responsibility for joists in apartment building
Discussion
Dry rot was discovered in the floor below the bath in one of my flats.
It's also in the joists which are my bathroom floor joists and are the ceiling joists of the flat below.
Is the remedial work (and cost) the joint responsibility of the two flats to deal with as the joists are common to both apartments?
It's also in the joists which are my bathroom floor joists and are the ceiling joists of the flat below.
Is the remedial work (and cost) the joint responsibility of the two flats to deal with as the joists are common to both apartments?
Edited by Portia5 on Saturday 11th May 10:34
Portia5 said:
Deeds are silent on the matter.
I'm pretty sure costs of joists between apartments are split 50/50 as the joists are jointly owned. Just not sure.
It may not explictly say, but it will be covered somewhere almost certainly. Look for wording such as "internal party walls....." which in the absence of anything more specific would cover the ceiling/floor. Its very likely such party walls you own half way thru, so would depend on where the joists are, but more than likely they would be closer to the floor of the flat above, than your ceiling. Regardless from a responsibility point of view, its infinately more likely they have or have had a leak which has caused them to rot, than the issue being caused by the flat below.I'm pretty sure costs of joists between apartments are split 50/50 as the joists are jointly owned. Just not sure.
Edited by Portia5 on Saturday 11th May 10:46
Try asking the management company who's responsbile, it may fall under common parts and be their liability too. If all else fails, offer to go 50/50 as you say. At the end of the day you just need it resolving really.
TownIdiot said:
Portia5 said:
Don't you think they should be liable for the maintenance of their ceiling joists?
I am a bit out of practice but I *think* the joists would be classed as the fabric of the building so wouldn't the freeholder of the building be responsible?I'm currently involved in remedying rising damp in another tenement building. The common owners are jointly responsible for the remedial works below the affected ground floor flat, but not for the remedial works within the flat itself.
Portia5 said:
I'm also a bit out of practice, but I'm sure joists between properties are common property of the two properties which share them, and not the common property of others in the building.
I'm currently involved in remedying rising damp in another tenement building. The common owners are jointly responsible for the remedial works below the affected ground floor flat, but not for the remedial works within the flat itself.
If the leases are silent as to who is responsible for the fabric of the building then I would have thought freeholder would be responsible.I'm currently involved in remedying rising damp in another tenement building. The common owners are jointly responsible for the remedial works below the affected ground floor flat, but not for the remedial works within the flat itself.
Having said that if the bath is responsible for the rot then I'd have hoped the bath owner would pay.
Portia5 said:
I'm also a bit out of practice, but I'm sure joists between properties are common property of the two properties which share them, and not the common property of others in the building.
It really depends on your lease, read it... There isnt really any generalisation you can make as every property is different on who owns what, and which bits the freeholder owns and maintains thru the mgmt company.TownIdiot said:
If the leases are silent as to who is responsible for the fabric of the building then I would have thought freeholder would be responsible.
Having said that if the bath is responsible for the rot then I'd have hoped the bath owner would pay.
This - except the freeholder will almost certainly have put a mgmt company in place to pay for such like, so the cost will come back out of the service charge which is ultimately the leaseholders cumulatively.Having said that if the bath is responsible for the rot then I'd have hoped the bath owner would pay.
As said though, if its down to a leaking bath or shower then the leaseholder above is clearly liable and they or their home insurance policy should pay for the repair.
Full disclosure 1): This is in Scotland where virtually all property is freehold. My (technically my wife's) apartment is one of 12 in the building which are a mixture of privately owned and HA owned. The HA are also the factors (managers) of the building and their management includes organising the comprehensive common buildings insurance policy which covers risks to both the individual dwellings and the common areas.
Full disclosure 2): I've already sorted it, accepting that the insurers may or may not pay out on the claim. I've also contacted the HA whose maintenance manager says it's above his pay grade to decide whether or not they can pay half the costs of the joist remedy and has referred me to their Director of Assets.
Next week I'll be sending her the full bhoona paperwork/pics/vids etc and then no doubt wait a few weeks for their committee to meet and decide on it.
Personally, I think the insurers will repudiate the claim.
More confident that the HA will share the costs (eventually).
O and here's a tiny extract from a Housing Tribunal hearing:
"...The Tribunal’s Decision:
The Tribunal have already determined that the joists are the property of the flats concerned and they not a common part of the tenement...."
Full disclosure 2): I've already sorted it, accepting that the insurers may or may not pay out on the claim. I've also contacted the HA whose maintenance manager says it's above his pay grade to decide whether or not they can pay half the costs of the joist remedy and has referred me to their Director of Assets.
Next week I'll be sending her the full bhoona paperwork/pics/vids etc and then no doubt wait a few weeks for their committee to meet and decide on it.
Personally, I think the insurers will repudiate the claim.
More confident that the HA will share the costs (eventually).
O and here's a tiny extract from a Housing Tribunal hearing:
"...The Tribunal’s Decision:
The Tribunal have already determined that the joists are the property of the flats concerned and they not a common part of the tenement...."
Edited by Portia5 on Saturday 11th May 11:38
TownIdiot said:
If the leases are silent as to who is responsible for the fabric of the building then I would have thought freeholder would be responsible.
Having said that if the bath is responsible for the rot then I'd have hoped the bath owner would pay.
This freeholder is responsible for organising the repair, the cost will then be apportioned to the leaseholders.Having said that if the bath is responsible for the rot then I'd have hoped the bath owner would pay.
AdamV12V said:
TownIdiot said:
If the leases are silent as to who is responsible for the fabric of the building then I would have thought freeholder would be responsible.
Having said that if the bath is responsible for the rot then I'd have hoped the bath owner would pay.
This - except the freeholder will almost certainly have put a mgmt company in place to pay for such like, so the cost will come back out of the service charge which is ultimately the leaseholders cumulatively.Having said that if the bath is responsible for the rot then I'd have hoped the bath owner would pay.
As said though, if its down to a leaking bath or shower then the leaseholder above is clearly liable and they or their home insurance policy should pay for the repair.
Mr Pointy said:
Not necessarily - if the bath had overflowed & damaged the flat beneath then it's up to the owners of the flat beneath to claim on their insurance, not the owners of the bath. If the freeholder/management company isn't going to take on the responsibilty then it might be the two flats are jointly responsible for half the joist each.
Not sure that's the case.An overflowing bath is clearly negligent and the responsibility of the bath owner
A leak in the bath or pipes may not involve negligence or a specific event so may be down the flat below.
TownIdiot said:
Mr Pointy said:
Not necessarily - if the bath had overflowed & damaged the flat beneath then it's up to the owners of the flat beneath to claim on their insurance, not the owners of the bath. If the freeholder/management company isn't going to take on the responsibilty then it might be the two flats are jointly responsible for half the joist each.
Not sure that's the case.An overflowing bath is clearly negligent and the responsibility of the bath owner
A leak in the bath or pipes may not involve negligence or a specific event so may be down the flat below.
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