Blanket 20mph limit across Wales from 2023
Discussion
Blanket 20mph will be a vote winner until all the voters get caught!! One of our local villages campaigned for a 20mph zone, got it and now complain they are all getting tickets through the post. Apparently it was set up for people travelling through the village not those that live in it 'who know the dangers for the local area'.
I understand and think it is a good idea for areas that have high risk (schools / hospitals when they are open) but if its blanket 24/7 then people won't follow it the same as the 20mph zone above. A lot of our local roads that were NSL and are now 50/40mph and the 40/30mph zones that have become 30/20mph and the new limits are largely ignored as they can be covered safely at the previous peed limit as they have been for decades.
I understand and think it is a good idea for areas that have high risk (schools / hospitals when they are open) but if its blanket 24/7 then people won't follow it the same as the 20mph zone above. A lot of our local roads that were NSL and are now 50/40mph and the 40/30mph zones that have become 30/20mph and the new limits are largely ignored as they can be covered safely at the previous peed limit as they have been for decades.
LeeM135i said:
Blanket 20mph will be a vote winner until all the voters get caught!! One of our local villages campaigned for a 20mph zone, got it and now complain they are all getting tickets through the post. Apparently it was set up for people travelling through the village not those that live in it 'who know the dangers for the local area'.
Getting caught be what though?I was talking about this with colleagues the other day. If many villages located on trunk roads are effected by this then we'll likely see average speed camera zone along the length of the villages (an example being the Bridgend area where there are no bypasses in the valleys areas).
Which could likely mean that you won't see residents (or local delivery drivers) being caught as they'd rarely be driving end to end through their village on a journey.
Can't say I'm against that. I imagine cost are significantly reduced with the combination of widespread use of ANPR systems and 5G connections. Apart from power off a streetlight they're a straightforward install.
Evanivitch said:
LeeM135i said:
Blanket 20mph will be a vote winner until all the voters get caught!! One of our local villages campaigned for a 20mph zone, got it and now complain they are all getting tickets through the post. Apparently it was set up for people travelling through the village not those that live in it 'who know the dangers for the local area'.
Getting caught be what though?I was talking about this with colleagues the other day. If many villages located on trunk roads are effected by this then we'll likely see average speed camera zone along the length of the villages (an example being the Bridgend area where there are no bypasses in the valleys areas).
Which could likely mean that you won't see residents (or local delivery drivers) being caught as they'd rarely be driving end to end through their village on a journey.
Can't say I'm against that. I imagine cost are significantly reduced with the combination of widespread use of ANPR systems and 5G connections. Apart from power off a streetlight they're a straightforward install.
bigothunter said:
Xenobian said:
bigothunter said:
Lower speed limits are popular with the electorate, many of whom don't even drive. Blanket 20mph limit is a vote winner.
Where do they get these voters from? 
Car haters or those with huge reservations are in the majority. Doubt whether many of the 9 million in London and other big cities actually like cars. Then we have greenies, eco-warriors, disinterested millennials, safety zealots, most women, woke generation, indoctrinated young adults, non-drivers et al. Not to mention Brake supporters.
I've raised concern on classic car forums about creeping speed limits, ISA and other draconian measures. Other 'enthusiasts' vehemently disagreed with statements like: "That will stop those flash b
ds in their BMWs speeding in the outside lane". I was almost a lone voice.Surveys are always open to corruption. But even the RAC has found support for more speed restrictions. Issues like speed cameras, 60mph motorway limit (50mph in the rain), ISA and 20mph urban limits typically get 70 to 75% approval.
Motorists and especially enthusiasts are not popular. Blanket 20mph limit is a vote winner.
Saleen836 said:
Looks like a Labour U turn is on the books....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11072923/...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11072923/...
ingenieur said:
I don't really believe all of that. Remember when we had a referendum on EU membership and all you ever heard from anyone was how great it would be to be able to go to France without having to change your money. Then the day after the vote when the referendum results were announced it turned out the majority of people didn't buy the official narrative.
You were right (and I was wrong)... Sense has prevailed much to Mark Drakeford's disappointment. There is hope after all
It's just one council. The blundering power-crazed fools in the Senedd are ploughing ahead.
The council which has overturned their 20mph limits will have them re-imposed when the national legislation goes through next year.
I still think they're barking mad.
I'm reading the line about encouraging people to walk and cycle more. It's a 21 mile round trip to the supermarket for me. Making a couple of the 30mph sections 20mph is not going to force me to consider walking or cycling there. I doubt any of my neighbours in our village will be doing that either.
The council which has overturned their 20mph limits will have them re-imposed when the national legislation goes through next year.
I still think they're barking mad.
I'm reading the line about encouraging people to walk and cycle more. It's a 21 mile round trip to the supermarket for me. Making a couple of the 30mph sections 20mph is not going to force me to consider walking or cycling there. I doubt any of my neighbours in our village will be doing that either.
Until recently, I didn't realise that from September 2023, around 35% of Welsh roads by length, will have 20mph speed restrictions. Difficult not to see that restriction as a major attack on the car, even a first step towards the end of private motoring. Very sobering - this pernicious trend could readily spread across the UK:
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/...
Direct financial cost of implementation is estimated as £33 million. Can't help wondering what's the ongoing cost to individuals and Welsh economy due to lost productivity. Rather more than £33 million I suspect.
Wouldn't these funds be better spent on Wales NHS which habitually underperforms? Something I find disgraceful in a Labour dominated region. But Mark has a vision and that takes priority.
Feels as though we are all losing, almost voluntarily
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/...
Direct financial cost of implementation is estimated as £33 million. Can't help wondering what's the ongoing cost to individuals and Welsh economy due to lost productivity. Rather more than £33 million I suspect.
Wouldn't these funds be better spent on Wales NHS which habitually underperforms? Something I find disgraceful in a Labour dominated region. But Mark has a vision and that takes priority.
Feels as though we are all losing, almost voluntarily
bigothunter said:
Until recently, I didn't realise that from September 2023, around 35% of Welsh roads by length, will have 20mph speed restrictions. Difficult not to see that restriction as a major attack on the car, even a first step towards the end of private motoring. Very sobering - this pernicious trend could readily spread across the UK:
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/...
Direct financial cost of implementation is estimated as £33 million. Can't help wondering what's the ongoing cost to individuals and Welsh economy due to lost productivity. Rather more than £33 million I suspect.
Wouldn't these funds be better spent on Wales NHS which habitually underperforms? Something I find disgraceful in a Labour dominated region. But Mark has a vision and that takes priority.
Feels as though we are all losing, almost voluntarily
It's not an attack on motorists. It's in defence of vulnerable road users. It's well overdue. We have Victorian era local road infrastructure that has been overwhelmed by sheer quantity and size of modern cars. It's not stopping anyone using their car if they choose, nor does it effect average journey times because little of those journeys is travelled at 30mph in urban environments.https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/...
Direct financial cost of implementation is estimated as £33 million. Can't help wondering what's the ongoing cost to individuals and Welsh economy due to lost productivity. Rather more than £33 million I suspect.
Wouldn't these funds be better spent on Wales NHS which habitually underperforms? Something I find disgraceful in a Labour dominated region. But Mark has a vision and that takes priority.
Feels as though we are all losing, almost voluntarily
In turn, £33m is a lot less than the cost to the NHS in pollution and road accidents.
Evanivitch said:
It's not an attack on motorists. It's in defence of vulnerable road users. It's well overdue. We have Victorian era local road infrastructure that has been overwhelmed by sheer quantity and size of modern cars. It's not stopping anyone using their car if they choose, nor does it effect average journey times because little of those journeys is travelled at 30mph in urban environments.
In turn, £33m is a lot less than the cost to the NHS in pollution and road accidents.
What makes you believe 20mph limit reduces pollution? Or even accidents?In turn, £33m is a lot less than the cost to the NHS in pollution and road accidents.
wyson said:
Loads of 20mph limits in London. Generally, I think they are completely fair and I stick to them. My old road was a 20mph road. It had a single width space down the middle, cars parked on both sides with limited visibility. Would have no chance of seeing a kid if they decided to run out between parked cars. There was also very limited visibility at junctions too. Had to stop a fair few times because cars popped out blind. They would only have been able to see me once they came out onto the road, especially with a van or SUV parked near the junction.
TBF, I have seen 20mph roads with amazing visibility, speed humped etc measures that were probably implemented because they were used as rat runs and cars sped down them during rush hour.
In London at least, the majority of 20mph zones, I found myself driving down them 20mph to 25mph. 30mph would have been too fast so I can understand councils taking precautionary measures by implementing 20mph zones.
LOL, I drive in London on 20 MPH roads and no one does 20 MPH it's more like 30, pathetic draconian speed limits. TBF, I have seen 20mph roads with amazing visibility, speed humped etc measures that were probably implemented because they were used as rat runs and cars sped down them during rush hour.
In London at least, the majority of 20mph zones, I found myself driving down them 20mph to 25mph. 30mph would have been too fast so I can understand councils taking precautionary measures by implementing 20mph zones.
Edited by wyson on Sunday 20th March 10:52
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
What makes you believe 20mph limit reduces pollution? Or even accidents?
The scientific literature and statistical data.These plots demonstrate that 20mph uses more fuel and generates more emissions than 30mph. This is real data not political propaganda (20mph = 32km/h, 30mph = 48km/h).
Edited by bigothunter on Monday 10th October 12:44
bigothunter said:
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
What makes you believe 20mph limit reduces pollution? Or even accidents?
The scientific literature and statistical data.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
What makes you believe 20mph limit reduces pollution? Or even accidents?
The scientific literature and statistical data.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
Comparing the year after the introduction of the limits, there was a 12% reduction in accidents which resulted in a minor injury and 24% fewer accidents which resulted in a serious injury. There was a reduction in all pedestrian accidents by 17% and with car drivers by 14%.
A TRL reviewof 250 20mph zones in England, Scotland and Wales stated that traffic flow in 20mph zones reduced on average by 27%.
20mph limits are appropriate for roads where average speeds are already low (below 24mph)
So new 20mph limits resulted in a 14% reduction in pedestrian accidents even though traffic volume fell by 27%. And does below 24mph existing average really apply to 35% of Wales entire road network?
Hardly a convincing case for large-scale 20 limits on safety grounds especially against the obvious penalties. But thanks for that ROSPA report which highlights just how false the case really is.
bigothunter said:
So new 20mph limits resulted in a 14% reduction in pedestrian accidents even though traffic volume fell by 27%. And does below 24mph existing average really apply to 35% of Wales entire road network?
Hardly a convincing case for large-scale 20 limits on safety grounds especially against the obvious penalties. But thanks for that ROSPA report which highlights just how false the case really is.
Seems like you're basing your incorrect conclusion and your own incorrect assumptions and bias. But that was obvious from the start. Facts bare truth, 20 mph improves pedestrian safety and reduces pollution. Hardly a convincing case for large-scale 20 limits on safety grounds especially against the obvious penalties. But thanks for that ROSPA report which highlights just how false the case really is.
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
So new 20mph limits resulted in a 14% reduction in pedestrian accidents even though traffic volume fell by 27%. And does below 24mph existing average really apply to 35% of Wales entire road network?
Hardly a convincing case for large-scale 20 limits on safety grounds especially against the obvious penalties. But thanks for that ROSPA report which highlights just how false the case really is.
Seems like you're basing your incorrect conclusion and your own incorrect assumptions and bias. But that was obvious from the start. Facts bare truth, 20 mph improves pedestrian safety and reduces pollution. Hardly a convincing case for large-scale 20 limits on safety grounds especially against the obvious penalties. But thanks for that ROSPA report which highlights just how false the case really is.
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
So new 20mph limits resulted in a 14% reduction in pedestrian accidents even though traffic volume fell by 27%. And does below 24mph existing average really apply to 35% of Wales entire road network?
Hardly a convincing case for large-scale 20 limits on safety grounds especially against the obvious penalties. But thanks for that ROSPA report which highlights just how false the case really is.
Seems like you're basing your incorrect conclusion and your own incorrect assumptions and bias. But that was obvious from the start. Facts bare truth, 20 mph improves pedestrian safety and reduces pollution.Hardly a convincing case for large-scale 20 limits on safety grounds especially against the obvious penalties. But thanks for that ROSPA report which highlights just how false the case really is.
Evidence suggests that blanket 20mph limits have no significant effect on safety and may actually degrade it. However they clearly reduce traffic volumes. You posted a reference supporting those assertions.
If you can, please refute those conclusions using factual evidence. Otherwise your viewpoint and comments lack any credibility.
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