German car engine reliability
Discussion
Its is all in there marketing...people believe what they want to...and they like the image....which the marketing projects...The cars once superb in quality are mostly now in many cases less than average, and the worst point of all is you pay a lot for the privilege....I don't mind paying big money if its top notch, or if cheap and the odd bit falls off then fine. I always feel the Audi type thing is for those who feel they have to fit in. A lot of the products are actually quite dull quite often like the folk driving them.
There are those who shout about resale values....that's guff, the more you spend the more you stand to loose in most cases
There are those who shout about resale values....that's guff, the more you spend the more you stand to loose in most cases
Edited by Rum Runner on Sunday 21st April 21:33
Well I'm quite happy with my BMW (*) which now has just under 200,000km in 5 years and has only been in the garage once and that was to replace a Lambda sensor, it also gets driven a lot harder than normal, regularly hitting speeds of 250km/h+ on the 300km weekly drive to work. Unlike the C32 AMG which was quite often at the dealers getting bits and pieces replaced or repaired and a whole new engine after 30,000km...
(*) Admittedly it is an Alpina B3BT
(*) Admittedly it is an Alpina B3BT
BMW are a bit unusual in that they seems to bias their R&D their budget towards features that I can only describe as those that sell cars well to the discerning buyer. Styling, chassis dynamics and technology. Every time I sit in a new one it's just glorious. The wonderful feel, the smell, the ergonomics.
But they are not so good at executing rugged and serviceable detail design of all the stuff behind the scenes, something the Asians excel at.
You really need to apply a lot of TLC to see one survive the later years. I've had two and it's been a love'em/hate'em thing.
My 81-yr old mother's E46 320D has only 120,000 km on it but drives like an old truck. For me it's been an experiment - see how well it lasts with only the dealer service. First the front torsional damper disintegrated, then the exhaust system vibrated apart bit by bit. Now something is wrong with the injectors (excessive leakage?) and it vibrates badly at cold idle. It pulls strongly to one side but the dealer can't seem to fix it. I would have sold it long ago.
But they are not so good at executing rugged and serviceable detail design of all the stuff behind the scenes, something the Asians excel at.
You really need to apply a lot of TLC to see one survive the later years. I've had two and it's been a love'em/hate'em thing.
My 81-yr old mother's E46 320D has only 120,000 km on it but drives like an old truck. For me it's been an experiment - see how well it lasts with only the dealer service. First the front torsional damper disintegrated, then the exhaust system vibrated apart bit by bit. Now something is wrong with the injectors (excessive leakage?) and it vibrates badly at cold idle. It pulls strongly to one side but the dealer can't seem to fix it. I would have sold it long ago.
Ah the wonder of German cars = 1.2 VW polo an engine designed without a timing chain tensioner !
2.0 ltr VW oil pump designed with hex drive that rounds off at appx 70,000 ,lasy example i knew of was Ford Essex back in the 60s /70s ,VW,s answer was end of life was 7 years !
VW,s om 1 auto box no filler plug no drain plug ,plug in sump is the fluid level ,gearbox breather doubles up as a filler ,danger with these boxes only use fully synthetic other wise you end up with gear box with mind of its own ,i bought a Seat Arosa auto for the wife it had 18000 on the clock but 5 owners ,took me a couple of days to track down what was wrong ,sorted it out now its ok .
VW polo /seat power steering pumps 20,000 and its shot !
I have a 1978 scimitar V6 open the bonnet and you can see an engine = no plastic cover over it ,and i dont have to take off six items to get to the bit i want,yes it has a hex drive on the oil pump but its still in good shape :
2.0 ltr VW oil pump designed with hex drive that rounds off at appx 70,000 ,lasy example i knew of was Ford Essex back in the 60s /70s ,VW,s answer was end of life was 7 years !
VW,s om 1 auto box no filler plug no drain plug ,plug in sump is the fluid level ,gearbox breather doubles up as a filler ,danger with these boxes only use fully synthetic other wise you end up with gear box with mind of its own ,i bought a Seat Arosa auto for the wife it had 18000 on the clock but 5 owners ,took me a couple of days to track down what was wrong ,sorted it out now its ok .
VW polo /seat power steering pumps 20,000 and its shot !
I have a 1978 scimitar V6 open the bonnet and you can see an engine = no plastic cover over it ,and i dont have to take off six items to get to the bit i want,yes it has a hex drive on the oil pump but its still in good shape :
KiwiME said:
BMW are a bit unusual in that they seems to bias their R&D their budget towards features that I can only describe as those that sell cars well to the discerning buyer. Styling, chassis dynamics and technology. Every time I sit in a new one it's just glorious. The wonderful feel, the smell, the ergonomics.
But they are not so good at executing rugged and serviceable detail design of all the stuff behind the scenes, something the Asians excel at.
You really need to apply a lot of TLC to see one survive the later years. I've had two and it's been a love'em/hate'em thing.
My 81-yr old mother's E46 320D has only 120,000 km on it but drives like an old truck. For me it's been an experiment - see how well it lasts with only the dealer service. First the front torsional damper disintegrated, then the exhaust system vibrated apart bit by bit. Now something is wrong with the injectors (excessive leakage?) and it vibrates badly at cold idle. It pulls strongly to one side but the dealer can't seem to fix it. I would have sold it long ago.
I'm sadly involved with one of these hateful sBut they are not so good at executing rugged and serviceable detail design of all the stuff behind the scenes, something the Asians excel at.
You really need to apply a lot of TLC to see one survive the later years. I've had two and it's been a love'em/hate'em thing.
My 81-yr old mother's E46 320D has only 120,000 km on it but drives like an old truck. For me it's been an experiment - see how well it lasts with only the dealer service. First the front torsional damper disintegrated, then the exhaust system vibrated apart bit by bit. Now something is wrong with the injectors (excessive leakage?) and it vibrates badly at cold idle. It pulls strongly to one side but the dealer can't seem to fix it. I would have sold it long ago.
tboxes at the mo. After replacing a £150 MAF to finally clear the 'your MAF is shagged' fault code, the heap of st STILL won't go properly. Next up is removing the catalyst, again. The POS is not showing any faults now, even on INPA. A blocked cat is the next drama.These things really are absolute f
king rubbish. Great when new, but a never ending money pit when they get older. By rights it should have been weighed in for scrap 2 years ago.No surprise to see Honda at the top, nice to know the largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines in the world also has the lowest failure rate. Looking at how reliable VTEC is compared to the Horrors of BMW VANOS the results seem to fit in with my experience of cars.
Video on YouTube shows the motor in my Civic D16Y7 happily plodding along for 20 minutes minus any oil!! Most German motors go bang when you look at them the wrong way
Video on YouTube shows the motor in my Civic D16Y7 happily plodding along for 20 minutes minus any oil!! Most German motors go bang when you look at them the wrong way
My father's merc Vito diesel van now on its third turbo, which u fitted at xmas. First one went at 30 000 miles and dumped a load of engine oil down the cat destroying it too. Replaced under warranty. Second one started disintegrating last autumn with the blades cracking up. Changed it for him using a recon unit but parts alone was £600. The usual maf sensors have all failed and been replaced. The crank case has cracked and had to be welded. He just finished paying me for the turbo and the gearbox control units have failed leaving it in limp mode. £500 quid for parts again. Serviced every 10000 miles and well looked after by him an ex mot tester/mechanic. Only uses bp diesel and drives like the old man he is. I despair.
My B7 Audi RS4 suffered suspension failure at 1500 miles. A common fault and following pressure from owners and the media, they extended the warranty to 5 years on the suspension components. Audi had experienced the same issue with the RS6 but still decided to fit a similar system to the RS4.
The Engines suffer from excessive carbon build up due to an incompatibility issue with the specified engine oil and have so far, not come up with an alternative. Finally, many RS4's engines did not make their specified power output and some owners successfully rejected the cars on that basis.
The Engines suffer from excessive carbon build up due to an incompatibility issue with the specified engine oil and have so far, not come up with an alternative. Finally, many RS4's engines did not make their specified power output and some owners successfully rejected the cars on that basis.
Edited by David911RSR on Wednesday 22 May 12:01
I've owned more than a few German cars and one thing that has never been an issue is engine reliability.
Bushes mainly as they are generally heavy cars. Exhausts and thats it. Maybe i've just been lucky. When i buy a German car I know I may not be getting the most exciting car but it will be well built and very reliable (not the early Mini, it was in and out of the garage too many times).
Never personally owned a turbo diesel though. Think thats a different ball game.
On my second Toyota company car. The Amazon would have gone on forever and the new HiLux has the same sturdy feel. But it isn't fast, it doesn't go around corners at any great speed. Its not a drivers car at all. Its built to last. Like most machines which go on forever. Not exactly the best steers.
Bushes mainly as they are generally heavy cars. Exhausts and thats it. Maybe i've just been lucky. When i buy a German car I know I may not be getting the most exciting car but it will be well built and very reliable (not the early Mini, it was in and out of the garage too many times).
Never personally owned a turbo diesel though. Think thats a different ball game.
On my second Toyota company car. The Amazon would have gone on forever and the new HiLux has the same sturdy feel. But it isn't fast, it doesn't go around corners at any great speed. Its not a drivers car at all. Its built to last. Like most machines which go on forever. Not exactly the best steers.
I have a 2012 F30 320d and am less than impressed with build quality and reliability. Various issues from just two weeks old, and at 24k it couldn't in any way pass for a new car. Paint marks if you stare at it too hard, various rattles and marked trim, turbo whines like a distant police siren on cold oil, clutch judders when hot, idle is increasingly rough (hallmarks of early stages of DMF failure).
Never felt like a quality car even from new. Lots of cheap plastics and low rent fabrics inside. If you push the surround of the climate control panel for example, the whole thing moves and creaks like something out of an 80's Peugeot. It smacks to me of fundamental corners being cut to pay for the ludicrous amount of tech on the car. Plus of course generous equipment levels which are a relatively new thing for BMW (20 years ago you paid extra for a radio)
We also have a mk4 Golf GT TDI PD130 in the household and that is ten times the car the BMW is in terms of reliability and general quality. At 130k it is still as reliable as the tides.
Never felt like a quality car even from new. Lots of cheap plastics and low rent fabrics inside. If you push the surround of the climate control panel for example, the whole thing moves and creaks like something out of an 80's Peugeot. It smacks to me of fundamental corners being cut to pay for the ludicrous amount of tech on the car. Plus of course generous equipment levels which are a relatively new thing for BMW (20 years ago you paid extra for a radio)
We also have a mk4 Golf GT TDI PD130 in the household and that is ten times the car the BMW is in terms of reliability and general quality. At 130k it is still as reliable as the tides.
rijmij99 said:
interesting to note the high placing of fiat in there, but that won't stop people spouting stories from the 70's and 80's and most of the 90's TBF. having owned a few modern fiat/alfas they do seem to last longer than the rest of the streets generic german cars
+1 for Fiats !My Fiat coupe did 90K miles before it required an engine overhaul which was done by a indy for £1K
now on 120K and still goes real well. Turbo does smoke a bit on tick over but got through an M.O.T OK
dam good under rated car. I asked the indy chap who did the engine at the time what he would recommend if I wanted to change. He said dunno all modern cars seem to be built on a budget, just run the Fiat for as long as you can. As for German cars just sold my SLK AMG 55 that was such a good car and no problems in the 2 years I had it. Could it be said that performance cars are better put together ?
Edited by petrolpat on Monday 27th May 18:19
A very interesting thread thank you, and a subject I had researched since I now have the means to upgrade my car. But is it any wonder that I have decided to keep my old T202 Merc? No cam belt but chain, no DPF, no trip computers, no rain sensors, just basic engineering that seems to go on without complaint. It's only done 160,000 miles but my neighbour has just sold hers at 360,000 with no major problems recorded in it's lifetime with one family. Your stories lead me to wonder what on earth to do when eventually it dies.
What screws the germans is their almost 100% reliance on bloody diesel engines! They are a nightmare. Why anyone who isn't a company car driver doing 20K miles a year would buy one is a mystery to me. Look at all the old petrol engined beemers about and you can see things were better when there weren't these blasted TDIs!
Basically buy a car without a turbo, DPF, DSG, dual mass flywheel or any of that crap and you should be fine!
Basically buy a car without a turbo, DPF, DSG, dual mass flywheel or any of that crap and you should be fine!
Hello bezza ,thought provoking.I am a self employed sales agent ..25000 miles a year. My '57 120d auto excellant for me ,size wise no parking issues a turn of pace for what it is.The Turbo went at 90K £2200.Now just waiting for the timing chain to go and the car will have to be scrapped I guess.
What to do??? The MPGs on these BMW TD's seem far better than other Marques.I have thought about Petrol ,just do not know what to do.
What to do??? The MPGs on these BMW TD's seem far better than other Marques.I have thought about Petrol ,just do not know what to do.
I am car trader and buy and sell german cars all the time , most of high millage bmws i buy have more spent on them in their service history than any other german car i buy in , is that a good thing ?
I will say one thing , i kept a 123d m-sport from 60k to 100k , it was more my mrs car than mine, awesome little car but when it got up and around that 100k mark it had everything going wrong and lighting up on the dash
Mine had the dreaded swirl flaps go on it at 90k , and unlike the older type engine where you could just buy a blanking kit for £80 and away you go, mine had to have a complete inlet manifold box cost £800 fitted and apparently i was lucky it didn't cost me an engine.
Love BMWs ,but not a car i would keep long term anymore if i am honest .
I will say one thing , i kept a 123d m-sport from 60k to 100k , it was more my mrs car than mine, awesome little car but when it got up and around that 100k mark it had everything going wrong and lighting up on the dash
Mine had the dreaded swirl flaps go on it at 90k , and unlike the older type engine where you could just buy a blanking kit for £80 and away you go, mine had to have a complete inlet manifold box cost £800 fitted and apparently i was lucky it didn't cost me an engine.
Love BMWs ,but not a car i would keep long term anymore if i am honest .
Sorry for the old thread resurrection but i just spotted this comment in the comment section.
"The MG Rover failure rate is shocking.
Honda might be reliable - in theory - but I'd rather drive a VW due to the aspirational nature of the brand.
I've got a Golf 2.0 TDI and it has been reliable so far."
"The MG Rover failure rate is shocking.
Honda might be reliable - in theory - but I'd rather drive a VW due to the aspirational nature of the brand.
I've got a Golf 2.0 TDI and it has been reliable so far."
Interesting thread, and it's got me thinking about how times have changed since I started driving. Many of us of a 'certain age' can remember how easy it was to go through a sequence of checks if the car didn't start: was fuel getting through to the carb, was a spark reaching the plugs, were the points and plug gaps OK? etc. Compare that to cars now where, unless you have access to diagnostic equipment, there's not a lot you can do yourself. Most modern cars are scrapped simply because it's not economical to repair them or replace parts, whereas it was excessive corrosion that killed off the last generation's cars. So it's basically built-in obsolescence of a different form today, and we still get stitched up by manufacturers now as then. But washing machine and vacuum cleaner manufacturers are no different.....
I can't compare the reliability of different cars from personal experience to any great extent, but my 9 year old e46 320d must be approaching the 'danger zone' with 78k on the clock, despite regular care, servicing and removal of the swirl flaps. I don't do a particularly high mileage and should never have bought a diesel. The engine rattles like a London taxi cab and it's only saving grace is it's comfortable and handles well.
As for the earlier poster's comments on the B7 RS4, they are known for DRC failure (ie dampers) and carbon build up, though owners' opinions of the latter's effect on performance varies greatly. I've not heard that they produce less than the manufacturer's quoted power (414 bhp) and some owners have reported a higher figure after a carbon clean. Otherwise they're a great good car albeit it b****y expensive to run, like many high-performance cars.
I can't compare the reliability of different cars from personal experience to any great extent, but my 9 year old e46 320d must be approaching the 'danger zone' with 78k on the clock, despite regular care, servicing and removal of the swirl flaps. I don't do a particularly high mileage and should never have bought a diesel. The engine rattles like a London taxi cab and it's only saving grace is it's comfortable and handles well.
As for the earlier poster's comments on the B7 RS4, they are known for DRC failure (ie dampers) and carbon build up, though owners' opinions of the latter's effect on performance varies greatly. I've not heard that they produce less than the manufacturer's quoted power (414 bhp) and some owners have reported a higher figure after a carbon clean. Otherwise they're a great good car albeit it b****y expensive to run, like many high-performance cars.
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