Vettel and traction control?
Discussion
It just smacks of sour grapes from someone no longer in the sport. This week's Autosport mentions the 2-sec gap and highlights that it's not a fair comparison given Seb was running in clear air whereas all the other drivers were hindered by running behind drivers who were slow and managing their tyres far more conservatively. Of course it's possible, but not probable.
TC is an absolute rule (ie there is or isn't TC), whereas the wing mentioned above wasn't. The legislation for that stated it needed to pass a particular test, and therefore the wing was designed to pass that test. Whether the test is sufficient to ensure that the spirit of the rule is enforced is down to the FIA; the team can only pass the tests prescribed.
TC is an absolute rule (ie there is or isn't TC), whereas the wing mentioned above wasn't. The legislation for that stated it needed to pass a particular test, and therefore the wing was designed to pass that test. Whether the test is sufficient to ensure that the spirit of the rule is enforced is down to the FIA; the team can only pass the tests prescribed.
Rude-boy said:
Composite Guru said:
I think people should stop cussing this bloke and move on. Do you really think its in Red Bulls interest to cheat to win a championship? If they were cheating and got found out then they would be finished in F1 imo.
I would agree with your first statement. I can't see Red Bull cheating with this system, although I do think that they are very often walking a tightrope that others less well ingratiated, would have fallen off by now.On the second part I do not agree at all. History has shown those ‘outside’ the inner circle that people can cheat and get away with it so long as they can’t be caught (flexi wings where the test was not ‘strong’ enough to prove the non compliance with the rule despite anyone with a pair of eyes knowing that they were in breach) or the governing entities, for reasons of their own, aren’t interested in imposing penalties (Benetton’s TC).
Part of the issue is that if there was any issue even if you found it and could prove it, then you have to face the fact that one e-mail sent from Austria would remove 4 cars from the grid at a stroke.
Saying that they would be caught out nowadays is whistling in the wind. Testers react, cheaters always have the whip-hand. On top of that, what could be called corruption is hardly unknown in the FIA. The teams are looking for ways to cheat all the time. This is like the Armstrong days of cycling. As he cheated, everyone else had to in order to even be an also ran.
To say that the FIA didn't know about the Benetton traction/launch control would be farcical. The removal of the fuel filter, giving much faster pit stops, must have been noticed yet nothing was done until the fire. And then nothing was done.
If the teams can find a way to cheat where they will not be detected, they will.
Megaflow said:
scrwright said:
Megaflow said:
Aside from all the points about whether the SECU will support TC, the FIA monitoring useage, etc there is the bigger question as to why you'd want traction control on the way *into* a corner...
maximum kers harvesting without lockup?I am not a Vettel fan at all, but this is ridiculous.
this also has the effect of using engine power to charge KERS, something that's not supposed to be done.
10 Pence Short said:
I was under the impression KERS can only be used for so many seconds per lap? I've never heard of Red Bull struggling to generate enough charge to use for the maximum time.
that's discharging KERSthe issue has always been in charging it during braking, it's very hard to maintain a brake balance when KERS is only harvested off the rears, hence why in a qually lap, they usually don't harvest KERS at all.
I would be surprised if RB didn't have something up their sleeve that pushes the rules to the maximum...but the other teams aren't commenting so...
A colleague at work follows the F1 on TV but doesn't do forums or anything like that. He's been saying for ages that "Vettel has TC" because of the way that he can seemingly plant his right foot that bit earlier than anyone else and romp away under full tanks at a second a lap when he he wasn't qualifying with much advantage.
Me? I dunno. Vettel is undeniably very good, and the car is very good. But to be able to walk away at a second a lap, seemingly at will, when he couldnt earlier in the season raises my suspicions somewhat. Not enough to suggest any foul play though...
A colleague at work follows the F1 on TV but doesn't do forums or anything like that. He's been saying for ages that "Vettel has TC" because of the way that he can seemingly plant his right foot that bit earlier than anyone else and romp away under full tanks at a second a lap when he he wasn't qualifying with much advantage.
Me? I dunno. Vettel is undeniably very good, and the car is very good. But to be able to walk away at a second a lap, seemingly at will, when he couldnt earlier in the season raises my suspicions somewhat. Not enough to suggest any foul play though...
The problem is that of the set up is as good as suspected, vettel CAN just plant his foot where noone else can. If he's not generating wheelspin, he then doesn't have the thermal deg others have - it's a catch 22.
If vettel had tc, why is he not dominant in wet / inter? That's when he would shine brightest.
However, in the inter, it's button and alonso that shine, not vettel.
Tl;dr? I don't think he has tc.
If vettel had tc, why is he not dominant in wet / inter? That's when he would shine brightest.
However, in the inter, it's button and alonso that shine, not vettel.
Tl;dr? I don't think he has tc.
if he has it now, he didn't at Silverstone. I was just the other (the right!!!) side of the debris fence at Club and all the engines sounded pretty much identical, as they have done since 2010. As I (and others) have said before, the diffuser works so well that he is able to plant his foot way before the apex. The car is tuned to his driving and vice versa, which is why Webber is unable to get near him. With exhaust blowing pretty much impossible to achieve next year, it will be interesting to see whether his advantage is eroded.
there's other ways of implemeting TC without cutting the engine...
you could use the KERS harvesting function to reduce power to the wheels momentarily to quell wheelspin...
this combined with engine modulated KERS harvesting under brakes would make a significant difference to the rear tyre wear
you could use the KERS harvesting function to reduce power to the wheels momentarily to quell wheelspin...
this combined with engine modulated KERS harvesting under brakes would make a significant difference to the rear tyre wear
Inertiatic said:
I would be surprised if RB didn't have something up their sleeve that pushes the rules to the maximum...but the other teams aren't commenting so...
A colleague at work follows the F1 on TV but doesn't do forums or anything like that. He's been saying for ages that "Vettel has TC" because of the way that he can seemingly plant his right foot that bit earlier than anyone else and romp away under full tanks at a second a lap when he he wasn't qualifying with much advantage.
Me? I dunno. Vettel is undeniably very good, and the car is very good. But to be able to walk away at a second a lap, seemingly at will, when he couldnt earlier in the season raises my suspicions somewhat. Not enough to suggest any foul play though...
Vettel, in a car setup to his preference, gets on the power a lot earlier than Webber but it's his style of driving; induce some into the corner oversteer and correct it (counter-intuitively) by accelerating early using the blown exhaust gases. It's gonna sound different to Webber's car. A colleague at work follows the F1 on TV but doesn't do forums or anything like that. He's been saying for ages that "Vettel has TC" because of the way that he can seemingly plant his right foot that bit earlier than anyone else and romp away under full tanks at a second a lap when he he wasn't qualifying with much advantage.
Me? I dunno. Vettel is undeniably very good, and the car is very good. But to be able to walk away at a second a lap, seemingly at will, when he couldnt earlier in the season raises my suspicions somewhat. Not enough to suggest any foul play though...
Webber was stuck in traffic so his pace was traffic limited.
James Allen has a good article on this on his blog.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/09/analysis-vet...
F1 is about taking the 'rules' to the limit or taking them in another definition i.e a team using them in the way they think they should be used.
Vettel has off the line pace this gets him a clear advantage from not having dirty air for the first laps which catapults him ahead, this with his skill which no one can deny gives him a major advantage/ win.
Red bull got this over pasts years with those heated metal doughnuts which got all the major wheel/ hub components upto temp more so than the rest of the field.....along with some other tweeks no doubt.
I wouldn't dismiss any traction control trickery, whether its hidden or just made to work without being detected within the data, they might have another way of making it work but i struggle to believe one driver is this much better than the rest or on another note his team mates car is so much slower?
Vettel has off the line pace this gets him a clear advantage from not having dirty air for the first laps which catapults him ahead, this with his skill which no one can deny gives him a major advantage/ win.
Red bull got this over pasts years with those heated metal doughnuts which got all the major wheel/ hub components upto temp more so than the rest of the field.....along with some other tweeks no doubt.
I wouldn't dismiss any traction control trickery, whether its hidden or just made to work without being detected within the data, they might have another way of making it work but i struggle to believe one driver is this much better than the rest or on another note his team mates car is so much slower?
Simon Arron pointed out in his Grand Prix Diary http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/singapore-gra... that RBR were the most nimble in the first 3 corners. By that logic its no surprise Seb get the upper hand somewhere on the track.
As been pointed Webber struggles to get the best out of his car. If you saw his best quali lap you would've notice how nervous he was at hitting his apexes in the last sector.
As been pointed Webber struggles to get the best out of his car. If you saw his best quali lap you would've notice how nervous he was at hitting his apexes in the last sector.
I have always been of the belief that every single car on the grid has something illegal on it, whether it be intentional or not, direct or indirect.
Thing is, it's never black and white. What is the definition of traction control for example? There are many ways of achieving it, either partly or fully.
I actually think in many ways, it's easier now to hide clever systems within the increasingly complexities of the cars.
Does the red bull have some advantageous systems that others don't have? You betcha. Are they legal? Harder to answer.
It's passed the tests, so it's legal,
Thing is, it's never black and white. What is the definition of traction control for example? There are many ways of achieving it, either partly or fully.
I actually think in many ways, it's easier now to hide clever systems within the increasingly complexities of the cars.
Does the red bull have some advantageous systems that others don't have? You betcha. Are they legal? Harder to answer.
It's passed the tests, so it's legal,
It crossed my mind too.
Would it be possible with the off of the shelf McLaren/Microsoft MEMS ECU?
Someone said last year, was it Anthony Davidson, or someone said it to him that Vettel works better with the blown floor, and that's one of the reasons Vettel caught up Webber over last season. It was the changes made to the blown floor.
Does Vettel's technique get explained there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un0a2ktqFOw
Would it be possible with the off of the shelf McLaren/Microsoft MEMS ECU?
Someone said last year, was it Anthony Davidson, or someone said it to him that Vettel works better with the blown floor, and that's one of the reasons Vettel caught up Webber over last season. It was the changes made to the blown floor.
Does Vettel's technique get explained there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un0a2ktqFOw
Scuffers said:
yes, but combine that with max kers harvesting, and that's exactly what it would be, ABS for Kers at full recovery rate (ie, you blip the engine to prevent lockup caused by KERS)
this also has the effect of using engine power to charge KERS, something that's not supposed to be done.
Correct. So it isn't traction control. TC would be cutting engine power to reduce wheel spin. Powering the engine to reduce locking during KERS harvesting would be ABS, or a form of.this also has the effect of using engine power to charge KERS, something that's not supposed to be done.
So, the video has nothing to do with Vettel using traction control as it shows him on the way into a corner.
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