Discussion
I'd expect low to mid 20s myself. Not too bad for a carburetted 3-litre really.
The problem that Scimitars do tend to suffer from is overheating, as do a lot of cars with the 3-litre Ford V6. I believe there are cooling system upgrades available these days.
This sort of thing seems to be true of most of the more popular classics - the gremlins that bugged them in production have been sorted by aftermarket developers, and the chances are that if the car's still going (and hasn't spent all its time under wraps in a garage) the relevant tweaks have been fitted. Stag engines are not the nightmare that they used to be!
The problem that Scimitars do tend to suffer from is overheating, as do a lot of cars with the 3-litre Ford V6. I believe there are cooling system upgrades available these days.
This sort of thing seems to be true of most of the more popular classics - the gremlins that bugged them in production have been sorted by aftermarket developers, and the chances are that if the car's still going (and hasn't spent all its time under wraps in a garage) the relevant tweaks have been fitted. Stag engines are not the nightmare that they used to be!
Pigeon said:
The problem that Scimitars do tend to suffer from is overheating, as do a lot of cars with the 3-litre Ford V6. I believe there are cooling system upgrades available these days.
This sort of thing seems to be true of most of the more popular classics - the gremlins that bugged them in production have been sorted by aftermarket developers
That's a point well made, and rarely considered.
Also the addition of a modern electric fan is a major improvement over the original engine driven fans.
When you think you've decided what you want, Then join a club to check these things out.
That, I must say, is one issue I have with certain classic cars - the fuel economy. I've never been one for sacrificing all in the name of a few more mpg, but so far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't want my car dropping below, say, 20 mpg if I could help it. Looking at the engine stats, I've figured out the most economical configurations:
-Up to 2.2 litres, turbocharged. Smaller engines that don't have much torque benefit from turbocharging's 'second wind', therefore becoming vaguely economical.
-2.2-3.2 litres, 4 or 6 cylinders, nominally aspirated. For everyday driving, the occasional spirited hoon, long motorway jaunts and so on, a mid-sized engine of this capacity doesn't really need much working on for a sporting response.
-3.2+ litres, 6 or 8 cylinders, supercharged. Big engines don't accelerate very quickly, meaning they use a lot of fuel hauling themselves off the line. Supercharging can cut low-down fuel use by speeding up acceleration, and the natural torque of a big-block will ensure smooth and potentially economical running at motorway speeds.
-Up to 2.2 litres, turbocharged. Smaller engines that don't have much torque benefit from turbocharging's 'second wind', therefore becoming vaguely economical.
-2.2-3.2 litres, 4 or 6 cylinders, nominally aspirated. For everyday driving, the occasional spirited hoon, long motorway jaunts and so on, a mid-sized engine of this capacity doesn't really need much working on for a sporting response.
-3.2+ litres, 6 or 8 cylinders, supercharged. Big engines don't accelerate very quickly, meaning they use a lot of fuel hauling themselves off the line. Supercharging can cut low-down fuel use by speeding up acceleration, and the natural torque of a big-block will ensure smooth and potentially economical running at motorway speeds.
Hi Tim,
I give you the benefit of my thirty five years in classic cars; o'course they weren't classic years ago!
There are very few British cars that come up to anything near the standard of the Germans so bear that in mind.
If you insist on buying British your best choices, taking into account your budget, would be Capri 3 litre, or if you can find one, an early 1600 GT.
I'm sorry, but the Pinto engine doesn't hold a light to the cross flow or V6, so avoid it.
I would personally go for a Cortina 1600E mark 2.
These were very nicely appointed tuned saloons with the 1600 GT engine and Lotus suspension.
I had an absolute beauty that we experimented on at the time to prove that it could be made quicker than the Lotus Cortina.
It had a Crane cam, vernier gears, gas flowed head and twin forties and went like shit off a shovel.
It also had one of the best gearboxes ever made.
If you are sensible you'll look for a '71 BMW 2002 Ti.
Getting rare but still available.
The two interesting variants of this are the Ti and Tii.
The Tii had Kugelfischer mechanical injection, the problem being that apart from myself, maybe a couple of guys in England and a few in Germany, no one knows how to set it up properly. That's not a boast by the way, it's just an observation from years of experience!!
When they're set up properly they are simply awesome.
If you can find a genuine Ti, it runs on twin forties, usually German Solex, but also available with Webbers.
My own Ti had an ex-works cylinder head, twin Webbers, Bosch electronic ignition, Konis, limi-slip diff and Continental 70 profile tyres.
It regularly blew off 4.2 Jags and big engined Mercs.
The problem is finding anything at that age and price that isn't rusty.
Another car that is now rare but still available, is the first Saab 99 Turbos; very different but very rapid.
I give you the benefit of my thirty five years in classic cars; o'course they weren't classic years ago!
There are very few British cars that come up to anything near the standard of the Germans so bear that in mind.
If you insist on buying British your best choices, taking into account your budget, would be Capri 3 litre, or if you can find one, an early 1600 GT.
I'm sorry, but the Pinto engine doesn't hold a light to the cross flow or V6, so avoid it.
I would personally go for a Cortina 1600E mark 2.
These were very nicely appointed tuned saloons with the 1600 GT engine and Lotus suspension.
I had an absolute beauty that we experimented on at the time to prove that it could be made quicker than the Lotus Cortina.
It had a Crane cam, vernier gears, gas flowed head and twin forties and went like shit off a shovel.
It also had one of the best gearboxes ever made.
If you are sensible you'll look for a '71 BMW 2002 Ti.
Getting rare but still available.
The two interesting variants of this are the Ti and Tii.
The Tii had Kugelfischer mechanical injection, the problem being that apart from myself, maybe a couple of guys in England and a few in Germany, no one knows how to set it up properly. That's not a boast by the way, it's just an observation from years of experience!!
When they're set up properly they are simply awesome.
If you can find a genuine Ti, it runs on twin forties, usually German Solex, but also available with Webbers.
My own Ti had an ex-works cylinder head, twin Webbers, Bosch electronic ignition, Konis, limi-slip diff and Continental 70 profile tyres.
It regularly blew off 4.2 Jags and big engined Mercs.
The problem is finding anything at that age and price that isn't rusty.
Another car that is now rare but still available, is the first Saab 99 Turbos; very different but very rapid.
cortina's are a very easy car to work on,the parts are mostly very cheap to get and are easily available (a good condition ghia/crusader type interior for a mk3/4/5 can be bought for around £30-40,complete engines are peanuts)
mk1's are an icon,if you have ever seen the footage of jim clarke racing round corners on 3 wheels in a lotus cortina then you'd be amazed that a car that old could be driven like that.if you think of getting a mk1 then go for a 2-door and lotus rep it!
immaculate condition mk2's go for around 800-1500,depending on model/condition,you can get running and mot'd mk2's for as little as about £3-400...plus the mk2 is tax exempt,saving you a fair bit of wedge.
mk3's are very popular at the moment and their prices have been getting silly but you can still find a good bargain.
mk4/5's can still be bought cheap,even in good condition.late mk5's are the ones to look at,the crusader is classed as 'bottom of the range' but the car had all the extras that were usualy fitted to the ghia (wood door cappings,wood instrament surround,rev countered ghia dash,very comfortable velor interior (recaro fishnets in the 1981 2.0gls).
the mk2-5 were also available in convertable form,these were done mainly by crayford and can cost inexcess of 3 grand.
a guy who is selling his fleet of cortina's,including a mk2 1600e and 2 mk3 estates (one a 1.6,the other a 2000e (very rare now).....if your interested they are in the 'for sale' section of www.buysellcortina.co.uk
mk1's are an icon,if you have ever seen the footage of jim clarke racing round corners on 3 wheels in a lotus cortina then you'd be amazed that a car that old could be driven like that.if you think of getting a mk1 then go for a 2-door and lotus rep it!
immaculate condition mk2's go for around 800-1500,depending on model/condition,you can get running and mot'd mk2's for as little as about £3-400...plus the mk2 is tax exempt,saving you a fair bit of wedge.
mk3's are very popular at the moment and their prices have been getting silly but you can still find a good bargain.
mk4/5's can still be bought cheap,even in good condition.late mk5's are the ones to look at,the crusader is classed as 'bottom of the range' but the car had all the extras that were usualy fitted to the ghia (wood door cappings,wood instrament surround,rev countered ghia dash,very comfortable velor interior (recaro fishnets in the 1981 2.0gls).
the mk2-5 were also available in convertable form,these were done mainly by crayford and can cost inexcess of 3 grand.
a guy who is selling his fleet of cortina's,including a mk2 1600e and 2 mk3 estates (one a 1.6,the other a 2000e (very rare now).....if your interested they are in the 'for sale' section of www.buysellcortina.co.uk
Tim, just had another thought.
If you want to go for a "modern" classic, one of the best buys in the world right now, and I'm not joking when I say that, is a 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 2.3 20 valve. You'll buy a cracker for fifteen hundred quid.
175 Brake, bulletproof build quality and grip to make a sucker blush; and everything you need for it available from importers.
Think about it.
If you want to go for a "modern" classic, one of the best buys in the world right now, and I'm not joking when I say that, is a 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 2.3 20 valve. You'll buy a cracker for fifteen hundred quid.
175 Brake, bulletproof build quality and grip to make a sucker blush; and everything you need for it available from importers.
Think about it.
IOLAIRE said:
Tim, just had another thought.
If you want to go for a "modern" classic, one of the best buys in the world right now, and I'm not joking when I say that, is a 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 2.3 20 valve. You'll buy a cracker for fifteen hundred quid.
175 Brake, bulletproof build quality and grip to make a sucker blush; and everything you need for it available from importers.
Think about it.
You know your cars don't you
... the only other quattro to handle like the original. Sport version even better, but almost impossible to find (marginal improvement anyway)oh dear timothy, still have yet to make up your mind...
if i were you just flick through as many copy's of retro, practical classics et al and see what you like, run through the classifieds and limit cars that seem good for <£1500
or, just do what you know deep down in your heart you want to do and buy a cavalier!!!
if i were you just flick through as many copy's of retro, practical classics et al and see what you like, run through the classifieds and limit cars that seem good for <£1500
or, just do what you know deep down in your heart you want to do and buy a cavalier!!!
Brilliant replies guys, there's a lot of food for thought!
I've had another thought over the weekend...looking through the Classic Cars Weekly newspaper (or whatever it's called?!), I noticed a plethora of late 80s BMW E30 325i's all going for about the grand mark, with sensible mileages, looking in a nice condition....
I've had another thought over the weekend...looking through the Classic Cars Weekly newspaper (or whatever it's called?!), I noticed a plethora of late 80s BMW E30 325i's all going for about the grand mark, with sensible mileages, looking in a nice condition....
as good as the 3-series e30 was,the ones that sell cheaply are usualy on their last legs,if you go for a two door then check the rear panels for filler/rot as the rear arches are usualy the first things to go.if you go for a 6-pot check to see when the headgasket was last done (check the water in the expansion tank for oil) as the headgaskets were a bit prone for failing,check the inspection and service guages on the dash as if they are all green,if they are then ask when the car was last serviced and were the clocks reset by a bmw dealer.dont go for e30's with chrome wheelarches as these trap rot.
personally i wouldnt buy one if you have to work on a budget,they are expensive to run/insure and if they go wrong they can cost a friggin packet to sort out (standard exhaust manifold for a 325i is around £200 from bmw,that not including the downpipes!).
ive owned an '84 for 8 years and believe me,you wouldnt want the repair bills when they go big-time tits-up,stick with cars like fords,vauxhalls etc because the parts are cheaper,you can get the parts virtually anywhere and they are alot easier to work on.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Monday 25th October 01:40
personally i wouldnt buy one if you have to work on a budget,they are expensive to run/insure and if they go wrong they can cost a friggin packet to sort out (standard exhaust manifold for a 325i is around £200 from bmw,that not including the downpipes!).
ive owned an '84 for 8 years and believe me,you wouldnt want the repair bills when they go big-time tits-up,stick with cars like fords,vauxhalls etc because the parts are cheaper,you can get the parts virtually anywhere and they are alot easier to work on.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Monday 25th October 01:40
cortinaman said:
as good as the 3-series e30 was,the ones that sell cheaply are usualy on their last legs,if you go for a two door then check the rear panels for filler/rot as the rear arches are usualy the first things to go.if you go for a 6-pot check to see when the headgasket was last done (check the water in the expansion tank for oil) as the headgaskets were a bit prone for failing,check the inspection and service guages on the dash as if they are all green,if they are then ask when the car was last serviced and were the clocks reset by a bmw dealer.dont go for e30's with chrome wheelarches as these trap rot.
personally i wouldnt buy one if you have to work on a budget,they are expensive to run/insure and if they go wrong they can cost a friggin packet to sort out (standard exhaust manifold for a 325i is around £200 from bmw,that not including the downpipes!).
ive owned an '84 for 8 years and believe me,you wouldnt want the repair bills when they go big-time tits-up,stick with cars like fords,vauxhalls etc because the parts are cheaper,you can get the parts virtually anywhere and they are alot easier to work on.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Monday 25th October 01:40
Sorry cortinaman, I have to take you to task about the spare parts issue.
In my last company we had a lot of fleet servicing and Vauxhall was consistently utterly outrageous for parts prices; Ford weren't far behind them either.
The Audi 90 I mentioned has to be one of the cheapest performance cars to repair and service that you can buy.
5 cylinder head gasket: £14-00.
Front wing: £29.
Front brake pads: £14-00.
Timing Belt: £15-00.
Almost anything you need for it is available from Euro or GSF.
They don't crack cylinder heads, do in camshafts or gearboxes unless you seriously abuse them.
And the single best thing is they don't rust.
aaaaaaah,i thought the guy was after a classic that was cheap to run,insure and maintain,hence why i advised not bothering with beemers and the price of parts for them......let alone insurance costs for a 325i.
classic cars are mostly owned by people who know one end of a spanner from another so taking the car to a dealer for a service isnt realy an issue as any spanner monkey can service a kent/x/flow/pinto/cologne/essex engine and fords/vauxhalls are very simple to work on even if you only have a basic knowledge of engines,a haynes manual and a socket set.
also older fords and vauxhalls dont have complicated warning systems to worry about(unless you go for a granada or a senator),they dont have acres of wiring to sort through when it goes wrong and even the fact that they are carbed stops you having to try to sort out a problem with knackered injectors,electronic fuel pumps or the throttle butterfly on a fuel injection system that wont open in its 3rd (fully open) position,if your carb knacks up it'll cost you a tenner to replace (even the twin-choke's),you dont have to worry about electric windows packing up for no reason or the speedo sometimes deciding not to work (as the speedo's are cable driven,not electronic).....even the fact that rwd fords have direct linkages on their boxes eliminates the need to change the nylon rubbers in the selector like on an e30 gearshift because it wont select 2nd gear without you literally getting into the back(price of this is nearly £400 at bmw alone!) if you knacker a box on a ford it'll cost about £20-30 for a 5-speed type 9,you can get 4-speeds for literally nothing as people dont want them.
the audi 5-pot is a great engine and sounds great when being floored but ive never heard of someone who is young getting a cheap insurance quote for one.....plus if it does go realy wrong your looking at v.a.g prices.....unless you go to g.s and f,even then your not garenteed they will have the right part,or even be able to get it (like the center section for my bmw's exhaust system that they no longer stock).
>> Edited by cortinaman on Monday 25th October 04:28
classic cars are mostly owned by people who know one end of a spanner from another so taking the car to a dealer for a service isnt realy an issue as any spanner monkey can service a kent/x/flow/pinto/cologne/essex engine and fords/vauxhalls are very simple to work on even if you only have a basic knowledge of engines,a haynes manual and a socket set.
also older fords and vauxhalls dont have complicated warning systems to worry about(unless you go for a granada or a senator),they dont have acres of wiring to sort through when it goes wrong and even the fact that they are carbed stops you having to try to sort out a problem with knackered injectors,electronic fuel pumps or the throttle butterfly on a fuel injection system that wont open in its 3rd (fully open) position,if your carb knacks up it'll cost you a tenner to replace (even the twin-choke's),you dont have to worry about electric windows packing up for no reason or the speedo sometimes deciding not to work (as the speedo's are cable driven,not electronic).....even the fact that rwd fords have direct linkages on their boxes eliminates the need to change the nylon rubbers in the selector like on an e30 gearshift because it wont select 2nd gear without you literally getting into the back(price of this is nearly £400 at bmw alone!) if you knacker a box on a ford it'll cost about £20-30 for a 5-speed type 9,you can get 4-speeds for literally nothing as people dont want them.
the audi 5-pot is a great engine and sounds great when being floored but ive never heard of someone who is young getting a cheap insurance quote for one.....plus if it does go realy wrong your looking at v.a.g prices.....unless you go to g.s and f,even then your not garenteed they will have the right part,or even be able to get it (like the center section for my bmw's exhaust system that they no longer stock).
>> Edited by cortinaman on Monday 25th October 04:28
Pigeon said:
I'd expect low to mid 20s myself. Not too bad for a carburetted 3-litre really.
The problem that Scimitars do tend to suffer from is overheating, as do a lot of cars with the 3-litre Ford V6. I believe there are cooling system upgrades available these days.
This sort of thing seems to be true of most of the more popular classics - the gremlins that bugged them in production have been sorted by aftermarket developers, and the chances are that if the car's still going (and hasn't spent all its time under wraps in a garage) the relevant tweaks have been fitted. Stag engines are not the nightmare that they used to be!
The other problem with Scimitars are the electrics. Dodgy earths and jump leads become you're constant companions. You won't believe how morale sapping it is until you live with it.
At the risk of sounding defensive, Scimitars score big on simplicity over most 60's/70's machines: no vulnerable alloy heads or blocks, no first-generation electronics: they also do not rust - I cannot imagine putting up with a steel-bodied 'classic' again.
Scimitars overheat because their cross-flow radiators silt up, the electric rad fan is inefficient - not ducted at all - and draws a lot of current through primitive electrics: fixing is easy, unless you think £80 for a re-cored rad is out of order, and provided you can stretch to a decent Pacet-type fan.
As with many GRP cars they also suffer from tedious and repetitive electrical problems, exascerbated by poor design and Lucas componentry...however, as with so many 'classics', they are very simple, and provided you can read a circuit diagram and believe that the soldering iron and bullet connectors are your friends, whereas the Scotchlok and crimper are the devil's work then fixing is easy.
Less straightforward but still perfectly within the grasp of the diy spannerman are the over-stretched TR6 front suspension components, but the biggest problems always arise because owners run scared of the cost of replacing parts, preferring to 'recondition' - usually with nothing more sophisticated than a paintbrush - and expecting to get the same results.
Clearing up after previous owners is almost always the biggest headache with any classic - and driving a 'good one' so you have some idea of what you are working towards and whether or not it's worth the hassle is almost always something people contemplating running one forget to do.
Scimitars overheat because their cross-flow radiators silt up, the electric rad fan is inefficient - not ducted at all - and draws a lot of current through primitive electrics: fixing is easy, unless you think £80 for a re-cored rad is out of order, and provided you can stretch to a decent Pacet-type fan.
As with many GRP cars they also suffer from tedious and repetitive electrical problems, exascerbated by poor design and Lucas componentry...however, as with so many 'classics', they are very simple, and provided you can read a circuit diagram and believe that the soldering iron and bullet connectors are your friends, whereas the Scotchlok and crimper are the devil's work then fixing is easy.
Less straightforward but still perfectly within the grasp of the diy spannerman are the over-stretched TR6 front suspension components, but the biggest problems always arise because owners run scared of the cost of replacing parts, preferring to 'recondition' - usually with nothing more sophisticated than a paintbrush - and expecting to get the same results.
Clearing up after previous owners is almost always the biggest headache with any classic - and driving a 'good one' so you have some idea of what you are working towards and whether or not it's worth the hassle is almost always something people contemplating running one forget to do.
Soldering up the bullet connectors on the TR6 was one of the most satisfying parts of the restoration...
yertis said:
TR looks nice - how're your trunnions?
Three years old, attached to brand new vertical links, and very well lubed with grease (not EP90) thank-you very much.
How are your Watt's Linkage bushes?
I tell you, my spingle pin's been giving me gyp!
Must be this damp weather!!
yertis said:
TR looks nice - how're your trunnions?
Three years old, attached to brand new vertical links, and very well lubed with grease (not EP90) thank-you very much.
How are your Watt's Linkage bushes?
I find CV joint grease does the job well in the trunnion department, took me more than one go to learn to build the bu44ers up properly though.
Watt linkage bushes are happy, smiling and a particularly yellow shade of polyurethane - on the odd occasion that they're not covered in diff oil.
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