Unpopular opinion - NHS is useless
Discussion
coyft said:
V6 Pushfit said:
Tens of thousands of hip/knee/heart/spine. I can count at least 50 theatres in the hospitals I deal with through work that run 6 days a week continuously. No cosmetic at all.
How many of those are paid for by the NHS?It’s not a 2-tier system, millions have health insurance and if the private hospitals can be efficient as businesses do can the NHS.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 20th July 09:42
Even leaving a message when they call or actually answering when you ring would increase NHS efficiency no end.
a) how many people a day ring to cancel due to Covid/other problems, can’t get through so give up? So missing the appointment and go down as a no-show to the bottom of the list again?
All for the sake of the hospital not having anyone with ownership to answer a bloody phone
b) how many miss a call from an unknown number when they have a hospital appointment coming up? No message, no second call, no number. A simple message ‘it’s a fasting test’ or ‘we have moved you 1/2 hour’ etc would do.
Again, no ownership and as you haven’t answered they just move on to the next on the list.
All this is currently totally inefficient and must waste so much.
a) how many people a day ring to cancel due to Covid/other problems, can’t get through so give up? So missing the appointment and go down as a no-show to the bottom of the list again?
All for the sake of the hospital not having anyone with ownership to answer a bloody phone
b) how many miss a call from an unknown number when they have a hospital appointment coming up? No message, no second call, no number. A simple message ‘it’s a fasting test’ or ‘we have moved you 1/2 hour’ etc would do.
Again, no ownership and as you haven’t answered they just move on to the next on the list.
All this is currently totally inefficient and must waste so much.
Douglas Quaid said:
That sounds horrible for you but I keep thinking about your wife having to pick the kids up not knowing if you were alive or dead. Good to hear you’re on the mend and good luck to you and family.
Thankyou. My wife was amazing throughout, I’m very lucky to have her supporting me. True Yorkshire lass lol.I believe the NHS is well funded but also has a legacy culture that cannot get itself into the modern world.
A significant union involvement often prevents change and creates a self perpetuating culture of self entitlement.
I am close to rhe NHS via family who work there and they often refer to " no one ever gets sacked by the NHS " largely because the union go stomping in as soon as anyone is told to stop swinging the lead so to speak. This leaves some management totally ineffective and this then spirals down.
Yes its a great service but it also needs to be modernised and being modernised shouldn't be seen as having a go at the current staff just that some of their current practices are quite unbelievably wasteful.
A significant union involvement often prevents change and creates a self perpetuating culture of self entitlement.
I am close to rhe NHS via family who work there and they often refer to " no one ever gets sacked by the NHS " largely because the union go stomping in as soon as anyone is told to stop swinging the lead so to speak. This leaves some management totally ineffective and this then spirals down.
Yes its a great service but it also needs to be modernised and being modernised shouldn't be seen as having a go at the current staff just that some of their current practices are quite unbelievably wasteful.
Longy00000 said:
I believe the NHS is well funded but also has a legacy culture that cannot get itself into the modern world.
A significant union involvement often prevents change and creates a self perpetuating culture of self entitlement.
I am close to rhe NHS via family who work there and they often refer to " no one ever gets sacked by the NHS " largely because the union go stomping in as soon as anyone is told to stop swinging the lead so to speak. This leaves some management totally ineffective and this then spirals down.
Yes its a great service but it also needs to be modernised and being modernised shouldn't be seen as having a go at the current staff just that some of their current practices are quite unbelievably wasteful.
I agree with this.A significant union involvement often prevents change and creates a self perpetuating culture of self entitlement.
I am close to rhe NHS via family who work there and they often refer to " no one ever gets sacked by the NHS " largely because the union go stomping in as soon as anyone is told to stop swinging the lead so to speak. This leaves some management totally ineffective and this then spirals down.
Yes its a great service but it also needs to be modernised and being modernised shouldn't be seen as having a go at the current staff just that some of their current practices are quite unbelievably wasteful.
A good friend consultant who does private surgeries as well as his nhs work has told me the attitude and waste in nhs settings is horrendous in the OR, and the amount of operations they get through is woeful often because someone critical (maybe even a porter) is on a break so the system stops. When he runs his private surgeries the staff are paid on performance (and he hand picks the ones that do a good job), unsurprisingly they get through several operations (opposed to a couple) in the same time frame and waste is a fraction. He took a ‘plan’ to the Trust chief exec a few years ago to help improve hospital OR performance and reduce waiting lists, based on his real world results, and was told that it was a non starter due to the unions.
Evanivitch said:
Largechris said:
I will try again
The Bury St Edmunds whistleblowing scandal I quoted the Guardian story.
The use of full time contractors at two or three times the cost of regular employees.
Unsurprising that an Engineer of your "calibre" considers such limited data points and anecdotal evidence to be representative of the NHS.The Bury St Edmunds whistleblowing scandal I quoted the Guardian story.
The use of full time contractors at two or three times the cost of regular employees.
Edited by Evanivitch on Wednesday 20th July 09:04
Whatever examples you're given you'll call anecdotal.
BTW contractors working parallel to payroll are in every Trust in the country.
Weak troll.
V6 Pushfit said:
coyft said:
V6 Pushfit said:
Tens of thousands of hip/knee/heart/spine. I can count at least 50 theatres in the hospitals I deal with through work that run 6 days a week continuously. No cosmetic at all.
How many of those are paid for by the NHS?It’s not a 2-tier system, millions have health insurance and if the private hospitals can be efficient as businesses do can the NHS.
Edited by V6 Pushfit on Wednesday 20th July 09:42
Largechris said:
Evanivitch said:
Largechris said:
I will try again
The Bury St Edmunds whistleblowing scandal I quoted the Guardian story.
The use of full time contractors at two or three times the cost of regular employees.
Unsurprising that an Engineer of your "calibre" considers such limited data points and anecdotal evidence to be representative of the NHS.The Bury St Edmunds whistleblowing scandal I quoted the Guardian story.
The use of full time contractors at two or three times the cost of regular employees.
Edited by Evanivitch on Wednesday 20th July 09:04
Whatever examples you're given you'll call anecdotal.
BTW contractors working parallel to payroll are in every Trust in the country.
Weak troll.
Longy00000 said:
I believe the NHS is well funded but also has a legacy culture that cannot get itself into the modern world.
A significant union involvement often prevents change and creates a self perpetuating culture of self entitlement.
I am close to rhe NHS via family who work there and they often refer to " no one ever gets sacked by the NHS " largely because the union go stomping in as soon as anyone is told to stop swinging the lead so to speak. This leaves some management totally ineffective and this then spirals down.
Yes its a great service but it also needs to be modernised and being modernised shouldn't be seen as having a go at the current staff just that some of their current practices are quite unbelievably wasteful.
Private hospitals also have the ability to refuse complex and high risk surgeries that may cause further delays...A significant union involvement often prevents change and creates a self perpetuating culture of self entitlement.
I am close to rhe NHS via family who work there and they often refer to " no one ever gets sacked by the NHS " largely because the union go stomping in as soon as anyone is told to stop swinging the lead so to speak. This leaves some management totally ineffective and this then spirals down.
Yes its a great service but it also needs to be modernised and being modernised shouldn't be seen as having a go at the current staff just that some of their current practices are quite unbelievably wasteful.
Plenty of people get sacked by the NHS. The difference is that often those that are sacked will be removed from their professional register for a period of time or permanently, and so sacking someone purely because of non-safety related performance is somewhat complex. It is an issue in management and non clinical roles, but not unique to state-operated employers.
It's easy to put the NHS down, but there are a lot more good stories than bad.
My example illustrates this.
49 year old male, felt poorly while cycling (chest pain), otherwise fit and healthy.
Went to see G.P. and listened to my heart, said something sounded funny and made me an appointment with the rapid chest pain clinic. This took about two weeks to come through and was for the following week.
Saw a specialist nurse, who again listened, explained what she thought was the issue and organised an echocardoigram. This came through about two weeks later and was for about two weeks after the letter.
Had my echo, which show a bicuspid Aortic valve and required surgery to replace it. Not the sort of news you want with two young children.
Follow up tests were done quite quickly and I saw my surgeon in July 2019, with the op then done in Oct 2019. All in from G.P. apt to op was 5 months.
I was in the BRI in Bristol and cannot fault anyone at all, from cleaners to ward staff. The compassion and professionalism was overwhelming for both me and my family. As a grown man being washed and shaved by a nurse , because I was too ill to do it myself and she wanted me to look good for my wife, is something I will never forget.
There may be faults, but let's not forget the good they do too.
My example illustrates this.
49 year old male, felt poorly while cycling (chest pain), otherwise fit and healthy.
Went to see G.P. and listened to my heart, said something sounded funny and made me an appointment with the rapid chest pain clinic. This took about two weeks to come through and was for the following week.
Saw a specialist nurse, who again listened, explained what she thought was the issue and organised an echocardoigram. This came through about two weeks later and was for about two weeks after the letter.
Had my echo, which show a bicuspid Aortic valve and required surgery to replace it. Not the sort of news you want with two young children.
Follow up tests were done quite quickly and I saw my surgeon in July 2019, with the op then done in Oct 2019. All in from G.P. apt to op was 5 months.
I was in the BRI in Bristol and cannot fault anyone at all, from cleaners to ward staff. The compassion and professionalism was overwhelming for both me and my family. As a grown man being washed and shaved by a nurse , because I was too ill to do it myself and she wanted me to look good for my wife, is something I will never forget.
There may be faults, but let's not forget the good they do too.
A lot of these stories come from pre pandemic days, it's gotten a lot worse since 2020 hasn't it.
Staff shortages are a problem,bed blocking,increased population,there is no 1 cause.
Until there is cross party and union agreement on policy I can't see any way it will improve and that's highly unlikely to happen
Staff shortages are a problem,bed blocking,increased population,there is no 1 cause.
Until there is cross party and union agreement on policy I can't see any way it will improve and that's highly unlikely to happen
Largechris said:
Entirely predictable non answer.
Whatever examples you're given you'll call anecdotal.
BTW contractors working parallel to payroll are in every Trust in the country.
Weak troll.
But your examples are anecdotes. Don't shoot the messenger. And you don't have to rely on anecdotes because organisations like the Kings Fund, plenty of think tanks and academics do actually look at these issues properly and publish reports of their findings and recommendations. Read them.Whatever examples you're given you'll call anecdotal.
BTW contractors working parallel to payroll are in every Trust in the country.
Weak troll.
As to the use of contractors and agency staff, when there's a skills shortage in the a section of the labour market its the workers that dictate the terms on which they'll work, not the employers. If the NHS could hire more nurses on permanent contracts, it would. But nurses know they'll get paid more and have greater flexibility is they work for the NHS via an agency, so guess what they choose to do? The only thing the NHS could do to change that outcome is to pay nurses far more, which they neither want to do (because they're hoping that there will be an increase of supply in the labour market, and inflated salaries are sticky) nor can they afford to do it in the short run anyway.
TGCOTF-dewey said:
V6 Pushfit said:
coyft said:
V6 Pushfit said:
Tens of thousands of hip/knee/heart/spine. I can count at least 50 theatres in the hospitals I deal with through work that run 6 days a week continuously. No cosmetic at all.
How many of those are paid for by the NHS?It’s not a 2-tier system, millions have health insurance and if the private hospitals can be efficient as businesses so can the NHS.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 20th July 09:42
One example: a Thames valley hospital with 120 rooms for day care was leased by the NHS during Covid. Prior to this every room was in use and often several times a day. Bang-bang-bang and off you go after a minor op.
I’m the 3 months that the NHS were there a maximum was 14 rooms in use.
V6 Pushfit said:
That’s why I said efficient. They are efficient, well run and regard communication as vital rather than hiding by the coffee machine letting the phone ring off the hook.
One example: a Thames valley hospital with 120 rooms for day care was leased by the NHS during Covid. Prior to this every room was in use and often several times a day. Bang-bang-bang and off you go after a minor op.
I’m the 3 months that the NHS were there a maximum was 14 rooms in use.
You're not getting the point... They're only efficient because they deal with bits that are easy to be efficient.One example: a Thames valley hospital with 120 rooms for day care was leased by the NHS during Covid. Prior to this every room was in use and often several times a day. Bang-bang-bang and off you go after a minor op.
I’m the 3 months that the NHS were there a maximum was 14 rooms in use.
They'd be no more efficient working under the same constraints as the NHS does.
V6 Pushfit said:
My own experience is pretty much that of OP.
No one takes ownership of the patients health issue and the many great nurses that do exist are swamped by others who just go with the flow and that flow is ultra inefficient and ineffective. Things don’t get done, get done twice, get forgotten, and with multiple shift changes and lack of communication this all leads to way less than any standard we expect.
The whole GP situation is the same, they’re still hiding behind phone consultations and fobbing off. 3+ weeks for an appointment unless you can prove to the receptionist in a ten minute persuasion exercise that your knob has gone blue then you get it the same day. Goodness knows how the meek ever get seen. If any more effort is needed by the practice to improve from abysmal I have no doubt they will be demanding more funding.
I’m really sorry to be saying this, but it reflects my own experiences. My view on those that are happy with their treatment: you were very lucky.
And mine. Indeed, i have several friends that work within the NHS and their opinion is that it's not underfunded but completely mis-managed. Same with GP's. I have no positive experiences of either.No one takes ownership of the patients health issue and the many great nurses that do exist are swamped by others who just go with the flow and that flow is ultra inefficient and ineffective. Things don’t get done, get done twice, get forgotten, and with multiple shift changes and lack of communication this all leads to way less than any standard we expect.
The whole GP situation is the same, they’re still hiding behind phone consultations and fobbing off. 3+ weeks for an appointment unless you can prove to the receptionist in a ten minute persuasion exercise that your knob has gone blue then you get it the same day. Goodness knows how the meek ever get seen. If any more effort is needed by the practice to improve from abysmal I have no doubt they will be demanding more funding.
I’m really sorry to be saying this, but it reflects my own experiences. My view on those that are happy with their treatment: you were very lucky.
V6 Pushfit said:
That’s why I said efficient. They are efficient, well run and regard communication as vital rather than hiding by the coffee machine letting the phone ring off the hook.
One example: a Thames valley hospital with 120 rooms for day care was leased by the NHS during Covid. Prior to this every room was in use and often several times a day. Bang-bang-bang and off you go after a minor op.
I’m the 3 months that the NHS were there a maximum was 14 rooms in use.
Are you comparing apples with apples?One example: a Thames valley hospital with 120 rooms for day care was leased by the NHS during Covid. Prior to this every room was in use and often several times a day. Bang-bang-bang and off you go after a minor op.
I’m the 3 months that the NHS were there a maximum was 14 rooms in use.
The private stuff you've described is all simple elective work that is easy to schedule so it's no surprise that occupancy rates were continuously high.
What were the beds being used for by the NHS? If, for example, it were for actual COVID patients, you wouldn't expect the beds to be full unless the system was getting overwhelmed.
ATG said:
V6 Pushfit said:
That’s why I said efficient. They are efficient, well run and regard communication as vital rather than hiding by the coffee machine letting the phone ring off the hook.
One example: a Thames valley hospital with 120 rooms for day care was leased by the NHS during Covid. Prior to this every room was in use and often several times a day. Bang-bang-bang and off you go after a minor op.
I’m the 3 months that the NHS were there a maximum was 14 rooms in use.
Are you comparing apples with apples?One example: a Thames valley hospital with 120 rooms for day care was leased by the NHS during Covid. Prior to this every room was in use and often several times a day. Bang-bang-bang and off you go after a minor op.
I’m the 3 months that the NHS were there a maximum was 14 rooms in use.
The private stuff you've described is all simple elective work that is easy to schedule so it's no surprise that occupancy rates were continuously high.
What were the beds being used for by the NHS? If, for example, it were for actual COVID patients, you wouldn't expect the beds to be full unless the system was getting overwhelmed.
Gassing Station | Health Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff