Now Gordon wants your organs

Author
Discussion

FunkyNige

8,929 posts

277 months

Tuesday 18th November 2008
quotequote all
Can't think of anything more selfish than not donating organs personally, and I'm quite surprised by the number of people on here saying 'I don't want someone to live after I've gone because it's a bit icky'.

King Herald

23,501 posts

218 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
Nick_F said:
I give blood.

I have a donor card.

I give to charity.

But I do all of these things because I choose to.

Replace the £x that I give to charity with y% on my income tax to save me the trouble of actively donating and I'd be very cross.
I'd give blood too, but being pierced, having loads of tattoos, and having slept with hundreds of hookers I wouldn't even be allowed through the front door. nono

Scraggles

7,619 posts

226 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
used to give blood too, had this gold card for giving so much of the stuff, then they noticed some drugs in my blood and was told it was the drugs or giving blood. Decided to stick with the drugs smile

Got a doner card some place as well, organs not much use to me when dead..

NEAKY

170 posts

210 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
thinfourth2 said:
NEAKY said:
People amaze me on this subject because most people don't sign up to the donor register but would expect a replacement organ should something happen to theirs.
Also most people don't spare the time to donate blood but again would expect blood to be there should they need it in an emergency situation.
I find it highly arrogant of these people that they expect to receive what they aren't willing to give !!!
Because it will never happen to me will it

As to the organ card i haven't signed up as i'm not planning on dying anytime soon
Why exactly will it never happen to you , are you a psychic !!
Does anyone (apart from a rare few crazy people) actually plan to die ?
A lot of donors come from people who suffer brain stem damage which coincidentally happens a lot in road traffic accidents , now being on a forum frequented by car/bike enthusiasts then i would think that its something that could happen to all of us be it our fault or some other careless driver.

NEAKY

170 posts

210 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
NWTony said:
NEAKY said:
Its obvious that anyone who objects to "presumed consent" has never known anyone who is or has been on the transplant waiting list.
Both my little boys have been on the list waiting for organs to save their lives ( the youngest was 1 and the eldest 4 at the time ) and the wait for organs is terrifying because if you don't get a suitable donor in time you know that your child will die !!
When you finally get the call and they have the transplant that will save their life its the most amazing thing ever.
Most people would donate but don't register or carry a card so this way is a far better system to cut the waiting time down.
If someone has an strong objection to this then its up to them to opt out of donating , its as simple as that.
All these people who wouldn't donate would expect an organ to be found for them if something happened to them i would presume !!
I don't mean to upset you but I'm going to I'm afraid. Your two boys needed a (kidney?) transplant which they were lucky enough to receive and I'm genuinely pleased they have, even though I don't know you from Adam. However those kidneys came from the body of a small child who has died, whose parents, in a time of great grief and hardship, took the decision to give there dying child's organs so that others may live. It appears from what you are saying is that you now presume you have a right to those organs, that there is something fundemental that means that your had a right to receive the organs from that other dead child.

The act of donating organs (and I carry a card myself) should always be a truly voluntary one, take away that choice, presume consent and you reduce the value of the act of donation. If you aren't given the choice of a right or wrong thing to do, there can be no merit in doing the right thing.

Again, this isn't meant to be offensive to you and I can understand your strong feelings, given your situation.
You really are missing the point here , and you haven't got the ability to upset me lol , one of my boys needed a liver and kidney which came from a 30 year old welsh woman , the other needed 2 livers (first didn't work) the second came from a 34 year old irish man.
Now we are eternally grateful to the donors and their families who kindly donated their organs willingly.
The point i am raising is that until you are in the situation of waiting for organs to save your childs life then you will never fully understand what its like and how you will feel.
I would happily have given my organs to save my boys and we were on the brink of going to Belgium to do this before a donor became available.
Believe me you could not care less where these organs come from so long as they come in time to save your childs life , i would challenge anyone to think differently in our position !!
Seeing our boys leading a normal life is justification of anything that has happened beforehand !!

NEAKY

170 posts

210 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
swerni said:
NEAKY said:
NWTony said:
NEAKY said:
Its obvious that anyone who objects to "presumed consent" has never known anyone who is or has been on the transplant waiting list.
Both my little boys have been on the list waiting for organs to save their lives ( the youngest was 1 and the eldest 4 at the time ) and the wait for organs is terrifying because if you don't get a suitable donor in time you know that your child will die !!
When you finally get the call and they have the transplant that will save their life its the most amazing thing ever.
Most people would donate but don't register or carry a card so this way is a far better system to cut the waiting time down.
If someone has an strong objection to this then its up to them to opt out of donating , its as simple as that.
All these people who wouldn't donate would expect an organ to be found for them if something happened to them i would presume !!
I don't mean to upset you but I'm going to I'm afraid. Your two boys needed a (kidney?) transplant which they were lucky enough to receive and I'm genuinely pleased they have, even though I don't know you from Adam. However those kidneys came from the body of a small child who has died, whose parents, in a time of great grief and hardship, took the decision to give there dying child's organs so that others may live. It appears from what you are saying is that you now presume you have a right to those organs, that there is something fundemental that means that your had a right to receive the organs from that other dead child.

The act of donating organs (and I carry a card myself) should always be a truly voluntary one, take away that choice, presume consent and you reduce the value of the act of donation. If you aren't given the choice of a right or wrong thing to do, there can be no merit in doing the right thing.

Again, this isn't meant to be offensive to you and I can understand your strong feelings, given your situation.
You really are missing the point here , and you haven't got the ability to upset me lol , one of my boys needed a liver and kidney which came from a 30 year old welsh woman , the other needed 2 livers (first didn't work) the second came from a 34 year old irish man.
Now we are eternally grateful to the donors and their families who kindly donated their organs willingly.
The point i am raising is that until you are in the situation of waiting for organs to save your childs life then you will never fully understand what its like and how you will feel.
I would happily have given my organs to save my boys and we were on the brink of going to Belgium to do this before a donor became available.
Believe me you could not care less where these organs come from so long as they come in time to save your childs life , i would challenge anyone to think differently in our position !!
Seeing our boys leading a normal life is justification of anything that has happened beforehand !!
I know what you are saying, but welsh! wink
Yeah i know lol , i tell myself that she was an english woman just out for a drive in Wales !!

mark69sheer

3,906 posts

204 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
NEAKY said:
NWTony said:
NEAKY said:
Its obvious that anyone who objects to "presumed consent" has never known anyone who is or has been on the transplant waiting list.
Both my little boys have been on the list waiting for organs to save their lives ( the youngest was 1 and the eldest 4 at the time ) and the wait for organs is terrifying because if you don't get a suitable donor in time you know that your child will die !!
When you finally get the call and they have the transplant that will save their life its the most amazing thing ever.
Most people would donate but don't register or carry a card so this way is a far better system to cut the waiting time down.
If someone has an strong objection to this then its up to them to opt out of donating , its as simple as that.
All these people who wouldn't donate would expect an organ to be found for them if something happened to them i would presume !!
I don't mean to upset you but I'm going to I'm afraid. Your two boys needed a (kidney?) transplant which they were lucky enough to receive and I'm genuinely pleased they have, even though I don't know you from Adam. However those kidneys came from the body of a small child who has died, whose parents, in a time of great grief and hardship, took the decision to give there dying child's organs so that others may live. It appears from what you are saying is that you now presume you have a right to those organs, that there is something fundemental that means that your had a right to receive the organs from that other dead child.

The act of donating organs (and I carry a card myself) should always be a truly voluntary one, take away that choice, presume consent and you reduce the value of the act of donation. If you aren't given the choice of a right or wrong thing to do, there can be no merit in doing the right thing.

Again, this isn't meant to be offensive to you and I can understand your strong feelings, given your situation.
You really are missing the point here , and you haven't got the ability to upset me lol , one of my boys needed a liver and kidney which came from a 30 year old welsh woman , the other needed 2 livers (first didn't work) the second came from a 34 year old irish man.
Now we are eternally grateful to the donors and their families who kindly donated their organs willingly.
The point i am raising is that until you are in the situation of waiting for organs to save your childs life then you will never fully understand what its like and how you will feel.
I would happily have given my organs to save my boys and we were on the brink of going to Belgium to do this before a donor became available.
Believe me you could not care less where these organs come from so long as they come in time to save your childs life , i would challenge anyone to think differently in our position !!
Seeing our boys leading a normal life is justification of anything that has happened beforehand !!
Yours is a heartwarming story Neaky. Did you know wether the donors were registered donors or wether as you say permission was given by the families. If it was the relatives who gave permission and the deceased weren't registered donors then there is proof the current system works.
I think basically the problem is noone trusts this governments word. If people who opted out could be assured their wishes were adhered to then the opt out system would be fine. If however there is some doubt and that you feel that your organs will still be taken because the database was wrong or someone didn't check properly (oops!) then there will always be resistance to an opt out system. Remember the Lisbon Treaty and the supposed referendum?
I feel for you in your position and you are right anyone in your position would feel exactly the same , perhaps as said it is a personal agenda for Mr Brown having had a son with cystic fibrosis.
What I do know is you cannot just blithely label people selfish for not being donors.
I myself have given blood but have never had a donor card. The reason being ironically that I have always competed in dangerous sports or done dangerous activities. I was scared that having a donor card would give someone an option not to try their best for me if I ever suffered severe injuries.
It was probably an irrational fear but in todays NHS one that I would consider more valid.I don't know wether they would consider my organs now at 49 but who knows I have lead a healthy life and am not on medication or in danger of heart attack etc. The other problem is actually now my wife who is a Catholic and has intense thoughts about respect for the dead. I will allow her to make the decision when I am gone. She is a good person and I am sure given a chance to help others she would make the right choice. I could not however make that assumption for her.
The option to donate is not as straightforward as you are making out by simply branding non donors selfish.
There is currently a 50/50 split between eligible adults who can make the choice wether to be donors or not and I suspect that is somewhere round about the level you would expect.

Chrispy Porker

16,966 posts

230 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
I didn't realise that Catholicism was a reason not to donate organs.
Is this the case?

mark69sheer

3,906 posts

204 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
Chrispy Porker said:
I didn't realise that Catholicism was a reason not to donate organs.
Is this the case?
No it is not the case. Its my wife's views based on her religious upbringing but not on the views of the Catholic Church itself. She loves me and it would upset her if organs were taken. She would find it disrespectful. That's her view. She always comments on programmes where dead bodies are treated with less than the same dignity a live one is.

I suspect Jehovas Witnesses would be against being donors from a religious point of view.

Edited by mark69sheer on Wednesday 19th November 09:28

Chrispy Porker

16,966 posts

230 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
mark69sheer said:
Chrispy Porker said:
I didn't realise that Catholicism was a reason not to donate organs.
Is this the case?
No it is not the case. Its my wife's views based on her religious upbringing but not on the views of the Catholic Church itself. She loves me and it would upset her if organs were taken. She would find it disrespectful. That's her view. She always comments on programmes where dead bodies are treated with less than the same dignity a live one is.
OK fair enough
I was just wondering as the news today is full of a Spanish lady who has had a new windpipe fitted.

NEAKY

170 posts

210 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
mark69sheer said:
Yours is a heartwarming story Neaky. Did you know wether the donors were registered donors or wether as you say permission was given by the families. If it was the relatives who gave permission and the deceased weren't registered donors then there is proof the current system works.
I think basically the problem is noone trusts this governments word. If people who opted out could be assured their wishes were adhered to then the opt out system would be fine. If however there is some doubt and that you feel that your organs will still be taken because the database was wrong or someone didn't check properly (oops!) then there will always be resistance to an opt out system. Remember the Lisbon Treaty and the supposed referendum?
I feel for you in your position and you are right anyone in your position would feel exactly the same , perhaps as said it is a personal agenda for Mr Brown having had a son with cystic fibrosis.
What I do know is you cannot just blithely label people selfish for not being donors.
I myself have given blood but have never had a donor card. The reason being ironically that I have always competed in dangerous sports or done dangerous activities. I was scared that having a donor card would give someone an option not to try their best for me if I ever suffered severe injuries.
It was probably an irrational fear but in todays NHS one that I would consider more valid.I don't know wether they would consider my organs now at 49 but who knows I have lead a healthy life and am not on medication or in danger of heart attack etc. The other problem is actually now my wife who is a Catholic and has intense thoughts about respect for the dead. I will allow her to make the decision when I am gone. She is a good person and I am sure given a chance to help others she would make the right choice. I could not however make that assumption for her.
The option to donate is not as straightforward as you are making out by simply branding non donors selfish.
There is currently a 50/50 split between eligible adults who can make the choice wether to be donors or not and I suspect that is somewhere round about the level you would expect.
I have never branded non donors selfish , what i have said is that people expect blood/organs to be there if they need them even if they don't donate themselves , i actually called them arrogant !!

scorp

8,783 posts

231 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
NEAKY said:
I have never branded non donors selfish , what i have said is that people expect blood/organs to be there if they need them even if they don't donate themselves , i actually called them arrogant !!
Depends on the reason i guess, when the government wades in and stakes a claim on your body after you leave it then i can see why some people might opt-out out of principle.

NEAKY

170 posts

210 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
scorp said:
NEAKY said:
I have never branded non donors selfish , what i have said is that people expect blood/organs to be there if they need them even if they don't donate themselves , i actually called them arrogant !!
Depends on the reason i guess, when the government wades in and stakes a claim on your body after you leave it then i can see why some people might opt-out out of principle.
I have no problem with people opting out for whatever reason , that is their choice but they should not be allowed to be put on the waiting list for a donor organ should they require one if they aren't willing to donate themself.
The thing is that i know lots of people who aren't on the donor register but have no objections to donating so in this case the presumed consent would work.
If you opt out then you are still exactly where you are now in relation to donating so that should keep them happy !!

mark69sheer

3,906 posts

204 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
Neaky I don't think your view is helping.
The major sticking point the research came up with was that people who carried donor cards did so because they got satisfaction out of the idea of doing something good off their own bat.

Your reference to non donor card carriers as 'arrogant' and 'them' or should be dissallowed transplants themselves is hardly going to warm people to being presumed to do anything.

Were you yourself a donor card carrier before your sons were diagnosed?


scorp

8,783 posts

231 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
NEAKY said:
I have no problem with people opting out for whatever reason , that is their choice but they should not be allowed to be put on the waiting list for a donor organ should they require one if they aren't willing to donate themself.
The thing is that i know lots of people who aren't on the donor register but have no objections to donating so in this case the presumed consent would work.
If you opt out then you are still exactly where you are now in relation to donating so that should keep them happy !!
By default i give no consent for anything, the whole concept of presuming consent, to me, is wrong. What's more i couldn't care less if a bunch of people think it's a good idea, my consent is not theirs to take. I won't be the only one who objects out-of-principle, regardless of any positive views they might have had in regards to organ donation.


NEAKY

170 posts

210 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
mark69sheer said:
Neaky I don't think your view is helping.
The major sticking point the research came up with was that people who carried donor cards did so because they got satisfaction out of the idea of doing something good off their own bat.

Your reference to non donor card carriers as 'arrogant' and 'them' or should be dissallowed transplants themselves is hardly going to warm people to being presumed to do anything.

Were you yourself a donor card carrier before your sons were diagnosed?
Yes i had a donor card and gave blood !
Tell me why you should be allowed to get a donor organ if you aren't willing to donate yourself , hardly seems fair does it ?
Again the point is if you don't want to donate you can OPT OUT its remarkably simple.
My view is one of someone who has been through the transplant system which i would say is very relevant don't you !!

NEAKY

170 posts

210 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
scorp said:
NEAKY said:
I have no problem with people opting out for whatever reason , that is their choice but they should not be allowed to be put on the waiting list for a donor organ should they require one if they aren't willing to donate themself.
The thing is that i know lots of people who aren't on the donor register but have no objections to donating so in this case the presumed consent would work.
If you opt out then you are still exactly where you are now in relation to donating so that should keep them happy !!
By default i give no consent for anything, the whole concept of presuming consent, to me, is wrong. What's more i couldn't care less if a bunch of people think it's a good idea, my consent is not theirs to take. I won't be the only one who objects out-of-principle, regardless of any positive views they might have had in regards to organ donation.
OPT OUT if you feel strongly about it , the concept is simplicity itself

meandmeandme

28 posts

187 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
I believe that everyone should be on the doner list...after all they can still opt out. I don't believe children should be on it though as i think that should be a decision down to the parents at the time, that must be a horrendous decision to have to make. I hope i will never have to make that decision but at the same time, if faced with that decision i'd hope to make the right one...but who can say they would when faced with the death of a child.

scorp

8,783 posts

231 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
NEAKY said:
OPT OUT if you feel strongly about it , the concept is simplicity itself
Quite sad really, given some spare time and a small amount of inclination i would be happy to give blood or whatever, now it seems i will have my hand forced into refusing out of principle, nice one Gordon.


Edited by scorp on Wednesday 19th November 10:15

mark69sheer

3,906 posts

204 months

Wednesday 19th November 2008
quotequote all
NEAKY said:
mark69sheer said:
Neaky I don't think your view is helping.
The major sticking point the research came up with was that people who carried donor cards did so because they got satisfaction out of the idea of doing something good off their own bat.

Your reference to non donor card carriers as 'arrogant' and 'them' or should be dissallowed transplants themselves is hardly going to warm people to being presumed to do anything.

Were you yourself a donor card carrier before your sons were diagnosed?
Yes i had a donor card and gave blood !
Tell me why you should be allowed to get a donor organ if you aren't willing to donate yourself , hardly seems fair does it ?
Again the point is if you don't want to donate you can OPT OUT its remarkably simple.
My view is one of someone who has been through the transplant system which i would say is very relevant don't you !!
I agree your view is very relevant and I should be allowed a transplant because that is how the system currently operates. If the rules are changed then perhaps non opting in donors will be dissallowed transplants but what of sick people who's organs are not able to be donated.
I can't say any more on the subject my points have been made and I will not discuss further in respect of your close personal experiences. I hope your boys live long happy lives Neaky. All the best for the future.