how tempting it is at the time. Same with the ever more present sub £20k 996's being compared to a used BMW 3 series. These sub £35k 996 TT's no matter how tempting are a no-go area for me especially if the earlier models cannot get a warranty put on them over the coming years. As someone else has said, its a £100k supercar so expect £100k supercar problems occuring now and then.
2 year warranty is a bit of joke though - If Lamborghini can offer 3 years then what are Porsche scared of??
I renewed mine and will renew next year as i dont want to take the risk. It has paid for itself over other items that are common problems with the 996 but obviously not as expensive to fix as the engine blowing like the radiators,RMS,ignition coils and the air-con.
I do feel for the owner as it is allot of money and i only got mine after reading pistonheads posts as i was blinded by the car magazines biased write-ups of the 911 untill logging onto Pistonheads. (Not sure if Parkers and the like comment on these issues either - Yet)
I think Porsche was compared to Ferrari's and Lambo's with regards to there build quality and reliability which they are on a different level BUT what everyone has to remember is that they are sportscar/supercars - A Porsche Boxster at £10k cannot be ran on the same budget as a 10k MX5 no matter how tempting it is at the time. Same with the ever more present sub £20k 996's being compared to a used BMW 3 series. These sub £35k 996 TT's no matter how tempting are a no-go area for me especially if the earlier models cannot get a warranty put on them over the coming years. As someone else has said, its a £100k supercar so expect £100k supercar problems occuring now and then.
2 year warranty is a bit of joke though - If Lamborghini can offer 3 years then what are Porsche scared of??
RSJ - I agree and have always advised (especially on here) to have the Porsche warranty if you can afford it and the car is not too old to qualify - but it doesn't matter how much people propose it - the fact remains that many owners have not got one (probably a majority as they get older than 5 years old) and so however much you yourself support it - there are still going to be a lot of owners without who have intermediate shaft bearing failure and for those - the generally unreported option I was bringing to their attention - of rebuilding - is both sensible and less expensive than a new engine and likely to be more reliable than an already used one taken from a crash damaged car - for a similar cost.
Baz
Baz
RSJ said:
His argument was that he had had 4 Porsches and nothing had ever gone wrong "except" one gearbox which cost him £4500 which he had to pay for.
Sorry but i cant understand that mentality.
Over what period had he run those cars, though? With the warranty at £900/yr (less in the past) then if he's run those cars over, say, 10 years, he's well ahead.Sorry but i cant understand that mentality.
The warranty is peace of mind, but Porsche won't be losing money on it, so, on average, customers *must* lose out.
If you buy one car, have it a year, and it goes pop, then that's a disaster.
However, buy several cars over many years and it probably doesn't make strict financial sense, always assuming of course, that you've got the ready money to pay for the repairs.
A warranty (like all insurance) costs money unless you are successful making a big enough claim - everyone chips into a kitty and those that need it get paid out of it - it's as simple as that - if you don't use it - it costs.
I agree that insisting that buyers also pay for a Porsche warranty on top of the cost of the car is a good way of a business owner and seller sleeping at night - but is it good value for money for them - if the customer is paying for it there is nothing for the seller to lose - but there is no guarantee they will renew after that year - so could still be left without any cover.
Every 996 we sell comes with a 12 month engine guarantee anyway and in our case it is included in the sales price (which is not loaded accordingly). Our Lifetime Maintenance Plan costs £660/year (for 12K/year + Vat - paid monthly) but also covers the full cost of services and the labour cost for repairs (including engines and gearboxes) with the customer usually only paying for parts.
As it includes wear and tear items like brakes, clutch, water pump etc (which everyone needs in the life of a car and therefore saves on) anyone taking it up only pays about the same overall as they would for just the services and repairs at a main agent - but that same amount with our Plan includes the warranty element - so effectively by comparison to main agent prices - gets the free labour warranty free of charge.
So they get the 12 months (12K) engine full cover FOC and effectively the Maintenance cover FOC for as long as they own the car - now IMHO that is good value for money.
Baz
I agree that insisting that buyers also pay for a Porsche warranty on top of the cost of the car is a good way of a business owner and seller sleeping at night - but is it good value for money for them - if the customer is paying for it there is nothing for the seller to lose - but there is no guarantee they will renew after that year - so could still be left without any cover.
Every 996 we sell comes with a 12 month engine guarantee anyway and in our case it is included in the sales price (which is not loaded accordingly). Our Lifetime Maintenance Plan costs £660/year (for 12K/year + Vat - paid monthly) but also covers the full cost of services and the labour cost for repairs (including engines and gearboxes) with the customer usually only paying for parts.
As it includes wear and tear items like brakes, clutch, water pump etc (which everyone needs in the life of a car and therefore saves on) anyone taking it up only pays about the same overall as they would for just the services and repairs at a main agent - but that same amount with our Plan includes the warranty element - so effectively by comparison to main agent prices - gets the free labour warranty free of charge.
So they get the 12 months (12K) engine full cover FOC and effectively the Maintenance cover FOC for as long as they own the car - now IMHO that is good value for money.
Baz
[quote=Deva Link
Over what period had he run those cars, though? With the warranty at £900/yr (less in the past) then if he's run those cars over, say, 10 years, he's well ahead.
[/quote]
I wouldnt agree with that even if it was 10 years because there are a host of others things no doubt he paid for which would have been covered by the warranty so he'd still have evened out and not have the trauma of writing out a cheque for £4500 as a lingering memory of Porsche ownership.
It would be a much nicer feeling to know that you paid each year and got the money back in one hit,a lot nicer.
Over what period had he run those cars, though? With the warranty at £900/yr (less in the past) then if he's run those cars over, say, 10 years, he's well ahead.
[/quote]
I wouldnt agree with that even if it was 10 years because there are a host of others things no doubt he paid for which would have been covered by the warranty so he'd still have evened out and not have the trauma of writing out a cheque for £4500 as a lingering memory of Porsche ownership.
It would be a much nicer feeling to know that you paid each year and got the money back in one hit,a lot nicer.
RSJ said:
Deva Link said:
Over what period had he run those cars, though? With the warranty at £900/yr (less in the past) then if he's run those cars over, say, 10 years, he's well ahead.
I wouldnt agree with that even if it was 10 years because there are a host of others things no doubt he paid for which would have been covered by the warranty so he'd still have evened out and not have the trauma of writing out a cheque for £4500 as a lingering memory of Porsche ownership.It would be a much nicer feeling to know that you paid each year and got the money back in one hit,a lot nicer.
Of course it also depends on your level of trauma to writing out £4500 cheques. I could easily afford it but nevertheless it would keep me awake at night for a month! Therefore I wouldn't dream of not having a warranty. But I do know people who couldn't give a toss.
Edited by Deva Link on Monday 28th July 12:26
I said:
The company I work for has the contract to move all the Porsche (warranty) parts returns. They're gathered from all over the UK and trunked to Porsche GB in Reading, the amount of assorted complete engines I've taken back there is shockng!
Then RSJ said:
...one gearbox which cost him £4500 which he had to pay for...
Oh yeah, gearboxes toohartech said:
A lot of sensible comments and advice on here and various opinions - some of which are spot on - but the one thing that I think has been missing is that you all seem to accept the engine is finished when a simple ball bearing failure occurs. The comments are all based around an acceptance that a simple little bearing in the engine has condemned it to that great collector of junk engines in the sky and that either a good used or brand new replacement engine is the only way out.
I don't know if it is main agent labour rates or the general decline in technician skill levels that has led to these being thought of as the only options, but it is not so expensive to replace the bearing and rebuild the engine and in days gone by - no one would have thought twice about fixing them for such minor problems. Indeed if you had a small bearing fail in an engine a few years ago - you would have been thought of as completely mad to suggest the only option was another engine.
With the opportunity to replace a few other weak but inexpensive parts at the same time - and costing much less than a new engine (and much better than a used one for similar money) to fix the actual problem should always be considered.
Baz
I don't know if it is main agent labour rates or the general decline in technician skill levels that has led to these being thought of as the only options, but it is not so expensive to replace the bearing and rebuild the engine and in days gone by - no one would have thought twice about fixing them for such minor problems. Indeed if you had a small bearing fail in an engine a few years ago - you would have been thought of as completely mad to suggest the only option was another engine.
With the opportunity to replace a few other weak but inexpensive parts at the same time - and costing much less than a new engine (and much better than a used one for similar money) to fix the actual problem should always be considered.
Baz
Yep well said. Maybe it's the throw away society we live in!!! If my engine breaks I will get it fixed as I have done with other(non Porsche)cars in the past. Deva Link said:
The warranty is peace of mind, but Porsche won't be losing money on it, so, on average, customers *must* lose out.
As insurance companies tend to make profits you should never take out an insurance on anything following your logic. There are different perspecives for individuals and owners of a portfolio...Dr S said:
Deva Link said:
The warranty is peace of mind, but Porsche won't be losing money on it, so, on average, customers *must* lose out.
As insurance companies tend to make profits you should never take out an insurance on anything following your logic. There are different perspecives for individuals and owners of a portfolio...I am quite prepared to accept that the 996 engine has issues. I am also prepared to hedge my exposure to that risk but paying a small premium of, say the cost of twelve tanks of fuel a year) to be covered if the worst happens.
Every time I get in my car and turn the key, I know that if the engine grenades I'll get a free replacement. That's worth the cost, to me.
Dr S said:
Deva Link said:
The warranty is peace of mind, but Porsche won't be losing money on it, so, on average, customers *must* lose out.
As insurance companies tend to make profits you should never take out an insurance on anything following your logic. There are different perspecives for individuals and owners of a portfolio...I did also say, in the bit of my post that you snipped, that taking out a warranty "also depends on your level of trauma to writing out £4500 cheques."
So of course it's an individual decision.
Edited by Deva Link on Monday 28th July 17:40
What would everyone do if Porsche decided to increase the (fair) £895 warranty cost to £2000, say for cars over 60000 miles? At the moment it seems like a 'no brainer' but at what point does that change? Would this make people who are happy paying £895 get very itchy feet and want to get rid as they are only happy owning the car with the OPC safety net?
ITP said:
What would everyone do if Porsche decided to increase the (fair) £895 warranty cost to £2000, say for cars over 60000 miles? At the moment it seems like a 'no brainer' but at what point does that change? Would this make people who are happy paying £895 get very itchy feet and want to get rid as they are only happy owning the car with the OPC safety net?
At that point I'd sell to someone who didn't know about the issues.Deva Link said:
paultje said:
I think that it is outragious to expect to 'need' a warranty on an expensive car of that age.
The car is *eight* years old FFS - that's the economic life of many cars these days.
FFS the 1995 Citroën ZX at my parents' which has done close to 150,000 miles is perfectly serviceable with not a spot of rust and all the major machanical components including the clutch are still the originals. The last MOT cost them all of fourty quid. That's nothing special - people have come to expect this kind of reliability and durability on cars that are worth a few hundreds at best - let alone one for which a five figure sum has changed hands fairly recently.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff