Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
isaldiri said:
MC Bodge said:
This sort of thing is quite amusing to read.
Throwing huge sums of money at your children's education is just not necessary. How much tutoring do PHers' children really need?
It must quickly become a case of diminishing returns. amongst my wider social circle, the wealthiest people were not privately educated, although material wealth is not that important once a fairly modest level is reached anyway <hangs head in shame for un-PH opinion>
State schools are not the universally terrible places that some may think either. My nephew is a bright lad and his school will be assisting him with preparation for university.
Many state schools have a good range of extra-curricular activities too and organisations such as Scouts or cadets can give more opportunities and experiences to young people.
Whether or not tutoring is necessary or really needed doesn't change the fact that quite a lot of people do it (not just here but around the world) and it clearly is quite a common thing for many parents to attempt to provide a leg up to their children and unless you change human nature, that's likely to continue for all eternity. Throwing huge sums of money at your children's education is just not necessary. How much tutoring do PHers' children really need?
It must quickly become a case of diminishing returns. amongst my wider social circle, the wealthiest people were not privately educated, although material wealth is not that important once a fairly modest level is reached anyway <hangs head in shame for un-PH opinion>
State schools are not the universally terrible places that some may think either. My nephew is a bright lad and his school will be assisting him with preparation for university.
Many state schools have a good range of extra-curricular activities too and organisations such as Scouts or cadets can give more opportunities and experiences to young people.
And it doesn't change that the VAT is being tacked on by Starmer mainly to placate part of his party and it will be very unlikely to result in any meaningful change in either revenue raised or school elitism. And also given that therefore that the next target if/when required should therefore also then be private tutoring.
Wombat3 said:
It was that or series 3 of Bridgerton and it took very little time to realise it was all estimates, assumptions and waffle. I was quite surprised you leaned so heavily on it - but perhaps you didn't actually read it ?
I'm going to spare the assembled company a piece by piece dismantling of your attack-dog , green eyed monster , socialist waffle (because that's what it is).
The main issue that's relevant to this thread is that if this is what Labour consider to be a front & centre policy idea & if this is an example of the best we have to look forward to then its risible for all the reasons that have been clearly spelled out - which have nothing to do with "preserving engines of discrimination" .
Its just a case of calling it out for what it is: Stupid f
kwittery,
I like that you called me smug last night & now an attack dog, green eyed & a socialist waffle whatever one of those is. The mask always slips with you old boys, it's always only a matter of time.I'm going to spare the assembled company a piece by piece dismantling of your attack-dog , green eyed monster , socialist waffle (because that's what it is).
The main issue that's relevant to this thread is that if this is what Labour consider to be a front & centre policy idea & if this is an example of the best we have to look forward to then its risible for all the reasons that have been clearly spelled out - which have nothing to do with "preserving engines of discrimination" .
Its just a case of calling it out for what it is: Stupid f
kwittery,The rest of your ranting is just the usual Wombat 3,4,5 & 6 skipping record. Maybe you should take the dog for a walk, get an ice cream, listen to The Archers, generally take a pill.
President Merkin said:
Wombat3 said:
It was that or series 3 of Bridgerton and it took very little time to realise it was all estimates, assumptions and waffle. I was quite surprised you leaned so heavily on it - but perhaps you didn't actually read it ?
I'm going to spare the assembled company a piece by piece dismantling of your attack-dog , green eyed monster , socialist waffle (because that's what it is).
The main issue that's relevant to this thread is that if this is what Labour consider to be a front & centre policy idea & if this is an example of the best we have to look forward to then its risible for all the reasons that have been clearly spelled out - which have nothing to do with "preserving engines of discrimination" .
Its just a case of calling it out for what it is: Stupid fkwittery,
I like that you called me smug last night & now an attack dog, green eyed & a socialist waffle whatever one of those is. The mask always slips with you old boys, it's always only a matter of time.I'm going to spare the assembled company a piece by piece dismantling of your attack-dog , green eyed monster , socialist waffle (because that's what it is).
The main issue that's relevant to this thread is that if this is what Labour consider to be a front & centre policy idea & if this is an example of the best we have to look forward to then its risible for all the reasons that have been clearly spelled out - which have nothing to do with "preserving engines of discrimination" .
Its just a case of calling it out for what it is: Stupid f
kwittery,The rest of your ranting is just the usual Wombat 3,4,5 & 6 skipping record. Maybe you should take the dog for a walk, get an ice cream, listen to The Archers, generally take a pill.
Wombat3 said:
President Merkin said:
Combing through an IFS report at 11pm on a Thursday night belies your prior assertion that you don't have a dog in the fight, wouldn't you agree?
It was that or series 3 of Bridgerton and it took very little time to realise it was all estimates, assumptions and waffle. I was quite surprised you leaned so heavily on it - but perhaps you didn't actually read it ?I'm going to spare the assembled company a piece by piece dismantling of your attack-dog , green eyed monster , socialist waffle (because that's what it is).
The main issue that's relevant to this thread is that if this is what Labour consider to be a front & centre policy idea & if this is an example of the best we have to look forward to then its risible for all the reasons that have been clearly spelled out - which have nothing to do with "preserving engines of discrimination" .
Its just a case of calling it out for what it is: Stupid f
kwittery,Tom8 said:
They also contain children called "Jayden" "Kayden" "Dayden" (insert any consonant you like) and parents in white range rovers with tattoos.
Ahhh, so that's what it is.You'd rather your offspring mix with the Tarquin's and Jemima's instead. It's f
k all to do with education standards and those that struggle to pay but keeping away from the riff raff that will be fixing their bogs later on in life.It's just about keeping that class divide in place, isn't it?
Wombat3 said:
Standard ad-hom stuff from you. What a pleasant fellow you are!
There is not a single insult anywhere in my post, I go out of my way to not do it, This is what I find so laughable about you guys. you lob them all day long & then accuse the other guy of doing it. Projection much? Certainly an obvious fragility. Anyway, I've said all I'm going to on this, if things carry on the way they're going then time's up for your hand wringing anyway.Tom8 said:
119 said:
MC Bodge said:
This sort of thing is quite amusing to read.
Throwing huge sums of money at your children's education is just not necessary. How much tutoring do PHers' children really need?
It must quickly become a case of diminishing returns. amongst my wider social circle, the wealthiest people were not privately educated, although material wealth is not that important once a fairly modest level is reached anyway <hangs head in shame for un-PH opinion>
State schools are not the universally terrible places that some may think either. My nephew is a bright lad and his school will be assisting him with preparation for university.
Many state schools have a good range of extra-curricular activities too and organisations such as Scouts or cadets can give more opportunities and experiences to young people.
Not everyone has an high performing school in their area.Throwing huge sums of money at your children's education is just not necessary. How much tutoring do PHers' children really need?
It must quickly become a case of diminishing returns. amongst my wider social circle, the wealthiest people were not privately educated, although material wealth is not that important once a fairly modest level is reached anyway <hangs head in shame for un-PH opinion>
State schools are not the universally terrible places that some may think either. My nephew is a bright lad and his school will be assisting him with preparation for university.
Many state schools have a good range of extra-curricular activities too and organisations such as Scouts or cadets can give more opportunities and experiences to young people.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 17th May 11:46
President Merkin said:
There is not a single insult anywhere in my post, I go out of my way to not do it, This is what I find so laughable about you guys. you lob them all day long & then accuse the other guy of doing it. Projection much? Certainly an obvious fragility. Anyway, I've said all I'm going to on this, if things carry on the way they're going then time's up for your hand wringing anyway.
He said ad-hom, not insult.President Merkin said:
There is not a single insult anywhere in my post, I go out of my way to not do it, This is what I find so laughable about you guys. you lob them all day long & then accuse the other guy of doing it. Projection much? Certainly an obvious fragility. Anyway, I've said all I'm going to on this, if things carry on the way they're going then time's up for your hand wringing anyway.
Here are some of your posts on this thread over the last couple of days. People in glass houses should not throw stones.President Merkin said:
Maybe you do see reasons after all & disingenuous behaviour is stock in trade for your average right winger.
President Merkin said:
That would be lefties, not lefty's. Can see how your education went. Amazing this place, you wait ages for an idiot & then three turn up at once,
President Merkin said:
As ever with you, the slipperiness is off the charts.
President Merkin said:
Talking of stupid fkwittery, Mr Magoo, they're not my figures. As it happens, I went out of my way to credit them. This tells me two things: You don't process information very well & therefore are an unreliable correspondent and you lean on your beliefs so heavily, you become...an unreliable correspondent. Classic right wing, don't like something credibly sourced, pour scorn all over it, You old birds are just too easy.
kwittery, Mr Magoo, they're not my figures. As it happens, I went out of my way to credit them. This tells me two things: You don't process information very well & therefore are an unreliable correspondent and you lean on your beliefs so heavily, you become...an unreliable correspondent. Classic right wing, don't like something credibly sourced, pour scorn all over it, You old birds are just too easy.President Merkin said:
The rest of your ranting is just the usual Wombat 3,4,5 & 6 skipping record. Maybe you should take the dog for a walk, get an ice cream, listen to The Archers, generally take a pill.
President Merkin said:
"Our best judgement is that it would be reasonable to assume that an effective VAT rate of 15% would lead to a 3–7% reduction in private school attendance. This would likely generate a need for about £100–300 million in extra school spending per year in the medium to long run."
Take it for what it is, and I think I've mentioned it before, but my left-leaning wife is very much embedded in this data as a consultant for a number of institutions both public and otherwise. Her view (and others in the field) does not align with that comment from the IFS. :Cough: Said consultants may be engaging with the 'parties' that matter.119 said:
Cobracc said:
Wombat3 said:
I have no dog in the PE fight any more President Smug. Just happy to call out stupid fkwittery when I see it.
Your figures are questionable to be polite about it.
Having been a fee payer I can guarantee that more than 3-7% of parents paying fees will not survive a 20% increase. Beyond that parents are already making decisions about whether they even start in the sector (thus damaging the next intake), or indeed whether they continue beyond the next natural break. It is also well documented that roughly 10% is the tipping point for a lot of smaller schools. The ramifications of school closures affect all pupils in those schools.
This is a domino topple that will rapidly escalate, get out of control and go far beyond what the short sighted dimwits in the Labour Party can evidently even conceive of.
As above, I have no personal interest in this, if it was a good idea from a point of revenue or educational standards it would be very difficult to justify an argument against it. Instead it's just what it says on the tin, the ill thought out politics of envy and the effects will be irreversible.
Why don't they just work harder or get a better job...?kwittery when I see it. Your figures are questionable to be polite about it.
Having been a fee payer I can guarantee that more than 3-7% of parents paying fees will not survive a 20% increase. Beyond that parents are already making decisions about whether they even start in the sector (thus damaging the next intake), or indeed whether they continue beyond the next natural break. It is also well documented that roughly 10% is the tipping point for a lot of smaller schools. The ramifications of school closures affect all pupils in those schools.
This is a domino topple that will rapidly escalate, get out of control and go far beyond what the short sighted dimwits in the Labour Party can evidently even conceive of.
As above, I have no personal interest in this, if it was a good idea from a point of revenue or educational standards it would be very difficult to justify an argument against it. Instead it's just what it says on the tin, the ill thought out politics of envy and the effects will be irreversible.
MaxFromage said:
Take it for what it is, and I think I've mentioned it before, but my left-leaning wife is very much embedded in this data as a consultant for a number of institutions both public and otherwise. Her view (and others in the field) does not align with that comment from the IFS. :Cough: Said consultants may be engaging with the 'parties' that matter.
The IFS also assume that the VAT not spent by parents moving to the state system will be spent on other things so VAT will be spent elsewhere but a lot of it will be spent on foreign holidays (no UK VAT), put into savings/pensions/ISAs (no VAT) or simply even not working a second job or getting a less stressful job / working fewer hours (no VAT but also no income tax at higher rates).https://listentotaxman.com/?year=2024&taxregio... - £70k salary brings in £18.8k in deductions + £8.4k in employers NI
https://listentotaxman.com/?year=2024&taxregio... - £60k salary brings in £14.6k in deductions + £7k in employers NI
That £10k salary drop for a less stressful job means £6k less to the employee but £5600 less to the taxman as well as not getting the VAT from the school or anything else. The £5600 goes up to £7600 if the employee earns above £100k.
valiant said:
Tom8 said:
They also contain children called "Jayden" "Kayden" "Dayden" (insert any consonant you like) and parents in white range rovers with tattoos.
Ahhh, so that's what it is.You'd rather your offspring mix with the Tarquin's and Jemima's instead. It's f
k all to do with education standards and those that struggle to pay but keeping away from the riff raff that will be fixing their bogs later on in life.It's just about keeping that class divide in place, isn't it?
Mr Penguin said:
Some other things that the Finns do (which private schools here do):
Small class sizes
Teaching is respected profession so you get the best candidates
A culture of learning at home as well as at school (compare to England where a quarter of children entering school are not potty trained and a fifth of parents think it isn't their job to do it https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pr...
On the claim that Finland have the best education system: In the 2022 PISA rankings, the UK was ahead of Finland in reading and maths (but behind in science).
In fairness, compulsory education in Finland doesn’t start until age 7, so they’ve two more years than us to get their kids potty trained. Small class sizes
Teaching is respected profession so you get the best candidates
A culture of learning at home as well as at school (compare to England where a quarter of children entering school are not potty trained and a fifth of parents think it isn't their job to do it https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pr...
On the claim that Finland have the best education system: In the 2022 PISA rankings, the UK was ahead of Finland in reading and maths (but behind in science).
Cobracc said:
119 said:
Cobracc said:
Wombat3 said:
I have no dog in the PE fight any more President Smug. Just happy to call out stupid fkwittery when I see it.
Your figures are questionable to be polite about it.
Having been a fee payer I can guarantee that more than 3-7% of parents paying fees will not survive a 20% increase. Beyond that parents are already making decisions about whether they even start in the sector (thus damaging the next intake), or indeed whether they continue beyond the next natural break. It is also well documented that roughly 10% is the tipping point for a lot of smaller schools. The ramifications of school closures affect all pupils in those schools.
This is a domino topple that will rapidly escalate, get out of control and go far beyond what the short sighted dimwits in the Labour Party can evidently even conceive of.
As above, I have no personal interest in this, if it was a good idea from a point of revenue or educational standards it would be very difficult to justify an argument against it. Instead it's just what it says on the tin, the ill thought out politics of envy and the effects will be irreversible.
Why don't they just work harder or get a better job...?kwittery when I see it. Your figures are questionable to be polite about it.
Having been a fee payer I can guarantee that more than 3-7% of parents paying fees will not survive a 20% increase. Beyond that parents are already making decisions about whether they even start in the sector (thus damaging the next intake), or indeed whether they continue beyond the next natural break. It is also well documented that roughly 10% is the tipping point for a lot of smaller schools. The ramifications of school closures affect all pupils in those schools.
This is a domino topple that will rapidly escalate, get out of control and go far beyond what the short sighted dimwits in the Labour Party can evidently even conceive of.
As above, I have no personal interest in this, if it was a good idea from a point of revenue or educational standards it would be very difficult to justify an argument against it. Instead it's just what it says on the tin, the ill thought out politics of envy and the effects will be irreversible.
The talk about VAT is a red herring. This isn’t about punitive charges on a group, but about private schools, for many years, abusing laws on charitable status. Many educational institutions, including subsidiaries of universities offering things like EMBAs, have to charge VAT, as they are not offering education for the public good. Private schools have been given many years, and many warnings, to get their houses in order to offer genuine public good, but have not done so.
Instead they have done things like offering the local state school use of their pool a few hours a week (as long as it’s not needed by the school) or things like this:
https://metro.co.uk/2022/11/20/eton-students-were-...
This is simply about applying the rules consistently. The same rules other educational institutions have to play by, but for a long time private schools have avoided.
Instead they have done things like offering the local state school use of their pool a few hours a week (as long as it’s not needed by the school) or things like this:
https://metro.co.uk/2022/11/20/eton-students-were-...
This is simply about applying the rules consistently. The same rules other educational institutions have to play by, but for a long time private schools have avoided.
Tom8 said:
valiant said:
Tom8 said:
They also contain children called "Jayden" "Kayden" "Dayden" (insert any consonant you like) and parents in white range rovers with tattoos.
Ahhh, so that's what it is.You'd rather your offspring mix with the Tarquin's and Jemima's instead. It's f
k all to do with education standards and those that struggle to pay but keeping away from the riff raff that will be fixing their bogs later on in life.It's just about keeping that class divide in place, isn't it?
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