Bluebird K7 Latest
Discussion
Fully acknowledge that these threads don’t last very long..
And I understand why, so apologies to mods in advance if it’s going to head the same way again.
I wonder what’s gone on here? I’ve been following this story for a very long time.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/lake-distric...
And I understand why, so apologies to mods in advance if it’s going to head the same way again.
I wonder what’s gone on here? I’ve been following this story for a very long time.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/lake-distric...
Gentleman,
To be totally honest, I’m not exactly sure where I sit with this whole saga. An emotive one for myself.
I live very close to Coniston, I vividly remember being taken to the water as a very young boy and my father explaining to me about a very special person who had tried to break the WWSR and died in the process.
It didn’t mean a lot at the time, but as time moved on it did - I was fascinated.
A few days before my old man died (suddenly) he gave me an autograph book he’d had since, being a young man himself. Dad and grandad used to go up and spectate and grabbed the opportunity.
It only has two pages of signatures: DC, Leo and a few others from the team at the time. It’s my most valued possession.
My house has a number of framed Arthur Benjamin’s prints of DC in K7 at Coniston.
Such a charismatic and patriotic man DC, and incredibly courageous - you don’t see many like him anymore unfortunately. To me DC was a different calibre altogether.
And then the boat was recovered, a difficult one to digest from a moral perspective.
I remember the words of the salvage leader at the time talking on a documentary, I think talking to Gina. ‘ Technology will advance and someone else will find it’ this was over 20 years ago. Technology has leapt immeasurably- and e bay!
At this point I can’t resist being critical that both parties didn’t ensure some form of realistic and binding contracts going forwards - it was extremely woolly from what I’ve read and watched from the onset. I can appreciate that from both sides of the argument .
I can totally appreciate that the salvager has invested his heart and soul into this project, and a huge personal expense .
In my own honest opinion / emotion: I could feel the hairs prick up on the back of my neck when I saw Bluebird running again on Loch Faad. Admittedly, it was a bit harum scarem at times.
But imagine you were the guy that had done all that work? Recovered the Skippers body.Twenty years of restoration ?l ( after the salvage) Just to see it running again, an absolutely iconic piece of engineering ,that the most famous UK Record Breaker ever last sat in.
I know from what I have read, over the the years many years. From what has been posted on on here: ‘ it should have been left on the bottom’.
It would have been stripped of bits and flogged on eBay to the highest bidder. No recognition to the captain .
And it would.
Sacrilege
I really hope both parties have come to a satisfactory compromise.
Gents, what do reckon?
To be totally honest, I’m not exactly sure where I sit with this whole saga. An emotive one for myself.
I live very close to Coniston, I vividly remember being taken to the water as a very young boy and my father explaining to me about a very special person who had tried to break the WWSR and died in the process.
It didn’t mean a lot at the time, but as time moved on it did - I was fascinated.
A few days before my old man died (suddenly) he gave me an autograph book he’d had since, being a young man himself. Dad and grandad used to go up and spectate and grabbed the opportunity.
It only has two pages of signatures: DC, Leo and a few others from the team at the time. It’s my most valued possession.
My house has a number of framed Arthur Benjamin’s prints of DC in K7 at Coniston.
Such a charismatic and patriotic man DC, and incredibly courageous - you don’t see many like him anymore unfortunately. To me DC was a different calibre altogether.
And then the boat was recovered, a difficult one to digest from a moral perspective.
I remember the words of the salvage leader at the time talking on a documentary, I think talking to Gina. ‘ Technology will advance and someone else will find it’ this was over 20 years ago. Technology has leapt immeasurably- and e bay!
At this point I can’t resist being critical that both parties didn’t ensure some form of realistic and binding contracts going forwards - it was extremely woolly from what I’ve read and watched from the onset. I can appreciate that from both sides of the argument .
I can totally appreciate that the salvager has invested his heart and soul into this project, and a huge personal expense .
In my own honest opinion / emotion: I could feel the hairs prick up on the back of my neck when I saw Bluebird running again on Loch Faad. Admittedly, it was a bit harum scarem at times.
But imagine you were the guy that had done all that work? Recovered the Skippers body.Twenty years of restoration ?l ( after the salvage) Just to see it running again, an absolutely iconic piece of engineering ,that the most famous UK Record Breaker ever last sat in.
I know from what I have read, over the the years many years. From what has been posted on on here: ‘ it should have been left on the bottom’.
It would have been stripped of bits and flogged on eBay to the highest bidder. No recognition to the captain .
And it would.
Sacrilege
I really hope both parties have come to a satisfactory compromise.
Gents, what do reckon?
Gents,
It’s just bloody sad isn’t it.
What a mess?
I’ve had my heroes in F1 - too bloody many.
But DC will never be replaced.
An absolute legends accomplishment being brought into this is.
I’d love to see Bluebird charging down Coniston at full chat. But somehow, I don’t want to. That was the end of the affair DC smashed over 300 on his first run.
He was only going to go faster ( in on his own head) it should have been left at that..
Only he knew. He had the throttle wide open when he passed the measured marker, and he kept commenting to the end.
A very brave man.
It’s just bloody sad isn’t it.
What a mess?
I’ve had my heroes in F1 - too bloody many.
But DC will never be replaced.
An absolute legends accomplishment being brought into this is.
I’d love to see Bluebird charging down Coniston at full chat. But somehow, I don’t want to. That was the end of the affair DC smashed over 300 on his first run.
He was only going to go faster ( in on his own head) it should have been left at that..
Only he knew. He had the throttle wide open when he passed the measured marker, and he kept commenting to the end.
A very brave man.
Hello again Gents,
Some interesting comments been made already, I hope it stays that way. I really hope this doesn’t descend Into another bashing exercise towards individuals.
In response to some of the posts relating to how relevant WSR and LSR are in this modern age? It does make you wonder? I even think myself DC was getting a bit, how can I say it? Out of fashion perhaps - for the time.
And I completely agree with Jazoli.
Considering any if? Future runs for Bluebird on Coniston is probably not viable now - from a spectator perspective. And logistical for anyone wanting to coordinate.
Anyone who has driven on the roads around Coniston will know. The west side is very enjoyable drive, but tight in a lot of places. The east side is a nightmare.
Throw a few thousand? Spectators into the mix and it would be absolute bedlam.
My old man himself said, it was gridlock back in the sixties during record attempts to watch as spectator.
And there was nowhere near the amounts of car owners back then compared with present times.
Anyone who wants to read more about Donald, I can thoroughly recommend David Tremayne’s book - Donald Campbell The Man Behind The Mask.
A truly excellent read, it’s right up there with my favourite (classic) motorsport book: James Hunt by Gerald Donaldson.
Another good one is: With Campbell at Coniston by Arthur Knowles.
Some interesting comments been made already, I hope it stays that way. I really hope this doesn’t descend Into another bashing exercise towards individuals.
In response to some of the posts relating to how relevant WSR and LSR are in this modern age? It does make you wonder? I even think myself DC was getting a bit, how can I say it? Out of fashion perhaps - for the time.
And I completely agree with Jazoli.
Considering any if? Future runs for Bluebird on Coniston is probably not viable now - from a spectator perspective. And logistical for anyone wanting to coordinate.
Anyone who has driven on the roads around Coniston will know. The west side is very enjoyable drive, but tight in a lot of places. The east side is a nightmare.
Throw a few thousand? Spectators into the mix and it would be absolute bedlam.
My old man himself said, it was gridlock back in the sixties during record attempts to watch as spectator.
And there was nowhere near the amounts of car owners back then compared with present times.
Anyone who wants to read more about Donald, I can thoroughly recommend David Tremayne’s book - Donald Campbell The Man Behind The Mask.
A truly excellent read, it’s right up there with my favourite (classic) motorsport book: James Hunt by Gerald Donaldson.
Another good one is: With Campbell at Coniston by Arthur Knowles.
Equus said:
Jim H said:
Considering any if? Future runs for Bluebird on Coniston is probably not viable now - from a spectator perspective. And logistical for anyone wanting to coordinate.
Anyone who has driven on the roads around Coniston will know. The west side is very enjoyable drive, but tight in a lot of places. The east side is a nightmare.
Throw a few thousand? Spectators into the mix and it would be absolute bedlam.
I was there for Campbell's funeral and the village was well beyond gridlocked, even 'just' for the funeral, and in paticularly grim Lake District weather (cold, raining all day). ISTR queuing in traffic for a good couple of hours or more, with tempers getting frayed over parking.Anyone who has driven on the roads around Coniston will know. The west side is very enjoyable drive, but tight in a lot of places. The east side is a nightmare.
Throw a few thousand? Spectators into the mix and it would be absolute bedlam.
Try it with for something with as much popular appeal as actually seeing the boat run - and which necessarily must take place in fine conditions - and you'd probably gridlock the whole of the Lake District for the day!
And the weather was absolutely foul, I was going to take the day off work and have a run up - but thought against knowing what it would be probably like.
And if I remember correctly the day of the funeral was a day after 9/11.
When most of the world was more focused on horrific events unfolding on their TV screens.
I’m a big believer in the saying: ‘ never judge a man until you’ve spent a day walking in his shoes’
A lot of stuff has been mentioned about the ‘ salvager’ and his jester hat.
He’s a big Marillion fan. The lyrics to one of their songs set him in motion. And off he went…
The Jester is a Marillion motive. I know.I’m a big Marillion fan myself- unfortunately!
Ultimately, this guy set out on his own accord , on his own mission.
To ultimately recover a legend that had been lost.
I doubt he had any idea the ramifications of his own actions what he did over 20 years ago - and where it would lead to. Time ultimately moves on, and peoples perspective changes.
But he did it.
I’m sure, his intentions were and are absolutely true.
Guys, don’t kick the the fella.
It’s a helluva emotive subject .
At least he got off his backside and did something about it.
A bit like DC.
A lot of stuff has been mentioned about the ‘ salvager’ and his jester hat.
He’s a big Marillion fan. The lyrics to one of their songs set him in motion. And off he went…
The Jester is a Marillion motive. I know.I’m a big Marillion fan myself- unfortunately!
Ultimately, this guy set out on his own accord , on his own mission.
To ultimately recover a legend that had been lost.
I doubt he had any idea the ramifications of his own actions what he did over 20 years ago - and where it would lead to. Time ultimately moves on, and peoples perspective changes.
But he did it.
I’m sure, his intentions were and are absolutely true.
Guys, don’t kick the the fella.
It’s a helluva emotive subject .
At least he got off his backside and did something about it.
A bit like DC.
One last thought on this.
It’s not the ordinary man who listens to a song, dives to the bottom of a lake, recovers a legend.
Then spends a huge amount of time and personal expense over 20 years.
Who else would do that?
I get that someone like this can come across abrupt, rude, obstinate?
Sometimes it takes that, to achieve one’s goals.
I really don’t think he should be vilified .
Night Fellas.
It’s not the ordinary man who listens to a song, dives to the bottom of a lake, recovers a legend.
Then spends a huge amount of time and personal expense over 20 years.
Who else would do that?
I get that someone like this can come across abrupt, rude, obstinate?
Sometimes it takes that, to achieve one’s goals.
I really don’t think he should be vilified .
Night Fellas.
ecsrobin said:
Jim H said:
I’m a big believer in the saying: ‘ never judge a man until you’ve spent a day walking in his shoes’
A lot of stuff has been mentioned about the ‘ salvager’ and his jester hat.
He’s a big Marillion fan. The lyrics to one of their songs set him in motion. And off he went…
The Jester is a Marillion motive. I know.I’m a big Marillion fan myself- unfortunately!
Ultimately, this guy set out on his own accord , on his own mission.
To ultimately recover a legend that had been lost.
I doubt he had any idea the ramifications of his own actions what he did over 20 years ago - and where it would lead to. Time ultimately moves on, and peoples perspective changes.
But he did it.
I’m sure, his intentions were and are absolutely true.
Guys, don’t kick the the fella.
It’s a helluva emotive subject .
At least he got off his backside and did something about it.
A bit like DC.
I mean you created this thread knowing exactly the direction it would go……..A lot of stuff has been mentioned about the ‘ salvager’ and his jester hat.
He’s a big Marillion fan. The lyrics to one of their songs set him in motion. And off he went…
The Jester is a Marillion motive. I know.I’m a big Marillion fan myself- unfortunately!
Ultimately, this guy set out on his own accord , on his own mission.
To ultimately recover a legend that had been lost.
I doubt he had any idea the ramifications of his own actions what he did over 20 years ago - and where it would lead to. Time ultimately moves on, and peoples perspective changes.
But he did it.
I’m sure, his intentions were and are absolutely true.
Guys, don’t kick the the fella.
It’s a helluva emotive subject .
At least he got off his backside and did something about it.
A bit like DC.
Also why do you write all your posts like you’re sending someone a letter?
I’m sure there will be some folk there to disagree with.
Night night.
Equus said:
PinkTornado said:
99hjhm said:
Did it not plane much better due to the new planing wedges been optimised for working at much slower speed? Not disagreeing with what you are saying with the weight or CoG.
Changing the planing wedge angles was once mooted on his site but ultimately didn't happen.If it wasn't for the fact that the photos show a distinct difference in trim (anyone with experience of boats will tell you from gut feeling alone that this is more than can be attributed to an 80 gallon fuel load and the pilot), I'd be tempted to attribute the difference wholly to the fact that they were running in much rougher water than the glass-calms that Campbell used to depend on for record attempts. Rougher water helps 'unstick' hydroplanes (and was undoubtedly a factor at Loch Fad, but not enough to explain the difference on its own, I think).
Bluebird was always pretty marginal at getting up onto the plane. Apart from having to relocate the front spar because it originally interfered with her bow wave at lower speeds, they had to add a set of 'strakes' or fins under the nose (along with angles on the internal edge of the sponsons) to help lift her. This is her original form, without the strakes:
And this shows them fitted:
In addition to which, it was always a balancing act between adding thrust gradually enough to make her plane, whilst not so fast that the nose-down moment cause by the thrust line being above the centre of hydrodynamic drag made her 'plough' or 'submarine'.
This was to a large extent deliberate: it was well known, even back when she was designed, that the big risk with conventional (2 points fo'ard) 3-pointers at speed was front-end lift. It was also the reason behind the separate sponsons. Better to have to nanny the boat onto the plane, than to erode the safety margin at high speed. As it turned out, that safety margin proved insufficient after all (albeit at a speed 70mph faster than her original design speed).
They knew that the reverse three-pointer arrangement used by Cobb's Crusader was aerodynamically more stable, but K7's design was partly a hangover from the original R37-engined, prop-driven design (the so-called 'C-boat', which had been designed to take the Harmsworth Trophy, not the WWSR), and partly paranoia over the loadings on a single forward planing shoe, following Cobb's accident.
Thank you so much for sharing, and your knowledge about K7 is a joy to read.
I do apologise to those that I upset yesterday, unreservedly.
Yes, I started the thread. Did I know where it was going, I haven’t got a crystal ball unfortunately .
I was just trying to give a balanced point of view - probably made a bit of a mess of it to be honest.
But I always think there are two sides to every disagreement.
This is a photo that hangs in my house. It’s a bit wrinkled and needs properly framing.
I first saw it when I was playing pool one night decades ago in a hotel. Time moved on and would you believe it, a friend of mine bought the hotel.
I asked him one day: “any chance I can can have that photo of DC on the water?” The previous owner (of the hotel) claimed he knew nothing about it. But my mate tracked it down
I think it’s actually a real classic.
It’s on the inlay of David Tremayne’s book.
![](https://thumbsnap.com/t/BjvbbJbu.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/MZcFW7qv" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/MZcFW7qv.jpg)
lufbramatt said:
I'm not sure what the fascination of seeing it run on Coniston is.
If Williams had decided to restore Senna's FW16 and do demo laps on Imola I'm pretty sure everyone would say that's not OK.
That’s a good point and I must admit I’d strangely not considered it at all.If Williams had decided to restore Senna's FW16 and do demo laps on Imola I'm pretty sure everyone would say that's not OK.
The thing is with Coniston is there are hardly any parking places, and as I’ve said before, the roads around it are extremely tight and winding. And that’s after you’ve got there from any main road network.
Mind you? I wonder what the interest would be now? It’s going back a while, but the odd examples of footage I remember from the running up at Bute. I didn’t exactly notice it being a crowded event?
But, could be corrected on that?
Hello again Equus,
You obviously have a lot of knowledge on this subject. I’d be interested if you have any views or opinions on the accident itself?
It’s always baffled me why DC didn’t refuel on his return run. I guess it has also baffled a few others down the years.
My own opinion is, he’d entered into a sort of ‘bloody mindedness’ - to get the record done.
I think there were also other things playing on his mind. A few snipes from the media, the notoriously awful Cumbrian weather etc. I think he’d also spent a lot of Christmas on his own when a most of the team had departed ( hence the Christmas Day run) Launched with the aid of who he could round up on the day.
A fair degree has been put into print over the years over his state of mind in the days / hours leading up to the catastrophe. Particularly that game of cards the night before.
Over the years it’s been analysed, the lack of jet thrust from Bluebird as it left the surface. Do you think the lack of refuelling affected the boats trim (over the still present wash? Could also have lead to the engine flaming out?
I can only rely on the books and articles I’ve read over the last few decades. It would be interesting to know other’s thoughts on the matter.
You obviously have a lot of knowledge on this subject. I’d be interested if you have any views or opinions on the accident itself?
It’s always baffled me why DC didn’t refuel on his return run. I guess it has also baffled a few others down the years.
My own opinion is, he’d entered into a sort of ‘bloody mindedness’ - to get the record done.
I think there were also other things playing on his mind. A few snipes from the media, the notoriously awful Cumbrian weather etc. I think he’d also spent a lot of Christmas on his own when a most of the team had departed ( hence the Christmas Day run) Launched with the aid of who he could round up on the day.
A fair degree has been put into print over the years over his state of mind in the days / hours leading up to the catastrophe. Particularly that game of cards the night before.
Over the years it’s been analysed, the lack of jet thrust from Bluebird as it left the surface. Do you think the lack of refuelling affected the boats trim (over the still present wash? Could also have lead to the engine flaming out?
I can only rely on the books and articles I’ve read over the last few decades. It would be interesting to know other’s thoughts on the matter.
Equus,
Thank you very much, just exactly what I was hoping for.
I’ve often wondered also why the Folland Gnat fin was fitted, it’s not really covered in the books that I have - only that it was fitted.
My extremely limited knowledge of aero, I can consider that it certainly would have had some effect on longitudinal stability. However, one wonders how much actual consideration (overall) it’s inclusion had at the time on the overall dynamics of the boat.
Also, I’ve read a few articles regarding the duck strike on the spar, again overall perhaps another small contribution to the overall design being operated well above it’s safe envelope.
Many thanks again for your insightful knowledge.
Thank you very much, just exactly what I was hoping for.
I’ve often wondered also why the Folland Gnat fin was fitted, it’s not really covered in the books that I have - only that it was fitted.
My extremely limited knowledge of aero, I can consider that it certainly would have had some effect on longitudinal stability. However, one wonders how much actual consideration (overall) it’s inclusion had at the time on the overall dynamics of the boat.
Also, I’ve read a few articles regarding the duck strike on the spar, again overall perhaps another small contribution to the overall design being operated well above it’s safe envelope.
Many thanks again for your insightful knowledge.
Equus said:
Jim H said:
I’ve often wondered also why the Folland Gnat fin was fitted, it’s not really covered in the books that I have - only that it was fitted.
My extremely limited knowledge of aero, I can consider that it certainly would have had some effect on longitudinal stability. However, one wonders how much actual consideration (overall) it’s inclusion had at the time on the overall dynamics of the boat.
It does seem questionable and, like you, I've yet to come across a good explanation.... there are references to K7 having a slight tendency for snaking at times, but it doesn't seem to have been a pronounced issue.My extremely limited knowledge of aero, I can consider that it certainly would have had some effect on longitudinal stability. However, one wonders how much actual consideration (overall) it’s inclusion had at the time on the overall dynamics of the boat.
One wonders (speculating) whether it might have been something to do with Campbell's crash in CN7, which definitely was caused by a lack of yaw stability and which had been corrected on the rebuilt version by fitting a large tailfin. Perhaps Campbell (who with due respect was only semi-educated on technical matters) might have insisted upon the addition to K7, for that reason?
I’m sure I read that somewhere.
However, I do agree, it’s installation could have been as a result of the CN7 crash.
Morning again Gents,
Just another quick question which has puzzled me. When the runs were carried out at Bute, Bluebird ran without the K7 Infinity / Unlimited roundel markings on the sponsons. Was there any particular reasons for that?
After such a lengthy and involved restoration, I can’t believe it was an omission, or would have been that difficult to recreate?
Just another quick question which has puzzled me. When the runs were carried out at Bute, Bluebird ran without the K7 Infinity / Unlimited roundel markings on the sponsons. Was there any particular reasons for that?
After such a lengthy and involved restoration, I can’t believe it was an omission, or would have been that difficult to recreate?
That was quick.. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6p49xypgv2o
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