Savage attack on WPC
Discussion
BertieWooster said:
Thanks for the response. When did handcuffing to the rear stop being done to compliant prisoners? It just seems odd that it isn't utilised any more as it seems a very good way to help maintain officer safety - especially as you can never guarantee that a prisoner will stay compliant.
As far as I'm aware from my last requal, cuffing to the rear is still the preferred method for everyone. I don't normally post on these things however today probably against my better judgement I will
I work frontline on a busy inner city division which covers a city centre with over 300 licencensed venues and a population of around 300k swelled on a weekend evening by another 60-80k in various bars clubs venues etc
In the last four years it has gone from roughly 30 insp 90 sgts and 900 constables to about 14 insp 50 sgts and 450 constables
The demand has not halved .. In fact I'd say it has gone up considerably in some areas
Last weekend I was on lates .. Every area was way below minimum strengths .. Every officer was single crewed .. Job after job getting delayed then delayed again.
Serious jobs with no one to go to them .. Single officers being sent to violent incidents .. No one to back them up
The prisoner process unit completely overwhelmed
Completely broken ... And no one here cares because it doesn't affect them .. Until you dial. 999 because you have been assaulted and nobody comes
So you call an ambulance .. And no ambulance comes ..
This happens every day all the time
So what do you want the police to stop doing ?
Dealing with accidents ?
traffic enforcement ?
We'll both those have already pretty much stopped
Proactive patrols ?
Yep pretty much stopped
Investigating low level crime and disorder ?
Yep you guessed it .. Pretty much stopped
So how about your car being stolen or house being burgled ?
Yep that is coming believe me
Shoplifters ? Fraud ? Drugs possession ?
Yep you've guessed it
I've nearly 29 years service and it Appals me ...
One day soon something will happen something that will make the press and public wake up till then the cuts will continue ...
Where I work there are 8 sgts doing the work that 4 years ago was done by 15 we were told last week that the numbers are being cut again .. This time the same 8 officers will cover twice the geographical area so doubling the work load again .. Something has to give and it is me and my colleagues .. There is only so much you can do and take on
The problem is the cops care and keep going to the jobs and strive really hard to keep the wheel on .. But the wheel is broken and soon it won't go round and round
So the cuts have consequences ... What do you want the police to stop doing ?
I work frontline on a busy inner city division which covers a city centre with over 300 licencensed venues and a population of around 300k swelled on a weekend evening by another 60-80k in various bars clubs venues etc
In the last four years it has gone from roughly 30 insp 90 sgts and 900 constables to about 14 insp 50 sgts and 450 constables
The demand has not halved .. In fact I'd say it has gone up considerably in some areas
Last weekend I was on lates .. Every area was way below minimum strengths .. Every officer was single crewed .. Job after job getting delayed then delayed again.
Serious jobs with no one to go to them .. Single officers being sent to violent incidents .. No one to back them up
The prisoner process unit completely overwhelmed
Completely broken ... And no one here cares because it doesn't affect them .. Until you dial. 999 because you have been assaulted and nobody comes
So you call an ambulance .. And no ambulance comes ..
This happens every day all the time
So what do you want the police to stop doing ?
Dealing with accidents ?
traffic enforcement ?
We'll both those have already pretty much stopped
Proactive patrols ?
Yep pretty much stopped
Investigating low level crime and disorder ?
Yep you guessed it .. Pretty much stopped
So how about your car being stolen or house being burgled ?
Yep that is coming believe me
Shoplifters ? Fraud ? Drugs possession ?
Yep you've guessed it
I've nearly 29 years service and it Appals me ...
One day soon something will happen something that will make the press and public wake up till then the cuts will continue ...
Where I work there are 8 sgts doing the work that 4 years ago was done by 15 we were told last week that the numbers are being cut again .. This time the same 8 officers will cover twice the geographical area so doubling the work load again .. Something has to give and it is me and my colleagues .. There is only so much you can do and take on
The problem is the cops care and keep going to the jobs and strive really hard to keep the wheel on .. But the wheel is broken and soon it won't go round and round
So the cuts have consequences ... What do you want the police to stop doing ?
Earthdweller said:
What do you want the police to stop doing ?
Accusing a population of men of murder and pissing taxpayers money up the wall with a futile and immoral DNA testing would be a good starting point!! http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/sussex-poli...
Sorry for the Police Woman, if that is even what I am allowed to call her!!?
Earthdweller said:
One day soon something will happen something that will make the press and public wake up till then the cuts will continue ...
No it won't because unless it affects a senior politicians/Judges etc they pay lip service, That is unlikely to happen as your 'thinly stretched resources' are diverted to protect them?Earthdweller said:
So the cuts have consequences ... What do you want the police to stop doing ?
How many police that are supposed to be protecting the public are stood outside the Ecuadorian embassy and at what cost. Use G4S if you have to.
As much as i abhor the racism of what happened in Paris is that up to our police to investigate it happened abroad much like all the threads on here about speeding fines from abroad which the general consensus is to ignore.
It's a case of prioritising finite resources you know that.
As for hearing that control room bod "we're calling an ambulance" good luck with that,
8 minutes or whatever response is bandied about ?, Big un's don't do that so we have cars and bikes to assess, next the figures will be assessed on answering the phone within 8 mins = target hit if the managers beancounting have their way.
an hr was usual on the motorways, yet again all down to resources and priorities because many idiots see ambulances as cheaper than taxis for themselves.
Earthdweller said:
One day soon something will happen something that will make the press and public wake up till then the cuts will continue ...
Some day soon someone will blame the police for whatever happens due to the cuts. That's the way it is. The press aren't bothered: they are either pro tory so don't want to suggest that they are not the party of law and order, or are left, and view the swingeing cuts as something that is a good thing. The public will be told absolute rubbish and they will lap it up. If the police federation says anything, it will be dismissed as spin.
People complained about the police response to the recent riots. Now work out what will happen next time, 'cause there will be a next time, and then just hope there are no rioters around you, as there are unlikely to be enough police.
Cuts? It's not the government that says where the savings should be made, it is members of the council and police services playing politics, and just as councils would rather cut care to OAPs than 'executive' salaries and benefits.........
The scare mongering does not reflect the reality, such small efficiency savings should have been easily achievable without a degradation in service if the management were competent:-
The trouble is that New Labour threw money at the police service and it did not provide value for money accordingly.
Even so, the numbers of FTE police officers have not even been reduced to levels of a few years ago, so quite why some people should be reporting 50% cuts in manpower is unfathomable.
So what did the LSE make of the New Labour police spending spree?
"Additional expenditure on policing should have delivered a sizeable return in operational performance and it is not clear that it has. In fact it is likely that an unprecedented growth in police posts in the last 10 years has delivered diminishing returns; driven an unsustainable increase in the police wage bill; and has not markedly improved police performance, which in some areas and on some measures has actually deteriorated."
Yer, nasty Tories, trying to be responsible with public money.
The scare mongering does not reflect the reality, such small efficiency savings should have been easily achievable without a degradation in service if the management were competent:-
The trouble is that New Labour threw money at the police service and it did not provide value for money accordingly.
Even so, the numbers of FTE police officers have not even been reduced to levels of a few years ago, so quite why some people should be reporting 50% cuts in manpower is unfathomable.
So what did the LSE make of the New Labour police spending spree?
"Additional expenditure on policing should have delivered a sizeable return in operational performance and it is not clear that it has. In fact it is likely that an unprecedented growth in police posts in the last 10 years has delivered diminishing returns; driven an unsustainable increase in the police wage bill; and has not markedly improved police performance, which in some areas and on some measures has actually deteriorated."
Yer, nasty Tories, trying to be responsible with public money.
With the greatest of respect. You haven't got a bloody clue.
Figures can be massaged and dressed up any way you like. Small cuts would have resulted in some fat being trimmed, but the current large cuts are affecting frontline services in an enormously dangerous manner. This is from people who know what's actually happening. I would suggest you do not.
Compare and contrast the likelihood of an ambulance turning up quickly to your emergency between 2004 and today, for instance. This mayhem is not confined to the Police service.
Figures can be massaged and dressed up any way you like. Small cuts would have resulted in some fat being trimmed, but the current large cuts are affecting frontline services in an enormously dangerous manner. This is from people who know what's actually happening. I would suggest you do not.
Compare and contrast the likelihood of an ambulance turning up quickly to your emergency between 2004 and today, for instance. This mayhem is not confined to the Police service.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I do sort of agree with this, but I do believe that female officers are needed in certain scenarios. I wonder if they need better self defence classes too? It was about 12 years ago, we had a newly qualified WPC who frequented our pub boasting that she could tackle any of the doormen due to her advanced training...... needless to say she didn't succeed
not sure whether her failure was due to the lack of size or that she wasn't as good as she thought.Edited by Crush on Saturday 21st February 18:51
[quote=Mr GrimNasty]Cuts? It's not the government that says where the savings should be made, it is members of the council and police services playing politics, and just as councils would rather cut care to OAPs than 'executive' salaries and benefits.........
The scare mongering does not reflect the reality, such small efficiency savings should have been easily achievable without a degradation in service if the management were competent
Even so, the numbers of FTE police officers have not even been reduced to levels of a few years ago, so quite why some people should be reporting 50% cuts in manpower is unfathomable
Well I'm not political nor trying to score points .. My force is pretty much back down to 90s staffing levels and will soon be back to the levels of when I joined in the 80's
However ...
The last time numbers were this low the demands were very different :
There were no firearms units ... Handguns were kept in a locked safe in the station in case they were needed
There were no public protection divisions
There were no counter terrorism regional hubs
There were no hi tech crime units
There were no forensic collision reconstruction units
There were no domestic violence units
There were no hate crime units
There were no fraud and cyber crime units
Etc etc etc ...
The world has changed .. So yes I can say as a front line Bobby we may have the same number of cops trying to police today's world with the numbers of 30 years ago ...
So Mr grimasty ... What would you have the police stop doing ?
The scare mongering does not reflect the reality, such small efficiency savings should have been easily achievable without a degradation in service if the management were competent
Even so, the numbers of FTE police officers have not even been reduced to levels of a few years ago, so quite why some people should be reporting 50% cuts in manpower is unfathomable
Well I'm not political nor trying to score points .. My force is pretty much back down to 90s staffing levels and will soon be back to the levels of when I joined in the 80's
However ...
The last time numbers were this low the demands were very different :
There were no firearms units ... Handguns were kept in a locked safe in the station in case they were needed
There were no public protection divisions
There were no counter terrorism regional hubs
There were no hi tech crime units
There were no forensic collision reconstruction units
There were no domestic violence units
There were no hate crime units
There were no fraud and cyber crime units
Etc etc etc ...
The world has changed .. So yes I can say as a front line Bobby we may have the same number of cops trying to police today's world with the numbers of 30 years ago ...
So Mr grimasty ... What would you have the police stop doing ?
it strikes me that there are always enough police for doing things like looking into wacism or making sure assange can't leave the Ecuadorian embassy or shooting Brazilian plumbers or guarding a loose seal in a field near Liverpool etc etc and yet they're always short of manpower/can't spare the bodies to look into 1,400 girls being abused in Rotherham etc etc. The problem is the police are like any public service - if you ask them if they need/want more £££ the answer is always going to be "yes!" regardless of whether it is really needed or not.
Of course, it is simply due to the fact that more money must be spent
It is surely a quite reasonable assumption that chap conducting said assault on WPC did so simply due to the fact that he had not sufficient money spent on him
Poor chap.
WPC - all alone - without a large (male) unit alongside? More money must be spent
But, overall More money must be spent
Unfortunately, there is no more to be had
Get in line for taxpayers dosh - Armed Forces, NHS, Education, Police etc.
It is surely a quite reasonable assumption that chap conducting said assault on WPC did so simply due to the fact that he had not sufficient money spent on him
Poor chap.
WPC - all alone - without a large (male) unit alongside? More money must be spent
But, overall More money must be spent
Unfortunately, there is no more to be had
Get in line for taxpayers dosh - Armed Forces, NHS, Education, Police etc.
Edited by Ali G on Saturday 21st February 19:48
Ali G said:
But, overall More money must be spent
That's just it, it doesn't, inefficiency and waste is rife but it hits 'some' of those delivering and receiving services on the front line. Francis Maudes in "The Times" last Saturday "The Interview" P32-33.
"Waging war on Whitehall inertia and saving £50Bn" isn't far off the mark.
Lowest number of police officers since 2002
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/31/number-p...
OP - the only time some PHers will care about the Police is when some chavvy scrote scratches their pimped up E46 M3 badged 318.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/31/number-p...
OP - the only time some PHers will care about the Police is when some chavvy scrote scratches their pimped up E46 M3 badged 318.
They managed to find an extra £1 billion to spend on some poor, destitute African Dictator recently. And spent in short order too.
If you're one of the people who are happy to wait 2hrs for an ambulance during a heart attack, or see Police numbers cut by 60000, or know that a prison is being staffed by only 6 prison Officers then fine. Just stop pretending that these massive reductions haven't had a major affect on our ability to do our job. And stop pretending it' the fault of the organisations themselves.
If you're one of the people who are happy to wait 2hrs for an ambulance during a heart attack, or see Police numbers cut by 60000, or know that a prison is being staffed by only 6 prison Officers then fine. Just stop pretending that these massive reductions haven't had a major affect on our ability to do our job. And stop pretending it' the fault of the organisations themselves.
I have no idea about the in's and out's of any funding issues but I tell you what I do know/think.
Just after the last rioting, I had a chat with a policeman who had just transferred from the Met to Surrey.
"What had caused that?" I asked.
"Basically during the riots I thought I was going to die. We had no back-up, no support, no one wanted to take responsibility for anything in case it all went breasts up or basically seemed to know what to do. In the end we were very lucky no one got killed. So I got out,"
When the riots come back and during the summer if a promising footballer goes down with the police in the same postcode, they will, if the police are so short staffed what's going to happen then? Rely on the Special Constables? & while all this is going on where will the people who need to make the decisions be? I'm guessing they will be following CP general policy & organising another raid on Cliffs house to divert attention.
And if the riots are caused by a reaction to a terrorist atrocity and take place in areas of already serious racial tension, what then? The Army on the streets?
Its a curse to live in interesting times.
Just after the last rioting, I had a chat with a policeman who had just transferred from the Met to Surrey.
"What had caused that?" I asked.
"Basically during the riots I thought I was going to die. We had no back-up, no support, no one wanted to take responsibility for anything in case it all went breasts up or basically seemed to know what to do. In the end we were very lucky no one got killed. So I got out,"
When the riots come back and during the summer if a promising footballer goes down with the police in the same postcode, they will, if the police are so short staffed what's going to happen then? Rely on the Special Constables? & while all this is going on where will the people who need to make the decisions be? I'm guessing they will be following CP general policy & organising another raid on Cliffs house to divert attention.
And if the riots are caused by a reaction to a terrorist atrocity and take place in areas of already serious racial tension, what then? The Army on the streets?
Its a curse to live in interesting times.
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