buy to let or holiday let?
Poll: buy to let or holiday let?
Total Members Polled: 80
Discussion
We've just (finally) sold our share of the family home to my sister so i am mortgage free and have around £45k that me and the other half want to put into a property investment of some description.
I live in a property with my other half, which she is the sole owner of so i have a base, but we thought it would be a good idea for 'me' to get a place too.
Other half is very keen to buy a holiday home to let/airbnb kind of thing, i on the other hand think it would be more sensible to do a long term buy to let with a management company, then in theory, the property looks after itself, we don't get bothered by it until we retire and then we sell up and have a nice retirement adding it to our retirement fund.
Anyone considered/considering the same and any thoughts to consider other than mine, which is 'a holiday home is much more likely to get trashed, regularly' ?
lastly, it was the other half that suggested putting the question to PH - she's a keeper!
I live in a property with my other half, which she is the sole owner of so i have a base, but we thought it would be a good idea for 'me' to get a place too.
Other half is very keen to buy a holiday home to let/airbnb kind of thing, i on the other hand think it would be more sensible to do a long term buy to let with a management company, then in theory, the property looks after itself, we don't get bothered by it until we retire and then we sell up and have a nice retirement adding it to our retirement fund.
Anyone considered/considering the same and any thoughts to consider other than mine, which is 'a holiday home is much more likely to get trashed, regularly' ?
lastly, it was the other half that suggested putting the question to PH - she's a keeper!
I like property as an asset class but it’s not risk free.
Unless you’re looking at somewhere cheap, presumably there’s also a mortgage involved? If so you probably want to think about how rare changes could impact you.
If doing BTL, could you weather the perfect storm of a tenant who didn’t pay for 6-12 months, needed to be evicted, and trashed the place on the way out?
You’d hope it would never happen, but it can and does to some…
Don’t get lulled into thinking that it’s cost/hassle free if it does all go according to plan. Redecorating can easily run to 2-3 months gross rent unless you diy. New boiler can also eat several months gross rent. If you have a mortgage then these could mean your personal cash flow is negative over a year (even if the size of the mortgage is decreasing).
But when it works it can work well, especially if you getting term tenants.
Unless you’re looking at somewhere cheap, presumably there’s also a mortgage involved? If so you probably want to think about how rare changes could impact you.
If doing BTL, could you weather the perfect storm of a tenant who didn’t pay for 6-12 months, needed to be evicted, and trashed the place on the way out?
You’d hope it would never happen, but it can and does to some…
Don’t get lulled into thinking that it’s cost/hassle free if it does all go according to plan. Redecorating can easily run to 2-3 months gross rent unless you diy. New boiler can also eat several months gross rent. If you have a mortgage then these could mean your personal cash flow is negative over a year (even if the size of the mortgage is decreasing).
But when it works it can work well, especially if you getting term tenants.
Interesting situation, I was in a very similar position with similar figures etc. Firstly though, it sounds like you don't own the house you live in as it's owned 100% by your partner. Personally that'd have an impact on how I'd invest and the risk I'd be willing to take. For example, if I were in that position, should the worst happen and I separated or even worse happened to my partner, I'd need to know where I'm going to be living. That'd have an impact as any property I bought for me to live in post disaster, including if you ended up owning your partner's property, would be subject to the increased stamp duty land tax for second homes if you had a rental or holiday let. It's definitely something I'd be inclined to examine before I started owning other properties.
If that is sorted then I'd personally try to look longer term. It sounds like you only want to stick at one property and from your comments about holiday lets and management companies it also sounds like you'd like as little hassle as possible. In that case I'd try my best to compare expected income from the house with expected income from another investment such as a diverse fund. I know this can be tricky as we don't know what the future holds but when I first became a landlord I had one property and a normal amount of hassle but my fund did equally as well financially with a better tax incentive as it was in an ISA. Overall I got more growth from the fund and no tax and it never called me in the night to change a light bulb, nor anyone else who would then charge me the earth to do it my behalf for that matter! It's definitely something that can be done but don't automatically assume property is the best investment, it may be, but look at everything else too to be sure.
I've since had another go. I have 5 small properties in the Shropshire which I've bought in poor condition, done work to them and rent them as nicely specked properties. I don't get a huge amount of hassle and the properties are leveraged to a degree I'm comfortable with. They're all close to me and I guess I kind of specialise in my village which has a lack of rental property. I also own my house with my partner and I still invest in funds too. The main thing is find somewhere you're happy with the risk and exposure to one market.
If that is sorted then I'd personally try to look longer term. It sounds like you only want to stick at one property and from your comments about holiday lets and management companies it also sounds like you'd like as little hassle as possible. In that case I'd try my best to compare expected income from the house with expected income from another investment such as a diverse fund. I know this can be tricky as we don't know what the future holds but when I first became a landlord I had one property and a normal amount of hassle but my fund did equally as well financially with a better tax incentive as it was in an ISA. Overall I got more growth from the fund and no tax and it never called me in the night to change a light bulb, nor anyone else who would then charge me the earth to do it my behalf for that matter! It's definitely something that can be done but don't automatically assume property is the best investment, it may be, but look at everything else too to be sure.
I've since had another go. I have 5 small properties in the Shropshire which I've bought in poor condition, done work to them and rent them as nicely specked properties. I don't get a huge amount of hassle and the properties are leveraged to a degree I'm comfortable with. They're all close to me and I guess I kind of specialise in my village which has a lack of rental property. I also own my house with my partner and I still invest in funds too. The main thing is find somewhere you're happy with the risk and exposure to one market.
My first questions would be how old are you and are you maxing out your pension tax relief?
Property can be a good way to diversify but you may want to grab the fiscally efficient ways of bolstering your retirement plans first.
Have you also considered buying half of your other half's property if she agrees? That may attract stamp duty but at least no future CGT.
Property can be a good way to diversify but you may want to grab the fiscally efficient ways of bolstering your retirement plans first.
Have you also considered buying half of your other half's property if she agrees? That may attract stamp duty but at least no future CGT.
Edited by nickfrog on Tuesday 19th April 10:01
Pixelpeep 135 said:
We've just (finally) sold our share of the family home to my sister so i am mortgage free and have around £45k that me and the other half want to put into a property investment of some description.
I live in a property with my other half, which she is the sole owner of so i have a base, but we thought it would be a good idea for 'me' to get a place too.
Other half is very keen to buy a holiday home to let/airbnb kind of thing, i on the other hand think it would be more sensible to do a long term buy to let with a management company, then in theory, the property looks after itself, we don't get bothered by it until we retire and then we sell up and have a nice retirement adding it to our retirement fund.
Anyone considered/considering the same and any thoughts to consider other than mine, which is 'a holiday home is much more likely to get trashed, regularly' ?
lastly, it was the other half that suggested putting the question to PH - she's a keeper!
When you say you don’t own the house you live in but at the start stated you’d sold the family home to your sister and became mortgage free plus £45k. What property did you become mortgage free on? I live in a property with my other half, which she is the sole owner of so i have a base, but we thought it would be a good idea for 'me' to get a place too.
Other half is very keen to buy a holiday home to let/airbnb kind of thing, i on the other hand think it would be more sensible to do a long term buy to let with a management company, then in theory, the property looks after itself, we don't get bothered by it until we retire and then we sell up and have a nice retirement adding it to our retirement fund.
Anyone considered/considering the same and any thoughts to consider other than mine, which is 'a holiday home is much more likely to get trashed, regularly' ?
lastly, it was the other half that suggested putting the question to PH - she's a keeper!
I’m assuming it’s the one you live in and as such your have had your name added to the deeds to recognise your investment in the property or is it 100% in your partners name?
Going on the budget £150k + SDLT + other buying fees and renovation fees it’s clearly going to be a small property. I don’t know but is that the sort of property that let’s easily? A search in the area of choice would help
Pixelpeep 135 said:
I get about a fair bit between work/home and visiting mum so my search parameters for buy to let are quite wide.
Essex/Cambridge or Suffolk basically
Decide where to buy based either on yield (if someone else is going to do the work) or being able to get there easily if it’s you. Essex/Cambridge or Suffolk basically
My most remote is about 1h from home. Means every visit is 2hrs travel and will almost certainly be the first property I sell if I ever need money. You will be amazed how many little jobs need doing or a sense check.
For example, garage door won’t open. Are you going to take a look yourself or call a garage door firm? A quick look and it could just need some new wire to the handle. Call a garage door firm as an absentee landlord and it could well “need” a new door…
But if the margins are fat enough because you bought in an area that provides a higher rental yield, do you really care?
Welshbeef said:
When you say you don’t own the house you live in but at the start stated you’d sold the family home to your sister and became mortgage free plus £45k. What property did you become mortgage free on?
I’m assuming it’s the one you live in and as such your have had your name added to the deeds to recognise your investment in the property or is it 100% in your partners name?
Going on the budget £150k + SDLT + other buying fees and renovation fees it’s clearly going to be a small property. I don’t know but is that the sort of property that let’s easily? A search in the area of choice would help
When i met my partner i was the sole mortgage holder on my family home. Since we've been together, she's bought a property (she earns good money so affordability wasn't an issue) and i've been selling increasing % share of the family home to my sister when the 2/5 year deals have been expiring.I’m assuming it’s the one you live in and as such your have had your name added to the deeds to recognise your investment in the property or is it 100% in your partners name?
Going on the budget £150k + SDLT + other buying fees and renovation fees it’s clearly going to be a small property. I don’t know but is that the sort of property that let’s easily? A search in the area of choice would help
So i am mortgage free on paper and the other half still has a mortgage in her name, in the property i currently live in, with her.
Edited by Pixelpeep 135 on Tuesday 19th April 11:20
I trust you have read this thread?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Small, single property landlords are being targeted by just about everyone & having just one property means you have no way of covering losses with income from other properties. If you're going to do BTL you probably need to think about having a number of them, maybe 5 to 10 which would give some diversity of income.
The law & tax rules have changed significantly over the last few years & you need to understand what you are getting into. Have a look over on Lanlordzone:
https://www.landlordzone.co.uk/
Holiday lets don't seem to attract quite as much trouble but you need someone to do the cleaning & washing on the turnround day.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Small, single property landlords are being targeted by just about everyone & having just one property means you have no way of covering losses with income from other properties. If you're going to do BTL you probably need to think about having a number of them, maybe 5 to 10 which would give some diversity of income.
The law & tax rules have changed significantly over the last few years & you need to understand what you are getting into. Have a look over on Lanlordzone:
https://www.landlordzone.co.uk/
Holiday lets don't seem to attract quite as much trouble but you need someone to do the cleaning & washing on the turnround day.
Mr Pointy said:
I trust you have read this thread?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Small, single property landlords are being targeted by just about everyone & having just one property means you have no way of covering losses with income from other properties. If you're going to do BTL you probably need to think about having a number of them, maybe 5 to 10 which would give some diversity of income.
The law & tax rules have changed significantly over the last few years & you need to understand what you are getting into. Have a look over on Lanlordzone:
https://www.landlordzone.co.uk/
Holiday lets don't seem to attract quite as much trouble but you need someone to do the cleaning & washing on the turnround day.
Despite the above I’ve voted BTL of the choices offered - people will always need somewhere to live whereas somewhere to holiday in a recession could be stood empty, and if you needed to cut costs managing a BTL yourself would be far easier than running a holiday rental.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Small, single property landlords are being targeted by just about everyone & having just one property means you have no way of covering losses with income from other properties. If you're going to do BTL you probably need to think about having a number of them, maybe 5 to 10 which would give some diversity of income.
The law & tax rules have changed significantly over the last few years & you need to understand what you are getting into. Have a look over on Lanlordzone:
https://www.landlordzone.co.uk/
Holiday lets don't seem to attract quite as much trouble but you need someone to do the cleaning & washing on the turnround day.
Mr pointy is right - landlords are definitely in the firing line, and that’s from the Conservative party - imagine what Mr Corbyn could have done. I’d guess holiday homes haven’t been specifically targeted only because they haven’t got round to them yet.
Either BTL or holiday home will work hands off if you can find a good manager but finding a good proactive Airbnb manager could be fun - advertising and dealing with enquiries and bookings, cleaning, laundry, meet and greet fees and so on do add up, and that’s before you get to the ‘essential repairs’ you could get billed for if you’re not local enough to stay in the loop.
Property is at an all time high so there could be an argument for investing elsewhere and waiting to see what happens over the next few months with inflation, cost of living etc and how much of an effect it has on house prices.
Eta In more depth for the holiday let, it would make sense if you can make use of it yourselves.
We have a property in the Algarve that’s managed and let out for holidays, we’re now in our third year and other than one set of a
hole “guests” it’s been problem free apart from cushion covers needing washing and walls touching up due to suitcases/carelessness. I diy little stuff like that when I’m there. Managers do a key handover specifically to weigh the guests up eye to eye - I’d say that’s absolutely essential. Our problem guests were told to tidy up when the maids went in after a couple of days as it was apparently a real mess, after that the guests decided to take out their frustrations on the fridge freezer which ended up dented to the point it needed replacing. Weirdos. That’s one rental of maybe 20-30 that went bad. It’s usually the English that cause problems or damage - bear that in mind if you’re renting in the UK!
Don’t underestimate what’s needed to do holiday lets - licences, fire regs, a million pillowcases and plates and cutlery and regular decorating, plus gardeners etc if it’s got outside space.
Rough guess is we pay out about a third to half in management, laundry, cleaning, gardening etc of what guests are charged. And then it’s taxed. But we are gradually paying the mortgage off and do save thousands on our own holidays - that’s a big plus.
It doesn’t make a profit overall as it’s mortgaged but renting certainly makes a sizeable dent in the mortgage and running costs, and it’s definitely met the Beenyism Law of increasing in value in a rising market but that’s just pure luck.
Edited by andy43 on Tuesday 19th April 11:50
I've owned 2 BTLs for 10 years in London. Capital appreciation has been amazing, rents have not moved in all that time. I cannot make the numbers work for another BTL in my home city of Chester or indeed anywhere else in the North West that I'd want to buy.
I voted holiday let in your poll. The reason being George Osbourne a number of years ago introduced a new rule that for BTLs owned outside a company, you cannot offset the mortgage interest costs against your income for tax purposes. You do get a 20% tax credit on them but it's peanuts and nowhere near as attractive as offsetting the interest against income.
This rule doesn't apply to holiday lets.
The only other way around it is to buy the BTL in a limited company. I cannot do this as I already own them and transferring them will almost certainly trigger SDLT to be paid which would make the whole exercise pointless.
The advantage of a holiday let is obviously that you get to use it yourself and I believe in the right location the yield should be much better than a BTL. But I do think the work involved would be significantly more than a BTL.
As someone else said however, depending on what rate of income tax you pay, putting the money into a pension can give a very strong return based on the tax relief you'll receive.
I voted holiday let in your poll. The reason being George Osbourne a number of years ago introduced a new rule that for BTLs owned outside a company, you cannot offset the mortgage interest costs against your income for tax purposes. You do get a 20% tax credit on them but it's peanuts and nowhere near as attractive as offsetting the interest against income.
This rule doesn't apply to holiday lets.
The only other way around it is to buy the BTL in a limited company. I cannot do this as I already own them and transferring them will almost certainly trigger SDLT to be paid which would make the whole exercise pointless.
The advantage of a holiday let is obviously that you get to use it yourself and I believe in the right location the yield should be much better than a BTL. But I do think the work involved would be significantly more than a BTL.
As someone else said however, depending on what rate of income tax you pay, putting the money into a pension can give a very strong return based on the tax relief you'll receive.
BTL is a chore, you might luck out and get good tenants but the reality is on a 150k property you are not likely to see much in the way of returns. Lets assume you get a 500pcm rent. 6k a year. It wont take much to wipe that out. A new bathroom or carpets and a new front and back door.
Dont forget you will need insurance, boiler check etc etc. It all adds up.
I would run some numbers but W&T can be much, much higher on a BTL. And tenants these days like fresh properties. The tired stuff always (IMHO) attracts the tenants you dont want. If you have a tenant over 2 years you can forget any kind of compensation via deposit scheme for wear and tear btw. They wont pay anything unless its malicious damage.
FHL.
Its like a BTL but on speed. You need to be 100% clean at each change over. Have perfect linens, towels, fully stocked kitchen etc etc.
Agents can take up to 25%. Again the best properties make good money but at the level you are talking about you may struggle to break even tbh.
If you can DIY the cleaning, washing and welcome baskets etc you can probably get away with it. But its a lot of work. Again at this end of the market you might be attracting more risky customers. On top of the usual BTL costs you will need an accountant doing your books etc, that alone could be a couple of grand. AirBNB is cheaper way of doing it - their fee is 5% ish. But you would still have to pay cleaner / house keeper to do change over.
So my vote is neither. Invest the money and see what happens with the market next year. Its looking very. very toppy right now.
HTH.
Dont forget you will need insurance, boiler check etc etc. It all adds up.
I would run some numbers but W&T can be much, much higher on a BTL. And tenants these days like fresh properties. The tired stuff always (IMHO) attracts the tenants you dont want. If you have a tenant over 2 years you can forget any kind of compensation via deposit scheme for wear and tear btw. They wont pay anything unless its malicious damage.
FHL.
Its like a BTL but on speed. You need to be 100% clean at each change over. Have perfect linens, towels, fully stocked kitchen etc etc.
Agents can take up to 25%. Again the best properties make good money but at the level you are talking about you may struggle to break even tbh.
If you can DIY the cleaning, washing and welcome baskets etc you can probably get away with it. But its a lot of work. Again at this end of the market you might be attracting more risky customers. On top of the usual BTL costs you will need an accountant doing your books etc, that alone could be a couple of grand. AirBNB is cheaper way of doing it - their fee is 5% ish. But you would still have to pay cleaner / house keeper to do change over.
So my vote is neither. Invest the money and see what happens with the market next year. Its looking very. very toppy right now.
HTH.
Holiday lets are more work, obviously, at turnaround time and you'll have to pay someone to clean etc. unless you live close by. With BTL people usually buy local, so you can manage and collect rent yourself. As others have said, get the wrong tenant (and they can be very convincing initially, appearing to be respectable with references etc) and you have a nightmare scenario. It can take almost a year to evict non paying tenants, cost tens of thousands to renovate what they've left and chasing them for money afterwards is usually futile. Holiday let returns are higher, if it's a popular property. Council tax is currently / or plans are in place (depending on location) being increased substantially for second homes. Pembrokeshire council tax will increase to 300% from next year. Many holiday let owners pay business rates instead, although the property must be let for a minimum number of weeks to qualify. Property prices in Tenby etc. are insane.
A holiday let should probably be in a desirable/touristy area and purchase prices have skyrocketed more than elsewhere ( I have a feeling that idyllic 200 year old cottages with an F rating on their EPC will become less desirable though, as people struggle to keep them warm)
A holiday let should probably be in a desirable/touristy area and purchase prices have skyrocketed more than elsewhere ( I have a feeling that idyllic 200 year old cottages with an F rating on their EPC will become less desirable though, as people struggle to keep them warm)
Trouble is everything looks expensive right now (property, S&P 500 etc) maybe inflation will be your friend over the next few years with property but it is all a gamble
In terms of holiday lets my cousin has 2 in Wales (via Airbnb) but she is now going to let them normally as getting a reliable cleaner has proved impossible over the last year and she has had to drive there (4 hr round trip) multiple times to clean the houses on changeover day
I can see the attraction of putting it into your pension getting the 20% gov contrib and going 50/50 with S&P and inflation linked bonds
Good luck
In terms of holiday lets my cousin has 2 in Wales (via Airbnb) but she is now going to let them normally as getting a reliable cleaner has proved impossible over the last year and she has had to drive there (4 hr round trip) multiple times to clean the houses on changeover day
I can see the attraction of putting it into your pension getting the 20% gov contrib and going 50/50 with S&P and inflation linked bonds
Good luck
I voted btl.
Investment with Vanguard, IM, Prem Bonds and even a little in crypto hasn't worked out very well at all for me. So I've been buying more btls.instead to actually make some profit and gain from my "investments". (well it's not really 'investment' if it makes nothing, is it?)
Completed one today as it happens. Cost £50k and grosses £500pcm. Fully managed to the point where I can do nothing at all if I want, though I can also do anything I want to do and sometimes actually do do stuff if the mood takes me.
Next one completes mid June. A studio for £25k (+/- £5k bmv) currently grossing £350pm but with potential to increase to £450. And there are two more in the pipeline after that, plus a small commercial coming my way too before year end.
Don't really fancy FHLs personally. Not one bit. I was wondering if now that their numbers in UK have seriously increased, and covid mania has receded to the point where the foreign holiday market has come back big time , whether there might be a bit of a drop in demand for UK 'staycation' rentals other than the best (top 20%) of them. As to scaling it, how many would you collect before you wondered if you should just have gone into the hotel/motel business instead? Naaa. Not for me.
Investment with Vanguard, IM, Prem Bonds and even a little in crypto hasn't worked out very well at all for me. So I've been buying more btls.instead to actually make some profit and gain from my "investments". (well it's not really 'investment' if it makes nothing, is it?)
Completed one today as it happens. Cost £50k and grosses £500pcm. Fully managed to the point where I can do nothing at all if I want, though I can also do anything I want to do and sometimes actually do do stuff if the mood takes me.
Next one completes mid June. A studio for £25k (+/- £5k bmv) currently grossing £350pm but with potential to increase to £450. And there are two more in the pipeline after that, plus a small commercial coming my way too before year end.
Don't really fancy FHLs personally. Not one bit. I was wondering if now that their numbers in UK have seriously increased, and covid mania has receded to the point where the foreign holiday market has come back big time , whether there might be a bit of a drop in demand for UK 'staycation' rentals other than the best (top 20%) of them. As to scaling it, how many would you collect before you wondered if you should just have gone into the hotel/motel business instead? Naaa. Not for me.
Edited by Groat on Tuesday 19th April 23:21
Groat said:
I voted btl.
Investment with Vanguard, IM, Prem Bonds and even a little in crypto hasn't worked out very well at all for me. So I've been buying more btls.instead to actually make some profit and gain from my "investments". (well it's not really 'investment' if it makes nothing, is it?)
Completed one today as it happens. Cost £50k and grosses £500pcm. Fully managed to the point where I can do nothing at all if I want, though I can also do anything I want to do and sometimes actually do do stuff if the mood takes me.
Next one completes mid June. A studio for £25k (+/- £5k bmv) currently grossing £350pm but with potential to increase to £450. And there are two more in the pipeline after that, plus a small commercial coming my way too before year end.
Don't really fancy FHLs personally. Not one bit. I was wondering if now that their numbers in UK have seriously increased, and covid mania has receded to the point where the foreign holiday market has come back big time , whether there might be a bit of a drop in demand for UK 'staycation' rentals other than the best (top 20%) of them. As to scaling it, how many would you collect before you wondered if you should just have gone into the hotel/motel business instead? Naaa. Not for me.
Where are you buying these properties for £25-50k in the UK for rental £500+ pcm ?Investment with Vanguard, IM, Prem Bonds and even a little in crypto hasn't worked out very well at all for me. So I've been buying more btls.instead to actually make some profit and gain from my "investments". (well it's not really 'investment' if it makes nothing, is it?)
Completed one today as it happens. Cost £50k and grosses £500pcm. Fully managed to the point where I can do nothing at all if I want, though I can also do anything I want to do and sometimes actually do do stuff if the mood takes me.
Next one completes mid June. A studio for £25k (+/- £5k bmv) currently grossing £350pm but with potential to increase to £450. And there are two more in the pipeline after that, plus a small commercial coming my way too before year end.
Don't really fancy FHLs personally. Not one bit. I was wondering if now that their numbers in UK have seriously increased, and covid mania has receded to the point where the foreign holiday market has come back big time , whether there might be a bit of a drop in demand for UK 'staycation' rentals other than the best (top 20%) of them. As to scaling it, how many would you collect before you wondered if you should just have gone into the hotel/motel business instead? Naaa. Not for me.
Edited by Groat on Tuesday 19th April 23:21
There is another aspect to this that I don't think anyone has touched on, which is the moral issue. It may or may not bother you but if you BTL you are providing someone with a home. If you buy a HL you are depriving someone of a home. The previous poster who lets two HLs in Wales is depriving two families of a home. Wealthy Londoners have bought up large tracts of Wales and many are ghost towns in the off seasons. Arguments that it brings money into the local economy etc are codswallop. Someone living there puts more into the local economy. All year round.
I am Welsh but live in England, having married an English woman. I can afford to buy and would really like a second home in Wales, but my conscience pricks me. I haven't ruled it out but it has held me back so far.
I am Welsh but live in England, having married an English woman. I can afford to buy and would really like a second home in Wales, but my conscience pricks me. I haven't ruled it out but it has held me back so far.
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