Help with a Driving Sim Choices - learn left foot braking
Discussion
I appreciate this question gets asked plenty, but would really appreciate a heads up from the experienced hands here.
I'm in my mid forties and have played all the Gran Truismo games up to 6. Always loved them (and Colin McRae Rally 2) but couldn't justify a wheel setup because I was away from home so much with work. I still enjoy GT5 & GT6 on my PS3 but the hand controller sucks!
My aims:
> Improve my road (and possibly rally) driving by using a realistic sim.
> This to include learning left foot braking. (I already have heel & toe down and will want to use it on the sim)
> I haven't tried online racing, I may just be happy with single player stuff.
I understand I will want a load cell brake pedal.
Most likely I would be looking at a lower end direct drive wheel. I've looked at the Thrustmaster T-300 RS GT kit and it seems to be wanting a bit.
The best sim games for immersion, realism and my aims would seem to be Assetto Corsa & Richard Burns Rally (possibly DiRT 2.0 or WRC 8/9/10?)
I do really fancy a VR set up if possible.
At present we are completely a Mac household plus my PS3. I'm thinking a Trak Racing or Next Level wheel stand with my IKEA Poang chair through the living room TV after the missus has gone to bed.
Do I
a) Buy a used gaming PC, used Fanatic/Moza kit and a used wheel stand + maybe and Occulus Rift for VR. Run with Assetto Corsa & Richard Burns Rally.
b) Buy a used PS5 with PSVR2 & GT7, and run it with a used Fanatec Gran Turismo wheel & pedals?
I think I could get both set ups for under £1000 if buying used. There is a knowledge gap for me with PCs, and I think option b might be easier to source.
What would you choose?
Am I better to spend ~£250 on a stand & Thrustmaster T-300 set up with GT6 & PS3 to see how much I actually use it?
Have I made any serious miscalculations?
Thanks very much in advance!
I'm in my mid forties and have played all the Gran Truismo games up to 6. Always loved them (and Colin McRae Rally 2) but couldn't justify a wheel setup because I was away from home so much with work. I still enjoy GT5 & GT6 on my PS3 but the hand controller sucks!
My aims:
> Improve my road (and possibly rally) driving by using a realistic sim.
> This to include learning left foot braking. (I already have heel & toe down and will want to use it on the sim)
> I haven't tried online racing, I may just be happy with single player stuff.
I understand I will want a load cell brake pedal.
Most likely I would be looking at a lower end direct drive wheel. I've looked at the Thrustmaster T-300 RS GT kit and it seems to be wanting a bit.
The best sim games for immersion, realism and my aims would seem to be Assetto Corsa & Richard Burns Rally (possibly DiRT 2.0 or WRC 8/9/10?)
I do really fancy a VR set up if possible.
At present we are completely a Mac household plus my PS3. I'm thinking a Trak Racing or Next Level wheel stand with my IKEA Poang chair through the living room TV after the missus has gone to bed.
Do I
a) Buy a used gaming PC, used Fanatic/Moza kit and a used wheel stand + maybe and Occulus Rift for VR. Run with Assetto Corsa & Richard Burns Rally.
b) Buy a used PS5 with PSVR2 & GT7, and run it with a used Fanatec Gran Turismo wheel & pedals?
I think I could get both set ups for under £1000 if buying used. There is a knowledge gap for me with PCs, and I think option b might be easier to source.
What would you choose?
Am I better to spend ~£250 on a stand & Thrustmaster T-300 set up with GT6 & PS3 to see how much I actually use it?
Have I made any serious miscalculations?
Thanks very much in advance!
Edited by sassthathoopie on Sunday 28th April 14:22
Thanks for the suggestions.
Showed the wife Jimmy Broadbent driving a 1970 Ford GT40 in the dark in AC, and a 6R4 in Wales on DiRT earlier and she seems to be onboard
Whilst ACC requires quite a punchy PC for VR, I've heard that there is some good online racing happening now via AC > apparently iRacing style online management has been modded and made available in the last few months. AC would seem to require a little less in terms of PC spec?
Checking out the wide variety of events that AC offers I have to say I'm leaning towards a PC so that I can run it.
> Is the Quest 2 / 3 the best VR headset option or are there others worth considering?
I haven't ordered a PC for more than 10 years.
> Is a used PC sensible?
> What sort of specs am I likely to be looking for if I wanted to run a 2060 / 3070 / 3080 graphic card?
Aside from gaming and maybe some photo storage all our productivity stuff would continue on our Mac laptops I suspect.
Thanks again!
Showed the wife Jimmy Broadbent driving a 1970 Ford GT40 in the dark in AC, and a 6R4 in Wales on DiRT earlier and she seems to be onboard
Whilst ACC requires quite a punchy PC for VR, I've heard that there is some good online racing happening now via AC > apparently iRacing style online management has been modded and made available in the last few months. AC would seem to require a little less in terms of PC spec?
Checking out the wide variety of events that AC offers I have to say I'm leaning towards a PC so that I can run it.
> Is the Quest 2 / 3 the best VR headset option or are there others worth considering?
I haven't ordered a PC for more than 10 years.
> Is a used PC sensible?
> What sort of specs am I likely to be looking for if I wanted to run a 2060 / 3070 / 3080 graphic card?
Aside from gaming and maybe some photo storage all our productivity stuff would continue on our Mac laptops I suspect.
Thanks again!
Edited by sassthathoopie on Monday 29th April 08:14
paul99 said:
Don't underestimate the simplicity of the PS5/PSVR2 + Gt7 setup compared to setting up an adequate PC rig with VR etc... It's a total joy to use and for me the best gaming experience I've had in 30+ years.
I've put 300+ hours into GT7 so far and still have quite a bit of single player content to complete. I am now getting into the online racing as well which is frustrating but a lot of fun.
So you got me thinking. Found a reddit discussion about PC AC in VR vs GT7 in PSVR2 on PS5, and the GT7 option seemed to get the nod. It would seem there is an AC2 coming relatively soon. Seriously considering getting PS5/PC compatible peripherals, and going PSVR2/PS5/GT7 to start. Would make it more accessible for the missus too.I've put 300+ hours into GT7 so far and still have quite a bit of single player content to complete. I am now getting into the online racing as well which is frustrating but a lot of fun.
Edited by paul99 on Monday 29th April 16:34
This video explains the tech well and why you would need to spend a fortune with a PC to match it
PlayStation just killed PC VR
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
Things I've learned:
> If you don't want a basic kit, and want anything other than a Thrustmaster T300 for a PS5 you're going to pay a significant premium - which remains on the used market.
> PSVR2 seems to be better than PC VR options because of the clever tech. Used PSVR2 headsets are pretty good value. PC VR headsets are also reasonable.
> Running VR properly on a PC is spec intensive, so bumps up used PC prices, and availability is much less because you need a newer used machine.
Then I get into the logistics of the space/chairs I have available. Running a PS5 would seem to be much more practical...
Like many others who's threads I've read, I seem to be going round in circles with a required price entry point that rises hourly!
Things I've learned:
> If you don't want a basic kit, and want anything other than a Thrustmaster T300 for a PS5 you're going to pay a significant premium - which remains on the used market.
> PSVR2 seems to be better than PC VR options because of the clever tech. Used PSVR2 headsets are pretty good value. PC VR headsets are also reasonable.
> Running VR properly on a PC is spec intensive, so bumps up used PC prices, and availability is much less because you need a newer used machine.
Then I get into the logistics of the space/chairs I have available. Running a PS5 would seem to be much more practical...
Like many others who's threads I've read, I seem to be going round in circles with a required price entry point that rises hourly!
shirt said:
I never understand threads like these. A sim racer has practically no benefits to road driving and learning to left foot brake efficiently is an afternoon at best. Always seems like someone who wants to game dressing it up as something else. There’s no shame in gaming!
Gary C said:
VR is a must. Without it you can have a fun game but it has no relevance to the road.
The game itself though must be good. I use CMR for rallying and its gravel/snow physics are great, tarmac though is s
te.
I use a PS5 with VR and a Fanatec Elite in a seat and left foot braking is instinctive. Driven a rally car on gravel since and it really improved my driving (especially understanding more brake bias on the rear)
Had it a few years now and there will be better out there, but VR for driving games is fantastic.
You can't both be right! The game itself though must be good. I use CMR for rallying and its gravel/snow physics are great, tarmac though is s
te.I use a PS5 with VR and a Fanatec Elite in a seat and left foot braking is instinctive. Driven a rally car on gravel since and it really improved my driving (especially understanding more brake bias on the rear)
Had it a few years now and there will be better out there, but VR for driving games is fantastic.
To be honest I've read enough reviews to agree with Gary C. Plus pretty much all modern pro drivers in the major formulas use sims for practice/testing bar Lewis Hamilton.
Further research today has dug up the 'DriveHub' from Collective Minds, and the 'Brook Rs1ution2' - a little box that you plug PC only kit into so that you can play it on console. Has anyone used one? Is there much loss of fidelity?
The desire to learn left foot braking is partially down to a relatively recent car purchase. My 1978 Alpine A310 is running triple Webers, and was built to Gr4 specs by Kevin Jones of GTO Engineering - he sold it to me after owning it ~25yrs.
It has needed some working up so I haven’t yet driven it pedal to the metal (GRP ;-)
But it’s a rear engined V6, weighs less than a tonne, and even when not running on song is v rapid. Add in left hand drive, slightly eccentric driving position and highly adjustable suspension, I feel like I want to be able to bring my A game if push comes to shove at some point in the future: Left foot braking should be a way to better control weight transfer, which might be handy when ~65% of the car’s weight wants to overtake the front wheels!
We have also done a few navigational road rallies that have included tests on loose surfaces. Huge fun, and as I understand it left foot braking allows multiple changes of trajectory in a corner to keep you out of trouble.
It has needed some working up so I haven’t yet driven it pedal to the metal (GRP ;-)
But it’s a rear engined V6, weighs less than a tonne, and even when not running on song is v rapid. Add in left hand drive, slightly eccentric driving position and highly adjustable suspension, I feel like I want to be able to bring my A game if push comes to shove at some point in the future: Left foot braking should be a way to better control weight transfer, which might be handy when ~65% of the car’s weight wants to overtake the front wheels!
We have also done a few navigational road rallies that have included tests on loose surfaces. Huge fun, and as I understand it left foot braking allows multiple changes of trajectory in a corner to keep you out of trouble.
Edited by sassthathoopie on Wednesday 8th May 05:26
So today I have bought:
Fanatec CSL Elite+ (PS4)
Fanatec CSL Elite V2 Pedals
Fanatec CSL P1 V2 wheel
Playseat Challenge.
£619 spent so far.
Of course the friendly chap I bought the Playseat Challenge from has a 15nm Clubsport DD+, multiple wheels, an 8020 ally rig running AC nice and smoothly through a really wide curved screen monitor... I can see why this hobby ends up getting expensive!
We had a chat about my proposed GT7 & PSVR2 plan, and he thinks I'd be better going for a PC running AC, possibly without VR so I can afford to run a milder spec PC.
He has offered me his retired gaming PC that he built with a sensible budget in mind 2 years ago, but has since upgraded. Here's the spec:
Ryzen 7 2700 3.2Ghz 8 core CPU
RX590 GPU
AMD Motherboard
PC Case with Cooling fans
16GB RAM
He said it ran AC pretty well on a monitor. Will it run VR via a Quest 2 or Quest 3? or via my 6yo LG 37" Tv that says 50/60Hz on the back. The GPU looks a bit under specced to my 'know nothing' eye.
Many thanks for your continuing assistance.
The Fanatec kit isn't here yet, but I'm sat in the Playseat Challenge and can report that it feels more stable, solid and proper than I was expecting - great recommendation
Fanatec CSL Elite+ (PS4)
Fanatec CSL Elite V2 Pedals
Fanatec CSL P1 V2 wheel
Playseat Challenge.
£619 spent so far.
Of course the friendly chap I bought the Playseat Challenge from has a 15nm Clubsport DD+, multiple wheels, an 8020 ally rig running AC nice and smoothly through a really wide curved screen monitor... I can see why this hobby ends up getting expensive!
We had a chat about my proposed GT7 & PSVR2 plan, and he thinks I'd be better going for a PC running AC, possibly without VR so I can afford to run a milder spec PC.
He has offered me his retired gaming PC that he built with a sensible budget in mind 2 years ago, but has since upgraded. Here's the spec:
Ryzen 7 2700 3.2Ghz 8 core CPU
RX590 GPU
AMD Motherboard
PC Case with Cooling fans
16GB RAM
He said it ran AC pretty well on a monitor. Will it run VR via a Quest 2 or Quest 3? or via my 6yo LG 37" Tv that says 50/60Hz on the back. The GPU looks a bit under specced to my 'know nothing' eye.
Many thanks for your continuing assistance.
The Fanatec kit isn't here yet, but I'm sat in the Playseat Challenge and can report that it feels more stable, solid and proper than I was expecting - great recommendation
Edited by sassthathoopie on Wednesday 8th May 19:44
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
How much does he want for the PC? I have tried running my PC through my 3 year old Samsung 43 inch TV and it is unplayable as it seemed to default to 30 frames per second for some reason. Also it looked absolutely rubbish compared to the 165HZ screen on my gaming laptop.
Thanks for the heads up on the TV. He wants £480. Seems a bit steep to me.Edited by ThingsBehindTheSun on Thursday 9th May 12:00
Gary C said:
RacerMike said:
Gary C said:
RacerMike said:
Not at all telling you you’re wrong, but left foot braking won’t help the weight balance any more than right foot braking will! Learning to trail brake definitely will, but the only reason you might left foot brake in a manual is if a corner is perhaps not quite flat, but a brush of the brakes means it is. In a turbo car this may help slightly on lap time given the fact it’s remaining fully on boost, although if it’s a modern car it probably won’t since their boost control is so much better than it used to be, so a small lift won’t dump all the pressure.
All the things you’ve listed (particularly the offset pedal box) make it very much not the kind of car to be trying to left foot brake in. You’ll just end up pressing the wrong pedal or pressing two at once!
Either way, lovely car and it’ll be a hoot to drive. Sim racing may help improve your driving techniques, but I guess all I’m saying is, definitely don’t focus on the left foot braking thing as virtually nobody does it unless they absolutely have to in reality! Unless you’re a Russian YouTuber who likes to pretend his the king of a long German race track of course…
LFB on gravel, especially with a more rearward brake bias and can be used to unsettle the car to help rotation.All the things you’ve listed (particularly the offset pedal box) make it very much not the kind of car to be trying to left foot brake in. You’ll just end up pressing the wrong pedal or pressing two at once!
Either way, lovely car and it’ll be a hoot to drive. Sim racing may help improve your driving techniques, but I guess all I’m saying is, definitely don’t focus on the left foot braking thing as virtually nobody does it unless they absolutely have to in reality! Unless you’re a Russian YouTuber who likes to pretend his the king of a long German race track of course…
Edited by RacerMike on Wednesday 8th May 00:07
Well actually 'loose surfaces' was the term
Richard Tuthill in lightweight a rear engined machine
Jimmy Broadbent in a lightweight mid/rear engined machine
Although I seem to remember reading a thread (through google translate) on a French Alpine forum about it being a handy technique in the wet on tarmac...
Little bit of an update. Maybe helpful for some other newbies?
When my Fanatec CSL Elite + (PS4) showed up it turned out it was a 1.1 version which looks very similar but isn't Playstation compatible
So I sent it back to CeX where I had ordered it from. The process took much longer than it needed to and they put the price up £20 before I was able to reorder. The frustration caused me to look elsewhere, and I managed to save £60 by buying at Cash Converters, and was also able to speak with a real person and confirm they were sending a PS4 version.
After much thought I decided that a PS5 would be a better introduction to sim racing for me. So I found a used one locally on FB marketplace, and followed up with purchases of GT7 and EA Sports WRC. I haven't tried WRC yet as I wanted to try to build some consistency and there was already so much to get used to. The PS5 decision was made because Sony announced they are trying to make the PSVR2 functional with PCs, and so the upgrade path to a PC would then just be the hardware rather than a headset as well.
The inventory so far:
Fanatec CSL Elite+ (PS4)
Fanatec CSL Elite V2 Pedals
Fanatec CSL P1 V2 wheel
Playseat Challenge
PS5 (+CoD MW2 included)
Gran Turismo 7 (disc, new)
EA Sports WRC (disc, new)
TOTAL: £844
I'm keeping my eyes open for a good deal on a PSVR2 set, but scammers are thick on the ground in this marketplace.
My very old Dell laptop refuses to download the Fanatec driver software, and there is no Mac option as yet. But the set up all works in GT7, and works better now that I found a Fanatec forum thread describing a good base setting for my wheelbase on GT7 and adjusted to that using the wheel's own settings display in the rim.
Before the replacement wheelbase arrived I had about 4 hours driving on the PS5 controller: Actually surprisingly good - I had never tried a hand control that recognised motion before. That said, as soon as I got everything set up right I was immediately quicker.
I've had to work quite hard to limit the brake flex on the Playseat Challenge and I'm not there yet. Have had to drop the brake strength down to 10% to try to get some consistency, and that with supporting wood blocks and spectra strops trying to limit the flex... It does pack down quickly though.
Finally left foot braking: I'm trying to get through the Clubman + 350pp Mini race at Goodwood, and getting thoroughly terrorised by the red mini
I've had to work quite hard at tuning to get a car that isn't left for dust by the others, and find myself essentially driving a SWB 911! I have 194kg of ballast at the back of the car and it wants to pirouette into Woodcote and the chicane. Brake bias adjustment is next for consideration. However I found this brake training video which teaches left foot braking at the end (14:50+) and it definitely seems to stabilise a tail happy car. I could completely see why it wouldn't be a thing in a Caterham though.
Am really enjoying getting up to speed. Thank you everyone who offered advice. The wheelbase seems plenty powerful, and the brake pedal is good, but would be improved with a better mount and possibly some softer elastomers.
When my Fanatec CSL Elite + (PS4) showed up it turned out it was a 1.1 version which looks very similar but isn't Playstation compatible
So I sent it back to CeX where I had ordered it from. The process took much longer than it needed to and they put the price up £20 before I was able to reorder. The frustration caused me to look elsewhere, and I managed to save £60 by buying at Cash Converters, and was also able to speak with a real person and confirm they were sending a PS4 version.
After much thought I decided that a PS5 would be a better introduction to sim racing for me. So I found a used one locally on FB marketplace, and followed up with purchases of GT7 and EA Sports WRC. I haven't tried WRC yet as I wanted to try to build some consistency and there was already so much to get used to. The PS5 decision was made because Sony announced they are trying to make the PSVR2 functional with PCs, and so the upgrade path to a PC would then just be the hardware rather than a headset as well.
The inventory so far:
Fanatec CSL Elite+ (PS4)
Fanatec CSL Elite V2 Pedals
Fanatec CSL P1 V2 wheel
Playseat Challenge
PS5 (+CoD MW2 included)
Gran Turismo 7 (disc, new)
EA Sports WRC (disc, new)
TOTAL: £844
I'm keeping my eyes open for a good deal on a PSVR2 set, but scammers are thick on the ground in this marketplace.
My very old Dell laptop refuses to download the Fanatec driver software, and there is no Mac option as yet. But the set up all works in GT7, and works better now that I found a Fanatec forum thread describing a good base setting for my wheelbase on GT7 and adjusted to that using the wheel's own settings display in the rim.
Before the replacement wheelbase arrived I had about 4 hours driving on the PS5 controller: Actually surprisingly good - I had never tried a hand control that recognised motion before. That said, as soon as I got everything set up right I was immediately quicker.
I've had to work quite hard to limit the brake flex on the Playseat Challenge and I'm not there yet. Have had to drop the brake strength down to 10% to try to get some consistency, and that with supporting wood blocks and spectra strops trying to limit the flex... It does pack down quickly though.
Finally left foot braking: I'm trying to get through the Clubman + 350pp Mini race at Goodwood, and getting thoroughly terrorised by the red mini
I've had to work quite hard at tuning to get a car that isn't left for dust by the others, and find myself essentially driving a SWB 911! I have 194kg of ballast at the back of the car and it wants to pirouette into Woodcote and the chicane. Brake bias adjustment is next for consideration. However I found this brake training video which teaches left foot braking at the end (14:50+) and it definitely seems to stabilise a tail happy car. I could completely see why it wouldn't be a thing in a Caterham though.
Am really enjoying getting up to speed. Thank you everyone who offered advice. The wheelbase seems plenty powerful, and the brake pedal is good, but would be improved with a better mount and possibly some softer elastomers.
Edited by sassthathoopie on Monday 27th May 21:42
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