A vision for WRC

Author
Discussion

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
Too anoraky for my usual Sabotage Times haunt, I was going to post this on my sprodically-updated blog, but I'd only end up posting a link to it here, so I thought I'd cut out the middle man.

It's a bit long for a forum post, so I'm expecting a lot of TLDRs but I hope you likey:

I've found myself banging on about the WRC’s short-comings rather a lot recently – it’s in a bit of a sorry state at the moment (understatement of 2012?) and I do feel a bit guilty about kicking it while it’s down, but I truly believe the time has come for it to be put out of its misery.

Of course, I’m aware of the tv/promoter issues, but I think that’s an effect, not a cause. The real problem with the WRC is with the cars.

I get quite a bit of stick for objecting to the machinery, particularly on PistonHeads, and mostly I get abused (probably by the youngsters) for just being an old bar steward who wants Group B cars back. I am, and I sort of do, but that’s silly, and it's never what I’m getting at.

What I am getting at is that the WRC has completely lost sight of what rallying was, and should be about, which is welding a roll cage in to a road car, chucking some gravel tyres and a sump guard on it and firing it down a forest road with a total nutter behind the wheel. Yes, the ‘homologation era' brought us some flipping fantastic rally and, more importantly, road cars, but the sad fact is that when the manufacturers realised that rather than rallying their road cars they should road their rally cars, we saw the beginning of the problems that have brought the championship to its knees. Clearly terrified of losing manufacturers like Ford when building rally cars for the road started to get very expensive, the FIA apparently chose to forget the history and turn the WRC in to a prototype series. And so began the slow decline.

I know, I know, this is a massive over-simplification, but I think my point stands: the cars have no relevance to anything, but the manufacturers like to pretend they do (annoying; we're not idiots) and, most importantly of all, the griptongue outower ratio is all out of whack. But, that’s enough problems; it’s time for a solution.

At the moment there is not a single manufacturer that builds a car that it can go to the WRC with. That seems weird as I write it down. You want in to world rallying? You’ve pretty much got to build a custom, from-the-ground-up racing machine. No matter how ‘cheap’ the FIA makes WRC, that’s an enormous barrier to entry and a pointless exercise for any manufacturer (here it comes) 'in the current climate'.

There is a way out of the doldrums though. The recently-launched-on-the-quiet Subaru BRZ and Toyota GT86 and the slew of similar rear-wheel-drive coupes on the market and hitting motor shows are the perfect basis for a renewed and re-invigorated World Rally Championship (if you’re not already nodding your head in agreement, go to YouTube and type in ‘Mark 2 Escort, Kris Meeke’ and you’ll get the idea). Joining them would be the Mazda MX5 (hurrah!) and, providing that Audi was willing to build a few hundred rear-wheel drive versions of its TT, we could see one of the most iconic rallying manufacturers back in the WRC. Alfa Romeo 4C, you say? Why not?

Now, I know this might seem a bit pie in the sky, but give it some thought and it makes perfect sense. Right now Subaru, Toyota, Hyundai, Alfa Romeo, BMW, Mazda, Lotus and (with a bit of artistic licence) Audi all build a road car that could compete in this new World Rally Championship with the simple addition of some lightness, a roll cage and the aforementioned sump guard, gravel tyres and nutter behind the wheel.

So there you have it. A World Rally Championship based on road cars being put miles outside their comfort zone – a test of man and machine and a true spectacle, contested in cars that you and I can not only theoretically walk into a showroom and buy, but might actually be able to afford one day. Fancy that. Most importantly of all though – sideways!

The total mess the WRC is in at the moment is a chance for the FIA to bring the World Rally Championship back to basics. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to strip the series back and start again, I just hope they have the balls to take it.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
GravelBen said:
This is probably a big part of the problem I think, manufacturers don't want a 'lesser' class having faster cars than them even if they aren't eligible for the same championship.
And this is one of the things that really pisses me off about it. They won't let the cars 'actually' be fast, but won't slow them for the sake of entertainment.

I mean, who actually cares about outright stage times? Rallying has never been about being the fastest motorsport.

As for people 'having to throw away their cars' I don't think that's really a valid point - people have had to do that periodically anyway and you could make regulatory concesions to ease the transition for privateers.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
I like your thinking but got lost. Can you please summarise what you want in two sentences max?

Cheers.
Blimey, the internet really has killed attention spans, hasn't it? wink

Rear wheel drive cars. Cars that you can actually buy.

The first one is really to bring back some obvious 'movement' to the cars, rather than Mark 2 Escort nostalgia. 4WD is now so effective and complex (combined with incredible tyre technology) rallying doesn't look quite as hairy as it used to. Everything happens too quickly and the range of movement between 'fast' and 'crash' is far too fine.

The second is because I'm sick of watching a sport that was borne out of the idea of seeing how far you could push a road car being contested by custom built race machines, which is in itself a huge barrier to entry.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
Also, I'm not saying this is a 'solution' for rallying. I'm saying it's a solution for WRC, which I would say is not really rallying anymore.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
Everybody cares about overall stage times. What would be the point of spending all that money developing a RWD WRC car when an S2000 spec car would be far faster? Nobody would bother so AWD would have to be scrapped.
But the point is you wouldn't spend 'all that money' developing a RWD WRC, you would be rallying a modified road car (like someone else said) Group A style, but with RWD/if it's not RWD on the road get lost stipulated in the regs.

I know what you're saying - 'what's the point of LMP1 if the GT3 cars are faster?' - kind of thing right? I get that, but it's that sort of attitude that is stifling WRC.

Just look at MotoGP and Superbikes at the moment - I know they don't share a track, but bear with me - MotoGP is getting quite boring, Superbikes are INCREDIBLE at the moment, and that's reflected in their relative popularity (waning, waxing). A MotoGP bike would DESTROY a Superbike in every area, but it doesn't matter - all spectators care about is spectacle, I think. Especially in things like rallying.

EDLT said:
RWD cars wouldn't move around like Mk2 Escorts either, the stability has come from advances in tyre and suspension technology. Look at every other modern motorsport, we don't see RWD circuit racers sliding around like they used to.
Of course they wouldn't move around like Mk2 Escorts, but they'd be a lot more mobile than a current spec WRC car - especially on a loose surface. You also regulate tyre widths.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
I don't think that 4WD is a problem, per-se, but things that would make it more exciting would be if the cars were proper homolegation specials again.
People tend to get this bit of rallying mixed up.

This is a brief MASSIVELY simplified history of rallying cars:

People start rallying road cars

Manufacturers start rallying their road cars

Manufacturers realise that if they build a road car that's designed for rallying, they can win rallying

Building a road car for rallying gets expensive, so manufacturers start wavering on their commitment to rallying

FIA craps its pants and says 'oh just do whatever you want, forget about the road car bit'

The last thing we need back is homologation, what we need to have back is the idea of the WRC being a production car-based series. Honestly, the bit about rear-wheel drive is incidental really. A happy coming together of the fact that these cars would be perfect for a win on Sunday sell on Monday type approach, as they're all (I think) in the sub-£30k price bracket, they're RWD so might be a bit more exciting on stage and lots of manufacturers are building that sort of car at the moment.

4WD is only a problem because no one is really building 4WD 'rallyable' cars at the moment. It's the reason that the WRC is full of protptypes. They're stuck on this idea that a rally car should be a 4WD hatchback. And that's a mistake.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 8th February 12:43

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
Charlie Foxtrot said:
Seriously, look at what Pirelli did for F1. It can't be too difficult to do that to rallying too.
Quite.

Charlie Foxtrot said:
And I do also agree with the cars, when they stop being prototypes is when it starts to get interesting again.
Thanks. smile

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
If you throw out anything that isn't RWD then you'll throw out all three manufacturers currently in the sport. Great idea. There is no guarantee that BMW/Toyota/Mazda etc would be interested in stepping in.
Well obviously you would approach them before you threw the current regs in the bin!

And, sorry to be a pedant, but there are not three manufacturers in WRC, there's one: Citroen. The others are 'works supported', one of which is already BMW and even they're trying to back out. Probably because the car they're rallying has nothing whatsoever to do with the car they're trying to sell. The DTM car they'll be racing has more in common with an M3 than the WRC ryman has in common with the MINI road car.

EDLT said:
MotoGP got boring once they started trying to slow them down, which is essentially what you want to do with WRC.
No, MotoGP got boring when there started to be more grip than power.

EDLT said:
Regulating tyre widths won't make the cars move around more, more sliding = more tyre wear so driver will avoid it.
Not if it's faster they won't. Make the tyres harder, and make them narrower.

EDLT said:
My last point is everyone likes to avoid on PH: WRC is still popular in France, Scandinavia, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Argentina and getting more popular in the USA. Even in the "boring" times with the C4 vs Focus stages were cancelled because too many spectators turned up to watch. The reason it isn't popular in the UK is because we don't have any top class drivers competing.
I'm sorry, but while you're right that it is more popular in those countries you listed than the UK, it's nothing like as massive as it was. And if it's so popular, why aren't people falling over themselves to promote it, and put it on their TV station?

I mean, are you seriously suggesting that the WRC is just fine as it is? Are you saying that it's ok that it's not really rallying anymore?

Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 8th February 13:13

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
bigbadbikercats said:
Why the hang-up on RWD versus FWD? I can't speak for anybody else but I was quite happy watching Minis, Saabs (2-strokes, V4s, or Turbos - I'm not fussy!), Lancia Fulvias and the like taking on the RWD stuff :-)
Honestly, it was more that I love the idea of seeing the cars I mentioned in rally spec. And, yes, I do have a bit of a soft spot for sideways rally cars.

But, I'm REALLY glad you got the spirit of what I was trying to say!

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
And if they say they aren't interested, or if they copy BMW and decided they are not interested later on?
Then you're left with a series that is actually accessible to privateers.

EDLT said:
Yes, when they fitted smaller engines to slow the bikes down. They didn't increase the grip levels.
And the result of the attempt to slow them down was a relative increase in grip.

EDLT said:
That still won't make sliding faster, they'll just slow down even more so they've got traction coming out of the corner.
I don't think that's necessarily true. If it was, rally cars would never go/have gone sideways. They frequently did, and still do in historics.

EDLT said:
Prove it.
Very hard to get reliable figures on attendance, but I think looking at crowds on the coverage proves that it's not as huge as it once was.

Also, the number of cars available for WRC in 2012: three (MINI, Fiesta and C3)

2008: five (C4, Focus, Impreza, 307 hurl and SX4)

2004: six (Impreza, Xsara, Focus, Accent, Fabia, 307 hurl and Lancer)

2000: seven (Lancer, Impreza, Focus, Cordoba, 206, Octavia, Accent)

1990: 11 (Integrale, Celica, 323, Galant, 90, Kadett, Legacy, 200SX, M3, Golf, Sierra Cozzeh)

1980: Wikipedia starts to get a bit vague now, but Fiat, Datsun, Ford, Mercedes, Opel, Talbot, Toyota, Peugeot, Porsche, Lancia, Vauxhall, VW, Renault, Triumph, Mitsubishi and FSO (?!) all scored point.

Now, I know manufacturer involvement is not the be all and end all, but either the sport isn't as popular, or it's far too expensive. I suspect a combination of both.

EDLT said:
No, but until the company that owned North One went bust (North One was doing fine) WRC was getting better. The second half of last season and this season's Monte Carlo were very good. A solution that involves throwing everything away and starting over is stupid.
I'm not sure that it was to be honest and I don't think that throwing everything away and starting again is a bad thing. F1 did it in 2009 and it has been a huge success.

EDLT said:
You are being pedantic over who exactly owns the teams, manufacturer supported teams are nothing new.
I know, and I did say that. But manufacturer-supported teams are usually a supplement to, rather than a replacement for, full factory teams.

EDLT said:
You are just plane wrong if you think a DullTM car is more like a road car than the countryman. But again, rally cars that bare little resemblance to the road car is nothing new and not a symptom of the current low interest in rallying on this forum.
Are you sure about that?

The Countryman bears a vague resemblence to the road car, but in reality is a from-the-ground-up racing car.

The M3 DTM bears a vague resemblence to the road car, but in reality is a from-the-ground-up racing car.

Countryman WRC has a race specific engine, only related to the road car's engine (by coincidence) by capacity.

M3 DTM has a race specific engine, only related to the road car's engine (by coincidence) by configuration.

Countryman road car is front wheel drive, WRC is 4WD

M3 road car is rear wheel drive, M3 DTM is rear wheel drive.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 8th February 15:29

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
groomi said:
I'd be incredibly surprised if that is true. I doubt there is a single component carried over.
There's not a single component carried over on either I should think. At least the BMW is front engined, rear wheel drive.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
Jerry Can said:
lots of sensible stuff
Apart from the NASCAR bit, I'd accept basically everything you've said there if it became the new WRC.

I did call the thread A vision for WRC, not THE vision for WRC. wink

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
davepoth said:
Technically the same thing, but with homologation I guess we're talking about doing an RS200; building a specific rally weapon and then producing a couple of hundred roadgoing replicas to satisfy the regulations.
Yes. Although, Escort Cossie, Celica GT4, Impreza STi (certainly 22B) and Lancer Evo all fall within that category as well.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Wednesday 8th February 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
Which is bad, in your view because you want brand new cars being developed, right? Privateers aren't going to do that. BTCC cars are almost silhouettes now and still smaller teams are using old cars.
No, that's sort of the opposite of my view. The reasons I listed the cars I did is because they already exist. A privateer team in 'my WRC' doesn't have to go to M-Sport and say, here's 400,000 Euros, can I buy a WRC car, please? They can buy a GT86 from the showroom (like the £16k one on the homepage) and turn it into a 'WRC' machine themselves. Like, I dunno, what rallying used to be about! wink If WRC was like this now, Kris Meeke would be getting ready for Sweden at the moment.

EDLT said:
No. The grip level almost stayed the same while engine capacity was reduced, talking about "relative" increases is just moving the goal posts.
No it's not. More power than grip means this:



It doesn't matter if you've got 1,000bhp and foot wide cold slicks, or 150bhp and van tyres - you're sliding.

EDTL said:
Historics have very old fashioned suspension, but with modern tyres they actually slide around less than they used to. Modern RWD rally cars do not slide around like old Escorts did.
No, of course not, but still more than a 4WD WRC car, which is basically my whole point.

EDTL said:
The changes from the 2008 to 2009 F1 cars was tiny compared to what you are suggesting. It is more like throwing away everything they had and turning up in jumped up Formula Fords.
Yeah, ok, that's fair enough.


EDTL said:
I am sure. The Countryman WRC car has to use far more cosmetic parts than the DTM car, the driver is still positioned to one side not in the middle, it is available with 4WD and they aren't allowed the ridiculous aerodynamic body kits. The WRC car is even road legal.
Ok, I wasn't aware that the Countryman came in 4WD. But you have to think of it from a brand point of view. Putting an M3 next to a DTM M3 and saying 'look, motorsport. Mmmmm.' is probably far more relevant than doing the same thing with a Countryman. I imagine that's their thinking.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Thursday 9th February 2012
quotequote all
johnfelstead said:
22B wasnt a homologation special, it was the other way round with the 22B's design following the WRC cars basic profiles as a sales tool, all the panels are different on the 22B to the WRC car, it also has a 2.2 litre engine which wasnt allowed in rallying, 2.0 litre max at the time.
I stand corrected, I always thought Subaru used it to allow them to rally the wide body, but of course that makes no sense since the engine is a 2.2. I did know that, put never put the two together. D'oh.

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

217 months

Thursday 9th February 2012
quotequote all
ArnageWRC said:
Have 10-12 different events, anything from 1 -5 days, sprint/ endurance, day/night – each with it’s own character.
Yes. I felt that I'd probably start 'going on' a bit if I got in to the problems with the events themselves.

I would hope that if you could reduce the cost of a WRC car from 400,000 to more like less than 100,00 and, in turn, lower the costs of running and maintaining the cars, longer events would become more feasible.

ArnageWRC said:
Simple, powerful, loud cars with more power than grip...
Yes.

ArnageWRC said:
Get all interested Manufacturers round as table – and work out a future WRCar. It will likely be a Hot hatch 4WD – but who knows? What would happen if Lotus, Porsche, Toyota, Subaru, Nissan, etc all turned up wanting a RWD Sportscar formula?? Remember the Stratos, Alpine-Renault A110, Mazda RX7, etc
Absolutely right. I also think that Ford and Citroen should have limited involvement - they've got far too much vested interest in the sport remaining as it is and, if we're honest with ourselves, have't really done anything for it in recent years.