The decline of manual values
Discussion
CRA1G said:
Interesting weekend,while talking about Manual's. As said i had the New M2 out yesterday for a good fun drive which gave me a smile for every mile and for 450+ BHP it is a hoot to drive... Today got the Z4M Coupe out for near on the same drive as yesterday with a naturally assparatied 330+ BHP it's totally different,it's bloody hard work,but still a smile a mile it certainly shows technology has changed even with the good old Manual gearboxes,the ZMC still feels quicker which dangerously means the M2 could easily catch you out because it is seriously more powerful..
Wether permitting E46 M3 Manual out next weekend...
I had a blast across my favourite back road earlier in the manual 370Z, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. However I did notice how much more planted the DCT F82 M4 is at high speeds in comparison though. You can feel the body/chassis moving around a lot more in the 370 at the higher speeds...probably not helped because it is the Roadster version though! Wether permitting E46 M3 Manual out next weekend...
Leon R said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
dontlookdown said:
No doubt in my mind that modern autos are very good indeed.
Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
This is an entirely sensible post. "I know autos are better but I prefer manuals". How can anyone argue with that. I know CDs and streaming are better but I prefer vinyl. Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
Sometimes, doing more work for a lesser result is just satisfying. Personally, I don't think it is with driving, so I'm auto all the way, but if someone else isn't just fine. My kids look at me playing my vinyl and think I'm crackers.
There a huge benefits to CDs and streaming over vinyl, but I don't care.
Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Sunday 12th May 17:22
That's very true - and holding it so that you didn't touch the grooves. Getting a new LP in the 70s was quite special, not least because of the price. CDs are a good compromise for me, mainly as I hate LPs' crackle. MP3 is on a par with having the radio on.
I do get why, for similar reasonings, people would want a manual with an old car. But I do think people often don't try to get the best out of an auto.
I do get why, for similar reasonings, people would want a manual with an old car. But I do think people often don't try to get the best out of an auto.
Apologies if it has already been said, but town driving suits an auto much better than a manual, and the majority of the UK population spends a lot of time in traffic due to the number of cars on the road and the lack of decent public transport.
I still have and drive both, but notice myself chosing the auto with cruise control for longer journeys.
I still have and drive both, but notice myself chosing the auto with cruise control for longer journeys.
MC Bodge said:
1. Manual gearboxes are now a bit of an anachronism, but for people who have driven with them for decades and developed reasonable competency and skill at their use, they are perfectly fine. It becomes pretty much a reflex. For able-bodied people, it is just something that they can do. It isn't particularly difficult for them.
2. A manual box allows full choice over the gears without a complex control system.
3. I'm not sure what this "100% right" thing is that you are talking about. Is "100% right" even necessary? Few of us are racing, as far as I am aware.
1. That's me. Driven with them for decades, reasonably competent at it, muscle memory etc, but they're not fine. They are inefficient and a complete anachronism imo. OK for a bit of fun but I think now very hard to take seriously against what is available nowadays. 2. A manual box allows full choice over the gears without a complex control system.
3. I'm not sure what this "100% right" thing is that you are talking about. Is "100% right" even necessary? Few of us are racing, as far as I am aware.
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 12th May 13:41
2. I often think that when the car in front of me stalls.
I disagree with "full control" I think the drive to the driven wheels is disconnected too much and too often. I do agree with the complex control comment though.
3. It was in response to a biker saying getting gearchanges 100% right is a necessary skill.
Forester1965 said:
The only two reasons you'd want a manual box are cost and pleasure (assuming you enjoy changing gear). If it's about the objective best way to go from A to B, automatics are the obvious choice.
Not sure where you're getting this objective thing from - but crack on with your subjectivity.heebeegeetee said:
MC Bodge said:
1. Manual gearboxes are now a bit of an anachronism, but for people who have driven with them for decades and developed reasonable competency and skill at their use, they are perfectly fine. It becomes pretty much a reflex. For able-bodied people, it is just something that they can do. It isn't particularly difficult for them.
2. A manual box allows full choice over the gears without a complex control system.
3. I'm not sure what this "100% right" thing is that you are talking about. Is "100% right" even necessary? Few of us are racing, as far as I am aware.
1. That's me. Driven with them for decades, reasonably competent at it, muscle memory etc, but they're not fine. They are inefficient and a complete anachronism imo. OK for a bit of fun but I think now very hard to take seriously against what is available nowadays. 2. A manual box allows full choice over the gears without a complex control system.
3. I'm not sure what this "100% right" thing is that you are talking about. Is "100% right" even necessary? Few of us are racing, as far as I am aware.
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 12th May 13:41
2. I often think that when the car in front of me stalls.
I disagree with "full control" I think the drive to the driven wheels is disconnected too much and too often. I do agree with the complex control comment though.
3. It was in response to a biker saying getting gearchanges 100% right is a necessary skill.
Why can a manual gearbox not be taken seriously now? In what sense? I actually used the word "anachronism" myself before you did.
I'm not against automatic gearboxes at all -why are we being expected to be joining polar opposite tribes?
Some of the posts in this thread are almost suggesting that driving a manual is somehow very difficult and that an automatic gearbox is far more effective for ordinary driving. It might be easier, but using a manual is not difficult for the millions of people who have learned the skill.
heebeegeetee said:
Yahonza said:
Manual gearboxes are far from being obsolete.
I actually wonder if they're now really only used by old people. Yahonza said:
Not sure where you're getting this objective thing from - but crack on with your subjectivity.
They don't require manual intervention. They're more fuel efficient. They don't wear out a clutch. They don't require skill to work optimally. Objectively they're 'better'.
For me that's overriden by the fact subjectively I prefer operating a manual gearbox (in the right circumstances).
MC Bodge said:
Manual gearboxes are not fine?? Ok. Let me scrap my car now.
Why can a manual gearbox not be taken seriously now? In what sense? I actually used the word "anachronism" myself before you did.
I'm not against automatic gearboxes at all -why are we being expected to be joining polar opposite tribes?
Some of the posts in this thread are almost suggesting that driving a manual is somehow very difficult and that an automatic gearbox is far more effective for ordinary driving. It might be easier, but using a manual is not difficult for the millions of people who have learned the skill.
I don't think people are saying it's difficult, it's just easier with an auto. Why can a manual gearbox not be taken seriously now? In what sense? I actually used the word "anachronism" myself before you did.
I'm not against automatic gearboxes at all -why are we being expected to be joining polar opposite tribes?
Some of the posts in this thread are almost suggesting that driving a manual is somehow very difficult and that an automatic gearbox is far more effective for ordinary driving. It might be easier, but using a manual is not difficult for the millions of people who have learned the skill.
As a society, we are constantly making/buying/doing things that make our lives easier e.g. home automation, online shopping, paying for stuff with your phone etc. An automatic car makes driving easier/less effort and the car still does the same thing, i.e. gets from A to B, as it would've, had it had manual gears.
As roads get more congested, it's a no brainer to move to auto. After about 20 years of driving a manual, my last 10 or so years of automatics have been brilliant. If I lived somewhere less congested then I may have a different view but in current circumstances, I'd never want another manual again.
heebeegeetee said:
I actually wonder if they're now really only used by old people.
Quite the opposite, lots of young people will still be driving mainly cheaper manual cars.My observation is it's frequently old/fat/lazy ex car enthusiasts that moan about manuals being too much hard work.
Olivera said:
Quite the opposite, lots of young people will still be driving mainly cheaper manual cars.
My observation is it's frequently old/fat/lazy ex car enthusiasts that moan about manuals being too much hard work.
I had wondered if it was some people with physical problems that were being so evangelical about automatic boxes.My observation is it's frequently old/fat/lazy ex car enthusiasts that moan about manuals being too much hard work.
Olivera said:
Quite the opposite, lots of young people will still be driving mainly cheaper manual cars.
My observation is it's frequently old/fat/lazy ex car enthusiasts that moan about manuals being too much hard work.
A cursory glance at the vehicles on my street shows more than 2/3rds of them manual transmission.My observation is it's frequently old/fat/lazy ex car enthusiasts that moan about manuals being too much hard work.
Not to mention most rental cars are invariably manual transmission, at least in the non executive categories.
PH being somewhat in a bubble as is often the case.
heebeegeetee said:
GravelBen said:
I don't know that I'd agree - surely 'ordinary' cars auto boxes and control software are more likely to be compromised by cost cutting than a more expensive luxury or performance car, so the ordinary car is the one more likely to have frustrating delayed response or get caught hunting between gears etc.
The three autos I've driven of late, and in the past, have been very minimal with that. I think I find the manual more frustrating. Tbf it's a diesel, and this car has highlighted that diesel manuals are really not great.It was much better than 10+ year old old autos I've owned/driven, but the response was still delayed and indirect enough to mildly irritate me. It wasn't terrible by any means, and I expect you would adapt to drive around its shortcomings, but it was enough to influence my decision to order a manual one.
Contrary to the frequent 'autos are more efficient' comments, in that particular case the official figure was actually 2mpg better for the manual than the auto. The figure for the new hybrid auto is about the same as the non-hybrid manual.
Edited by GravelBen on Sunday 12th May 21:45
GravelBen said:
My most recent example was test driving an auto Hilux a month or so back to help decide between auto and manual for a new work ute.
It was much better than 10+ year old old autos I've owned/driven, but the response was still delayed and indirect enough to mildly irritate me. It wasn't terrible by any means, and I expect you would adapt to drive around its shortcomings, but it was enough to influence my decision to order a manual one.
Contrary to the frequent 'autos are more efficient' comments, in that particular case the official figure was actually 2mpg better for the manual than the auto. The figure for the new hybrid auto is about the same as the non-hybrid manual.
No, no,no.It was much better than 10+ year old old autos I've owned/driven, but the response was still delayed and indirect enough to mildly irritate me. It wasn't terrible by any means, and I expect you would adapt to drive around its shortcomings, but it was enough to influence my decision to order a manual one.
Contrary to the frequent 'autos are more efficient' comments, in that particular case the official figure was actually 2mpg better for the manual than the auto. The figure for the new hybrid auto is about the same as the non-hybrid manual.
Edited by GravelBen on Sunday 12th May 21:45
You must decide which tribe you belong to (hint: it must be automatic transmissions on geriatric PH nowadays) and then spend time slagging off the alternative as totally unworkable and, in fact, virtually impossible.
You cannot have an intermediate position.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff