Vettel and traction control?
Discussion
http://www.f1today.net/en/news/minardi-suggests-tr...
Also, if it were true, just how easy is it to hide a traction control system on an F1 car?
article said:
Former F1 team owner and boss Gian Carlo Minardi has raised doubts about the legitimacy of Sebastian Vettel's dominance in Singapore last weekend. The 66-year-old, who sold his team before the 2001 season, was trackside at the Marina Bay circuit where Vettel commandingly won.
Minardi, whose Faenza based team was subsequently sold to Red Bull and became Toro Rosso, admits he has been troubled by Vettel's often multiple-second advantage over his rivals under the Singapore floodlights. "It's not my intention to devalue Sebastian Vettel, who always manages his Red Bull in the best way," he told his website. "I just want to tell what I personally saw and heard during the three day event," Minardi explained.
He said he is concerned that, while only just ahead of the likes of Lotus' Romain Grosjean and Mercedes' Nico Rosberg in the pre-race sessions, the reason for Vettel's subsequent dominance at key moments on Sunday is "not clear". Referring to the stretch leading into the first chicane, Minardi said Vettel was able to negotiate it "without making any corrections, unlike all his rivals and also his teammate" Mark Webber.
"His laptime was also remarkable in T3, which is the track's sector with the highest concentration of corners," he added. "On the same stretch, Sebastian was able to speed up 50 metres before any other driver, Webber included." But the handling of the Red Bull was not the only thing troubling Minardi. "The thing that surprised me the most was the engine's sound," he said.
"It sounded like none of the other Renault engines on track, including Mark's. It sounded similar to the engines in past seasons when traction control went into action. Furthermore, that sound was only heard when Vettel chalked up his excellent performances," added Minardi. "For example, after the safety car went in. In those moments it was more powerful (sounding) than any other engines -- Renault and the other brands. I would like to have some answers," he continued. "I don't want to blame anyone, I just want to get to the bottom of it." (GMM)
What's everyone's thoughts on this? Some substance behind it or just people refusing to believe Vettel is as quick as he is?Minardi, whose Faenza based team was subsequently sold to Red Bull and became Toro Rosso, admits he has been troubled by Vettel's often multiple-second advantage over his rivals under the Singapore floodlights. "It's not my intention to devalue Sebastian Vettel, who always manages his Red Bull in the best way," he told his website. "I just want to tell what I personally saw and heard during the three day event," Minardi explained.
He said he is concerned that, while only just ahead of the likes of Lotus' Romain Grosjean and Mercedes' Nico Rosberg in the pre-race sessions, the reason for Vettel's subsequent dominance at key moments on Sunday is "not clear". Referring to the stretch leading into the first chicane, Minardi said Vettel was able to negotiate it "without making any corrections, unlike all his rivals and also his teammate" Mark Webber.
"His laptime was also remarkable in T3, which is the track's sector with the highest concentration of corners," he added. "On the same stretch, Sebastian was able to speed up 50 metres before any other driver, Webber included." But the handling of the Red Bull was not the only thing troubling Minardi. "The thing that surprised me the most was the engine's sound," he said.
"It sounded like none of the other Renault engines on track, including Mark's. It sounded similar to the engines in past seasons when traction control went into action. Furthermore, that sound was only heard when Vettel chalked up his excellent performances," added Minardi. "For example, after the safety car went in. In those moments it was more powerful (sounding) than any other engines -- Renault and the other brands. I would like to have some answers," he continued. "I don't want to blame anyone, I just want to get to the bottom of it." (GMM)
Also, if it were true, just how easy is it to hide a traction control system on an F1 car?
percymk4 said:
What's everyone's thoughts on this? Some substance behind it or just people refusing to believe Vettel is as quick as he is?
Also, if it were true, just how easy is it to hide a traction control system on an F1 car?
I wouldn't make any sweeping judgement either way though two things stand out. F1 is huge business and astonishingly technical so anything is possible (as has been proven in the past) and Minardi clearly has a wealth of experience and is no scaremonger.Also, if it were true, just how easy is it to hide a traction control system on an F1 car?
I don't think his concerns should be dismissed out of hand.
http://jalopnik.com/has-red-bull-figured-out-how-t...
Storm in a teacup.
Vettel's pole lap video: http://youtu.be/llumh1Vcp34
Just looks like a good anticipatory driving. Nothing fishy about the engine sounds either.
Maldonando's pole lap from last year: http://youtu.be/AFKaEKQrH5E
Again, not too many corrections other than one mistake. Very smooth and "on it" throughout.
Remember that the rules for exhaust layout, blown diffusers, and off-throttle engine retardation remained the same from 2012 to 2013.
Storm in a teacup.
Vettel's pole lap video: http://youtu.be/llumh1Vcp34
Just looks like a good anticipatory driving. Nothing fishy about the engine sounds either.
Maldonando's pole lap from last year: http://youtu.be/AFKaEKQrH5E
Again, not too many corrections other than one mistake. Very smooth and "on it" throughout.
Remember that the rules for exhaust layout, blown diffusers, and off-throttle engine retardation remained the same from 2012 to 2013.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 30th September 12:24
If there was something dodgy about Vettel's car and the way it transmitted its power, I'm sure the Renault technicians monitoring the engine would have spotted something by now - different power delivery curves etc. would show up, especially when compared to the same data from Webber's car ( and the other Renault engine cars too )
Or it's all to do with the legal selectable engine maps on the steering wheel.
Isn't that what they are all doing? To "manage the thermal degradation of the tyres".
Driver goes along straight flat out, starts to brake and turn into a 3rd gear corner, he presses engine map 3 on his wheel which limits power for a maximum usable 3rd gear corner without spinning the wheels excessively. Goes off down next straight, heavy braking for a 2nd gear corner, selects engine map 2, which reduces maximum power, but gives enough to keep optimum slip angle of tyres, accelerates and changes engine map back to normal.
They have a Pedal Map and the Torque Demand Map selection on their steering wheels - http://f1framework.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/f1-engin...
When they are driving around during practice they are no doubt seeking optimal slip angle on the tyres to set the maps correctly, some get it right and some get it wrong.
Isn't that what they are all doing? To "manage the thermal degradation of the tyres".
Driver goes along straight flat out, starts to brake and turn into a 3rd gear corner, he presses engine map 3 on his wheel which limits power for a maximum usable 3rd gear corner without spinning the wheels excessively. Goes off down next straight, heavy braking for a 2nd gear corner, selects engine map 2, which reduces maximum power, but gives enough to keep optimum slip angle of tyres, accelerates and changes engine map back to normal.
They have a Pedal Map and the Torque Demand Map selection on their steering wheels - http://f1framework.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/f1-engin...
When they are driving around during practice they are no doubt seeking optimal slip angle on the tyres to set the maps correctly, some get it right and some get it wrong.
Composite Guru said:
I think people should stop cussing this bloke and move on. Do you really think its in Red Bulls interest to cheat to win a championship? If they were cheating and got found out then they would be finished in F1 imo.
We already know Red Bull management is quite prepared to break the rules, so long as the car passes whatever tests the FIA devise. (Very flexy front wings) E.g. they design to the tests not the rules. So if they have found a way to gain an advantage by doing something that will no show up in the tests. I'd be pretty sure they'll do it.But given a standard ECU I think it's more likely that as someone suggested above, Vettel is using the engine maps etc in a more "artistic" manner than some other drivers.
Composite Guru said:
I think people should stop cussing this bloke and move on. Do you really think its in Red Bulls interest to cheat to win a championship? If they were cheating and got found out then they would be finished in F1 imo.
I would agree with your first statement. I can't see Red Bull cheating with this system, although I do think that they are very often walking a tightrope that others less well ingratiated, would have fallen off by now.On the second part I do not agree at all. History has shown those ‘outside’ the inner circle that people can cheat and get away with it so long as they can’t be caught (flexi wings where the test was not ‘strong’ enough to prove the non compliance with the rule despite anyone with a pair of eyes knowing that they were in breach) or the governing entities, for reasons of their own, aren’t interested in imposing penalties (Benetton’s TC).
Part of the issue is that if there was any issue even if you found it and could prove it, then you have to face the fact that one e-mail sent from Austria would remove 4 cars from the grid at a stroke.
I'm a sceptic. IF there was a difference between team Vettel and Team Webber's gear, people would know about it (within the team). IMO, the chances of every single person who knows about it staying silent is virtually nil, especially over a long enough time frame.
As a result my assumption is that it doesn't exist.
As a result my assumption is that it doesn't exist.
With the expertise that Red Bull have at their disposal probally very easy to trick the std ECu , They shot themselves in the foot by allowing Vettle to show the true pace.
He was 2 secs a lap quicker than the sister car or anyone else for that matter , It really stinks , No wonder they did not want Kimi in the team for if Seb blew him away the game woulf deff be up.
He was 2 secs a lap quicker than the sister car or anyone else for that matter , It really stinks , No wonder they did not want Kimi in the team for if Seb blew him away the game woulf deff be up.
I don't think there is any doubt that the RBRs have a form of traction control. Martin Brundle commented on it during the free practice at Singapore when he did his ' standing on the corner' evaluations. He specifically said there was a lot of "4 cylindering" through certain corners with the RBR.
I assumed that most of the teams could do this? I have been aware that cutting cylinders, not direct TC, but surely TC by any other name, has been used at starts etc for a while and was never convinced that what used to be a problem (controlling 750bhp with the pedal only) for all the drivers was suddenly mastered by them.
Presumably if they can do it all the teams can, given the standard ECU?
I assumed that most of the teams could do this? I have been aware that cutting cylinders, not direct TC, but surely TC by any other name, has been used at starts etc for a while and was never convinced that what used to be a problem (controlling 750bhp with the pedal only) for all the drivers was suddenly mastered by them.
Presumably if they can do it all the teams can, given the standard ECU?
Composite Guru said:
I think people should stop cussing this bloke and move on. Do you really think its in Red Bulls interest to cheat to win a championship? If they were cheating and got found out then they would be finished in F1 imo.
Whilst I agree to an extent with the first part of your post, please do not be as naïve as to think that the majority of teams wouldn't cheat if they thought they could get away with it.There's cheating and there's cheating..
BAR Honda with their double-skinned fuel tank?
Benetton's infamous TC system on Schumacher's 94/95 car?
Renault rigging the '08 Singapore GP
Numerous stories of dodgy fuel, tyres, etc back in the 80's
It's just harder to get away with it nowadays.
scrwright said:
Megaflow said:
Aside from all the points about whether the SECU will support TC, the FIA monitoring useage, etc there is the bigger question as to why you'd want traction control on the way *into* a corner...
maximum kers harvesting without lockup?I am not a Vettel fan at all, but this is ridiculous.
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