This is why we must never bring back the death sentence...
Discussion
One of my recolections of bumping into a murderer was the 'chap' who fed his GF to the pigs, it was alledeged he did the same thing before but they couldn't pin it on him. One afternoon we were treated to a viewing of the 'Golden Child' on the lower deck ground floor, the other floors were on gangways above us. While we were watching the film the other two or three floors were locked off - that is you couldn't get up the steel staircases. The cat 'A' prisoners were then let out to walk the gangways for their exersize, some were man slaughter cases others were into more serious stuff. On this occasion they only let the this 'chap' out. He strolled out like he was the daddy and slowly our eyes diverted up to him, why he was on our remand wing was a mystery as he should have been on rule 43's (the nonce wing). A few remarks started heading in his direction and he became defiant in his body language, chosing to do arm press-ups on one of the cross gangways - that was it there was nearly a riot!! we were out of our chairs and they had to get him back to his cell. Now and then you could hear him bang his head on the cell door, crying "I want to get out". Most of us used to call back "Die you F***er" and the likes - If they'd have hanged the selfish life taking nonce we would have cheered. 
He got life in the end.
He got life in the end.andymadmak said:
fadeaway said:
andymadmak said:
Unfortunately for those on this thread that argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent, the ONLY available evidence suggests most strongly that it is.
Forget the spurious arguements about crime in the USA and other societies that have the death penalty. These places are patently not the UK, have different social structures and norms, and hugely different attitiudes to things like gun ownership etc.
The only reliable data available is from the Home Office, and then the data to be looked at is the murder rate per million head of population pre and post repeal of the death sentence.
in short, in the approx 80 years that records were kept pre the abolition of the death penalty in the UK, the murder rate per million head of population stayed pretty constant at about 7. This despite 2 world wars, a great depression, and times of massive social upheaval and change.
In the 40 odd years since abolition, the murder rate has doubled to 14.
says it all really. So, given that there are 60 milllion of us on these islands now, we now have an average of 840 murders per year, versus the 420 it would have been if the murder rate had remained the same as it had been for the previous 80 years. Thats 420 extra murdered souls dead, so that the liberal sqeemish can preach to us and sleep well in their beds.
Perhaps a tad simplistic? But more than a grain of truth I suspect...
AKM
You can't assume causality based solely on one change!Forget the spurious arguements about crime in the USA and other societies that have the death penalty. These places are patently not the UK, have different social structures and norms, and hugely different attitiudes to things like gun ownership etc.
The only reliable data available is from the Home Office, and then the data to be looked at is the murder rate per million head of population pre and post repeal of the death sentence.
in short, in the approx 80 years that records were kept pre the abolition of the death penalty in the UK, the murder rate per million head of population stayed pretty constant at about 7. This despite 2 world wars, a great depression, and times of massive social upheaval and change.
In the 40 odd years since abolition, the murder rate has doubled to 14.
says it all really. So, given that there are 60 milllion of us on these islands now, we now have an average of 840 murders per year, versus the 420 it would have been if the murder rate had remained the same as it had been for the previous 80 years. Thats 420 extra murdered souls dead, so that the liberal sqeemish can preach to us and sleep well in their beds.
Perhaps a tad simplistic? But more than a grain of truth I suspect...
AKM
At the pinacle of all this is the death penalty. Time was, you took a life and you lost yours. Now, you can take a life and be out in 5 years and treated as a hero by your mates.
The death penalty, as part of a police and criminal justice system which strikes fear in the heart of prospective crims has got to be a deterrent.
Now, rather than loftily dismissing the doubling of the annual murder rate since the abolition of the death penalty, perhaps you might care to put forward an alternate, credible explanation/
AKM
tinman0 said:
EDLT said:
carter711 said:
He is due a fair sized compo I'd say.
Wasn't there a cap put on prisoner compo a while back?thehawk said:
I totally disagree. The odd innocent life is worth the sacrifice in comparison to the potential thousands of scumbags that could be removed. However under my system this man wouldn't have been executed because I would impose the death penalty only in case where it can be proven without doubt that the person had done it and only in certain crimes, even certain degrees of those crimes.
One thing I forgot to say on the other thread about Britains decline is that I also think a large part of that is due to us becoming weak as a society, this is an example. It will probably be our downfall in the end.
The odd innocent life !? That's easy to say. I'd wager you wouldn't hold that view as they strapped you into the chair/ put the noose aroudn your neck. I think you'd empty your bowels at that point if you hadn't already.One thing I forgot to say on the other thread about Britains decline is that I also think a large part of that is due to us becoming weak as a society, this is an example. It will probably be our downfall in the end.
Frankly your statement just illustrates a complete lack of connection with real life.
And you are a twaat for it and i claim my well earned £5.
You say "only in case where it can be proven without doubt that the person had done it and only in certain crimes, even certain degrees of those crimes"
The guy in this story was proven guilty without doubt as are all such convictions.
What crimes or degrees of crime would you have the death sentence for ? Would the rape and then murder of a woman fit into this !?
You are an idiot, show a complete lack of logic and utter naivety. I now claim an additional £5.
Carry on, you are making me rich.
ali_kat said:
Never realised you'd been in Cliff! You seemed like such a 'nice' person too 
banter! (before anyone jumps on me!!)
No worries banter! (before anyone jumps on me!!)
, Yes unfortunately I had a taste of it some years back due to certain circumstances that I can't go into on here. I met a few on Cat 'A' that were in for 'life taking'. Amongst them were your normal mansluaghter cases, one of which was a bloke who caught his wife out and stabbed her lover to death, he always insisted the guy fell onto the knife 
but he was an 'every day bloke', full of remorse and close to a nervous breakdown. A short bloke of Maltese descent who made a bee-line for me to talk things out, I like to think I helped keep him sane 
He honestly seemed to have a dire unplanned life changing moment.On the other hand there are some evil b*****ds, like who I mentioned earlier, who show no remorse for what they've done and who probably play the system - cowards, that think it's ok to take someone elses life but want to survive themselves. These are the ones that are unsafe in society, who you really wouldn't want to be out mixing with ordinary decent people.
Hoppy2008 said:
heebeegeetee said:
hoppy2008 said:
His conviction was based upon a lie told by him, in a day when they didnt have the DNA methods that we have today?
No, he was a pathological liar. That's not a criticism of him, it's a fact. he was known to the police as a pathologic liar at the time, he had a history of confessing to crimes, and he had a history of confessing to crimes in which it was known that he could not have committed. Everything was known about him at the time, he was well known to the police at the time as being a pathological liar.So, it seems that some people think it is ok to hang nutters whist not only letting the guilty off scot free, but maintaining their liberty to go on to commit further foul deeds. Blimey, no wonder the murder rate has gone up.
Yet the legal profession at the time did decide to pin this murder onto know nutter (and i mean that in the nicest way) which let the real perpetrator off scot free.
Our legal process has form for pinning crimes onto nutters and has hanged nutters in the past, which achieved nothing.
andymadmak said:
Unfortunately for those on this thread that argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent, the ONLY available evidence suggests most strongly that it is.
The UK has a traceable history going back over 2000 years. You say the only available evidence is about a tenth of that, or less in reality. That ain't enough.
ZR1cliff said:
No worries , Yes unfortunately I had a taste of it some years back due to certain circumstances that I can't go into on here. I met a few on Cat 'A' that were in for 'life taking'. Amongst them were your normal [b]mansluaghter[b] cases, ...
Did the spelling police nab you? , Yes unfortunately I had a taste of it some years back due to certain circumstances that I can't go into on here. I met a few on Cat 'A' that were in for 'life taking'. Amongst them were your normal [b]mansluaghter[b] cases, ...
thinfourth2 said:
GPSS said:
If the conviction is based on conclusive DNA based evidence, then there is no reason not to have the death penalty.
Tonight i shall pop into your house and steal your hairbrushI shall then murder my neighbour and leave a few of your hairs at the scene
100% genetic match to you at the scene
Still happy about DNA evidence?
And there are lots of other ways DNA can be transferred quite some distance.
Obviously, in a rape case where a semen sample is obtained it may be quite conclusive, but I can think of many other scenarios where DNA evidence could be unreliable.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Exactly, and there is no reason why we shouldn't execute these sorts of people. I don't think it's that hard in modern day society to devise a safe and graduated system whereby only the really bad guys get executed. I'd be all in favour of murderers getting real life, multiple murderers getting executed along with real psychopaths, child rapists and murderers etc.heebeegeetee said:
andymadmak said:
Unfortunately for those on this thread that argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent, the ONLY available evidence suggests most strongly that it is.
The UK has a traceable history going back over 2000 years. You say the only available evidence is about a tenth of that, or less in reality. That ain't enough.of course, if you can get me Home office stats going back to AD 09 I'll be happy to reconsider.
All in all, your arguement is VERY weak!
AKM
Hammerwerfer said:
ZR1cliff said:
No worries , Yes unfortunately I had a taste of it some years back due to certain circumstances that I can't go into on here. I met a few on Cat 'A' that were in for 'life taking'. Amongst them were your normal [b]mansluaghter[b] cases, ...
Did the spelling police nab you? , Yes unfortunately I had a taste of it some years back due to certain circumstances that I can't go into on here. I met a few on Cat 'A' that were in for 'life taking'. Amongst them were your normal [b]mansluaghter[b] cases, ...Here have one of these /
10 Pence Short said:
ali_kat said:
10ps - out of curiosity - did this conversation ever happen whilst you were inside? Did you get to meet any 'lifers' and get their views?
Not really, though to be fair I wasn't in the same facilities as those who were considered properly dangerous. There were one or two lifers getting towards the end of their sentences in Wealstun Open, preparing for life outside, but the discussion never came up.To be honest, when you've been locked up for 10+ years, you're more interested in what's with your chips today than the politics of the death sentence Vs life imprisonment.
Really nice chap. We became friends and he was a very interesting person to talk to. He was studying for a degree in theology.
They never found the head of his second victim
tinman0 said:
just me said:
No, it doesn't. The death penalty is not a deterrent. For one thing, violent criminals are either psychopathic or acting in the heat of the moment. Neither would stop and think "Hang on, I could be executed for this" and then stop themselves from proceeding. That leaves about 2,499 other considerations, none of them involving the death penalty.
Have a look at the cctv images that are published where someone gets stabbed - this isn't a psychopath or heat of the moment - its pure cold blooded killing and the perpetrator knows that at the very worst case scenario they'll get 15 years..Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff