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Maz_uk
138 posts
67 months
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dazco said: Was the buyer told it would break down straight away? I said earlier on this thread that it is silly to believe that the trader is responsible for everything for at least six months, what if the owner puts no oil in or abuses the car? However, in this case I think the trader should take responsibility. How would you, or the trader, feel if you spent ANY amount of money on something that almost immediately became worthless? Traders are bound by the SOG act and cannot escape from it's terms no matter what is written into the contract, it is also illegal to sell a member of the public an unroadworthy car. I THINK  This completely depends on what purpose the vehicle was sold to fulfil, when we sell a car that we have taken in part ex to the public it is listed and sold for spares or repair only and customer is advised to trailer the vehicle away, regardless of how well the vehicle drives its for spares or repairs! If the customer is not happy with those terms I'm more than happy to sell them a quality retail car serviced, MOT'd with a warranty for £3k-£15k! How you deal with comebacks on this type of vehicle is entirely down to how you sell it, make sure the customer understands that this vehicle is not covered under SOGA and before all you pub solicitors questions how a car can not be covered - simply as the SOGA states that a vehicle of any reasonable value. So a £500 banger is NOT a vehicle of reasonable value and it could be said to make an assumption that this vehicle is only £500 because there is a good chance that there is something wrong with this vehicle.
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Autosdirect
Original Poster
58 posts
15 months
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hi there,just thaught i would update on this
i did take the car back on the agreement it was upto them to get it back to me!
anyway low and behold the car was driven back to me........ it didnt completely break down the oil light came on so he let it cool down and drove it home,
however it was indeed fooked!
obv had not been serviced in a long time,the paper element oil filter had broken down sending all the debris into the sump,blocking the oil gallories to the head
so it has now been scrapped
and just to clear a few things mentioned up!
yes im fully aware of the law and SOGA,hence why i was always going to just re fund to save any hassle,i did get some advice from someone else i know in the trade who has had dealings with a small claims over a simmerler situaion
on this occassion we think it could have gone either way! as he did only pay just above scrap value of the car,(a good £500-600 less than what it would have sold for on a pitch) he was fully aware of what was needed,and was recommended on the advert and when he came to view not to drive it away,it had no tax for a start and i dont see how he could have got any insurance onit either as the reg was no displayed on ebay and he certainly didnt arrange any while with me
anyway from now on anything i get in p/x will either get broken for spares or anything that could be worth spending some time on il get it re mot'd and prep it like we would any other car for retail
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dazco
3,329 posts
58 months
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Autosdirect said: hi there,just thaught i would update on this
i did take the car back on the agreement it was upto them to get it back to me!
anyway low and behold the car was driven back to me........ it didnt completely break down the oil light came on so he let it cool down and drove it home,
however it was indeed fooked!
obv had not been serviced in a long time,the paper element oil filter had broken down sending all the debris into the sump,blocking the oil gallories to the head
so it has now been scrapped
and just to clear a few things mentioned up!
yes im fully aware of the law and SOGA,hence why i was always going to just re fund to save any hassle,i did get some advice from someone else i know in the trade who has had dealings with a small claims over a simmerler situaion
on this occassion we think it could have gone either way! as he did only pay just above scrap value of the car,(a good £500-600 less than what it would have sold for on a pitch) he was fully aware of what was needed,and was recommended on the advert and when he came to view not to drive it away,it had no tax for a start and i dont see how he could have got any insurance onit either as the reg was no displayed on ebay and he certainly didnt arrange any while with me
anyway from now on anything i get in p/x will either get broken for spares or anything that could be worth spending some time on il get it re mot'd and prep it like we would any other car for retail You could throw it through auction. Trade to trade is a whole different ball game
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dazco
3,329 posts
58 months
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Maz_uk said: This completely depends on what purpose the vehicle was sold to fulfil, when we sell a car that we have taken in part ex to the public it is listed and sold for spares or repair only and customer is advised to trailer the vehicle away, regardless of how well the vehicle drives its for spares or repairs! If the customer is not happy with those terms I'm more than happy to sell them a quality retail car serviced, MOT'd with a warranty for £3k-£15k!
How you deal with comebacks on this type of vehicle is entirely down to how you sell it, make sure the customer understands that this vehicle is not covered under SOGA and before all you pub solicitors questions how a car can not be covered - simply as the SOGA states that a vehicle of any reasonable value.
So a £500 banger is NOT a vehicle of reasonable value and it could be said to make an assumption that this vehicle is only £500 because there is a good chance that there is something wrong with this vehicle. You need to do some reading http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/advice/problems...
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Autosdirect
Original Poster
58 posts
15 months
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yea thats another option,however to be honest iv found even some of the lads i know in the trade are turning down p/xs offerd from main dealers etc these days
its mainly all uneconomical 2.0+ petrols no one wants etc or old diesels that cost a fortune to tax etc (although some of these (non C/R) still sell ok as veg oil contenders espechally the likes of the old 306 Dturbo etc)
its rarely anything worth putting any money in to be worth re selling lets put it that way iv even seen a lot of independants starting to keep hold of older cars witch are either deisel or small petrols,its all thats selling! hard times this year so far tbh
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KevinA4quattro
6,077 posts
149 months
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Could the sale of a saxo for spares be argued to be not a car, merely a collection of spare parts?
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daemon
8,742 posts
66 months
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dazco said: Maz_uk said: This completely depends on what purpose the vehicle was sold to fulfil, when we sell a car that we have taken in part ex to the public it is listed and sold for spares or repair only and customer is advised to trailer the vehicle away, regardless of how well the vehicle drives its for spares or repairs! If the customer is not happy with those terms I'm more than happy to sell them a quality retail car serviced, MOT'd with a warranty for £3k-£15k!
How you deal with comebacks on this type of vehicle is entirely down to how you sell it, make sure the customer understands that this vehicle is not covered under SOGA and before all you pub solicitors questions how a car can not be covered - simply as the SOGA states that a vehicle of any reasonable value.
So a £500 banger is NOT a vehicle of reasonable value and it could be said to make an assumption that this vehicle is only £500 because there is a good chance that there is something wrong with this vehicle. You need to do some reading http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/advice/problems... Personally i think Maz is bang on the money - if the car is sold to the customer as needing a lot of work and therefore spares and repairs how and why would the sale of goods act apply? If its a £500 car and i am retailing it - for whatever reason - then i make sure the customer knows up front that they are buying a car near its end of life and that they understand that. If i think a prospective customer has an expectation that cannot be met then i simply wont sell them the car.
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dazco
3,329 posts
58 months
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daemon said: Personally i think Maz is bang on the money - if the car is sold to the customer as needing a lot of work and therefore spares and repairs how and why would the sale of goods act apply? It's the law. It does sound wrong but those are the facts. You cannot write the sale of goods act out of a contract.
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daemon
8,742 posts
66 months
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Autosdirect said: yea thats another option,however to be honest iv found even some of the lads i know in the trade are turning down p/xs offerd from main dealers etc these days
its mainly all uneconomical 2.0+ petrols no one wants etc or old diesels that cost a fortune to tax etc (although some of these (non C/R) still sell ok as veg oil contenders espechally the likes of the old 306 Dturbo etc)
its rarely anything worth putting any money in to be worth re selling lets put it that way iv even seen a lot of independants starting to keep hold of older cars witch are either deisel or small petrols,its all thats selling! hard times this year so far tbh The one thing i would say about the 'odd ball' stuff is that if someone is looking for that particular car there will be very few people otherwise selling them. I've sold a couple of S Type 3.0 litre petrol Jags this month, a 2.8 CRD Grand Voyager a 2.2 litre Petrol Vectra saloon, etc, etc and made decent profit on them all. Granted the customers are fewer but each have sold to the first guy out. I guess the trick is not to have too much of it. I find small engined petrol cars have very little margin left in them because customers generally know they're worth money, and traders will give over the odds for them. Also, older diesels can give horrendous problems so i tend to avoid those too - not much point in making £1,000 only to see that evaporate in warranty claims (as has happened to me several times this year)
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daemon
8,742 posts
66 months
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dazco said: daemon said: Personally i think Maz is bang on the money - if the car is sold to the customer as needing a lot of work and therefore spares and repairs how and why would the sale of goods act apply? It's the law. It does sound wrong but those are the facts. You cannot write the sale of goods act out of a contract. Yes you can - by selling as 'spares or repair', or by listing the faults the car has currently and that it is up to the buyer to resolve. Now you can really only do the 'spares or repair' scenario up to £1,000 but it is very viable to do so. If i present a £500 car as being 'all good' and in tip top condition, then yes the buyer has the reasonable right to expect it to be as described, however if i describe the car as having various faults and therefore being sold for spares or repair, then the SOGA will not apply. Also, if a tip top car is worth £1500, and i am selling one 'spares or repair' for £500 then it is reasonable to expect it to need a lot of work - that also is taken into account. Its about managing the customers expectations - if i dont think the customer 'gets it' then i find it easier not to sell the car to them
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dazco
3,329 posts
58 months
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daemon said: Yes you can - by selling as 'spares or repair', or by listing the faults the car has currently and that it is up to the buyer to resolve. Now you can really only do the 'spares or repair' scenario up to £1,000 but it is very viable to do so.
If i present a £500 car as being 'all good' and in tip top condition, then yes the buyer has the reasonable right to expect it to be as described, however if i describe the car as having various faults and therefore being sold for spares or repair, then the SOGA will not apply.
Also, if a tip top car is worth £1500, and i am selling one 'spares or repair' for £500 then it is reasonable to expect it to need a lot of work - that also is taken into account.
Its about managing the customers expectations - if i dont think the customer 'gets it' then i find it easier not to sell the car to them
Well I have shown you links where it says it is not possible to do this, show me where it says it is. You are simply making your own rules up based on common sense. There are SOME extreme ways to sell a car as unroadworthy and you must keep hold of the MOT and the Tax, you must write 'unroadworthy' on the receipt and you must prevent the buyer from driving the car. Apart from this it is ILLEGAL to sell an unroadworthy car, no matter what it says on the MOT, and that also applies to private sales. Allthis stuff is out there, this is how I am learning it, I do not now how you can still be argueing the point
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daemon
8,742 posts
66 months
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dazco said: daemon said: Yes you can - by selling as 'spares or repair', or by listing the faults the car has currently and that it is up to the buyer to resolve. Now you can really only do the 'spares or repair' scenario up to £1,000 but it is very viable to do so.
If i present a £500 car as being 'all good' and in tip top condition, then yes the buyer has the reasonable right to expect it to be as described, however if i describe the car as having various faults and therefore being sold for spares or repair, then the SOGA will not apply.
Also, if a tip top car is worth £1500, and i am selling one 'spares or repair' for £500 then it is reasonable to expect it to need a lot of work - that also is taken into account.
Its about managing the customers expectations - if i dont think the customer 'gets it' then i find it easier not to sell the car to them
Well I have shown you links where it says it is not possible to do this, show me where it says it is. You are simply making your own rules up based on common sense. There are SOME extreme ways to sell a car as unroadworthy and you must keep hold of the MOT and the Tax, you must write 'unroadworthy' on the receipt and you must prevent the buyer from driving the car. Apart from this it is ILLEGAL to sell an unroadworthy car, no matter what it says on the MOT, and that also applies to private sales. Allthis stuff is out there, this is how I am learning it, I do not now how you can still be argueing the point You're getting confused - SOGA protects you against buying a car that is not fit for purpose. If you are told the car is for spares or repairs only, and you sign an invoice saying you are buying it for spares or repairs only, then it is fit for the purpose for which it was bought - end of.
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daemon
8,742 posts
66 months
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FELIX_5 said: Wether you like it or not, and regardless of what he signs, you are responsible for that car for 6 months due to the sale of goods act. No - this is wholly wrong. You are responsible for FAULTS that could have been present at the time of sale for UP TO six months. For example, if you buy a 15 year old car with 120K miles and the clutch goes after three months, then can that be seen as wear and tear and not a fault? of course it is, therefore the dealer is not liable.
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daemon
8,742 posts
66 months
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From the Citizens Advice website
"Buying from a dealer - what the law says If you bought the car from a dealer, the law says the car must:
match its description. This means it must be as described by the seller. This includes any written description in an advertisement or catalogue; and be of satisfactory quality. This means the car must be in reasonable condition, considering its age and make, its past history and the price paid. It must be fit for its purpose (for example, if you request a vehicle which is capable of towing a large caravan, it must be capable of doing the job). It must also be roadworthy. (It is a criminal offence to sell an unroadworthy car). A car is not roadworthy if its brakes, tyres, steering, or construction make it unfit for the road. Even if the car has an MOT certificate, this doesn't necessarily mean that it is roadworthy.
you will not have these rights if the dealer pointed out the full extent of any fault before you bought the car;
or
you examined the car and should have noticed the fault. This mainly applies to cosmetic defects if examined by a lay person. The dealer would not be able to evade responsibility for mechanical defects if they were not apparent on your examination.
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dazco
3,329 posts
58 months
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daemon said: You're getting confused - SOGA protects you against buying a car that is not fit for purpose. If you are told the car is for spares or repairs only, and you sign an invoice saying you are buying it for spares or repairs only, then it is fit for the purpose for which it was bought - end of.
No, you are wrong. You cannot excuse yourself from legislation.
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daemon
8,742 posts
66 months
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dazco said: daemon said: You're getting confused - SOGA protects you against buying a car that is not fit for purpose. If you are told the car is for spares or repairs only, and you sign an invoice saying you are buying it for spares or repairs only, then it is fit for the purpose for which it was bought - end of.
No, you are wrong. You cannot excuse yourself from legislation. ok, i will quote you DIRECTLY from the sale of goods act. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54Section 48A - rights of consumers (1)This section applies if— (a)the buyer deals as consumer or, in Scotland, there is a consumer contract in which the buyer is a consumer, and (b)the goods do not conform to the contract of sale at the time of delivery. (that is to say, the rights of consumers that this section refers to applies if the goods do not conform to the contract of sale) - so basically the car must be fit for purpose and as described as per the contract of sale(2)If this section applies, the buyer has the right— (a)under and in accordance with section 48B below, to require the seller to repair or replace the goods, or (b)under and in accordance with section 48C below— (i)to require the seller to reduce the purchase price of the goods to the buyer by an appropriate amount, or (ii)to rescind the contract with regard to the goods in question. (basically if a fault develops the buyer has the right to repair, replace or refund)(3)For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above goods which do not conform to the contract of sale at any time within the period of six months starting with the date on which the goods were delivered to the buyer must be taken not to have so conformed at that date. (if a fault occurs within six months, its assumed that it was there at the time of sale) (4)Subsection (3) above does not apply if— (a)it is established that the goods did so conform at that date; (b)its application is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity. The rights under the SOGA do NOT apply if it is proven that the fault was not present at the time of sale OR the SOGA is not compatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity (if a dealer can prove the fault was not there at the time of sale, then hes not liable, ALSO and HERES THE BIT YOUR MISSING - the nature of the goods in the case of a car sold for spares or repairs is NOT compatible with the SOGA, therefore the SOGA doesnt not apply.
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daemon
8,742 posts
66 months
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dazco said: daemon said: You're getting confused - SOGA protects you against buying a car that is not fit for purpose. If you are told the car is for spares or repairs only, and you sign an invoice saying you are buying it for spares or repairs only, then it is fit for the purpose for which it was bought - end of.
No, you are wrong. You cannot excuse yourself from legislation. What you are saying is quite ludicrous. You're basically saying as a trader if i sell this....  for 'spares or repair', then a customer still has all his rights under the SOGA? So he could come back to me next day and say the headlights arent working?
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dazco
3,329 posts
58 months
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daemon said: What you are saying is quite ludicrous. You're basically saying as a trader if i sell this.... for 'spares or repair', then a customer still has all his rights under the SOGA? So he could come back to me next day and say the headlights arent working? You cannot sell that . It is against the law
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markmullen
12,395 posts
103 months
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dazco said: You cannot sell that . It is against the law  Always good to see an expert in action.
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bmthnick1981
2,794 posts
85 months
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dazco said: You cannot sell that . It is against the law Errrr, what?
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