The decline of manual values
Discussion
MC Bodge said:
No, no,no.
You must decide which tribe you belong to (hint: it must be automatic transmissions on geriatric PH nowadays) and then spend time slagging off the alternative as totally unworkable and, in fact, virtually impossible.
You cannot have an intermediate position.
You must decide which tribe you belong to (hint: it must be automatic transmissions on geriatric PH nowadays) and then spend time slagging off the alternative as totally unworkable and, in fact, virtually impossible.
You cannot have an intermediate position.
I was 65 last month so heading for geriatric - but it has to be manual for me.
Even though all the lazy Auto fans tell me otherwise!
My last manual car was a Ferrari which was nice with the whole clicky clacky thing going through the open gate.
Since then, it's been McLarens and the unbelievable speed that the paddles change up and down ( especially as how either paddle can change up or down ) is outrageous.
Keep it in auto for town driving is perfect, and it's never ever caught out whenever a quick burst of speed is needed.
The PDK on my 7mth old 992 GTS feels like a generation behind it, and definitely notably slower.
With noticing the slower PDK auto box, i cannot phathom why anyone would want a manual in this day and age; to me it would be like a major step back in time.
Interestingly, Porsche are reluctant to bid on 992 manuals as they are now trickiest move on, contrary to what the Porsche manual purists on here say.
My 2 young lads wouldn't go back to manuals and they are only 24 and 22. (M4 comp & C63s).
Just my tuppence worth; each to their own though.
Since then, it's been McLarens and the unbelievable speed that the paddles change up and down ( especially as how either paddle can change up or down ) is outrageous.
Keep it in auto for town driving is perfect, and it's never ever caught out whenever a quick burst of speed is needed.
The PDK on my 7mth old 992 GTS feels like a generation behind it, and definitely notably slower.
With noticing the slower PDK auto box, i cannot phathom why anyone would want a manual in this day and age; to me it would be like a major step back in time.
Interestingly, Porsche are reluctant to bid on 992 manuals as they are now trickiest move on, contrary to what the Porsche manual purists on here say.
My 2 young lads wouldn't go back to manuals and they are only 24 and 22. (M4 comp & C63s).
Just my tuppence worth; each to their own though.
MC Bodge said:
Manual gearboxes are not fine?? Ok. Let me scrap my car now.
Why can a manual gearbox not be taken seriously now? In what sense? I actually used the word "anachronism" myself before you did.
I'm not against automatic gearboxes at all -why are we being expected to be joining polar opposite tribes?
Some of the posts in this thread are almost suggesting that driving a manual is somehow very difficult and that an automatic gearbox is far more effective for ordinary driving. It might be easier, but using a manual is not difficult for the millions of people who have learned the skill.
Nobody is talking about scrapping cars.Why can a manual gearbox not be taken seriously now? In what sense? I actually used the word "anachronism" myself before you did.
I'm not against automatic gearboxes at all -why are we being expected to be joining polar opposite tribes?
Some of the posts in this thread are almost suggesting that driving a manual is somehow very difficult and that an automatic gearbox is far more effective for ordinary driving. It might be easier, but using a manual is not difficult for the millions of people who have learned the skill.
I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
heebeegeetee said:
MC Bodge said:
Manual gearboxes are not fine?? Ok. Let me scrap my car now.
Why can a manual gearbox not be taken seriously now? In what sense? I actually used the word "anachronism" myself before you did.
I'm not against automatic gearboxes at all -why are we being expected to be joining polar opposite tribes?
Some of the posts in this thread are almost suggesting that driving a manual is somehow very difficult and that an automatic gearbox is far more effective for ordinary driving. It might be easier, but using a manual is not difficult for the millions of people who have learned the skill.
Nobody is talking about scrapping cars.Why can a manual gearbox not be taken seriously now? In what sense? I actually used the word "anachronism" myself before you did.
I'm not against automatic gearboxes at all -why are we being expected to be joining polar opposite tribes?
Some of the posts in this thread are almost suggesting that driving a manual is somehow very difficult and that an automatic gearbox is far more effective for ordinary driving. It might be easier, but using a manual is not difficult for the millions of people who have learned the skill.
I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
In what way is the manual gearbox "Frustrating"?
Isn’t all this discussion a bit of a moot point, it’s inevitable that auto will rule.
As soon as driver tuition cars have to be electric the next generation won’t have been taught to drive a manual.
As it stands just now they won’t have a license category to be able to even try and drive one, although you have to think they might scrap that restriction.
At that point they become severely for the minority and over time as the generations progress they will generally die out, like the people left that can drive them.
Re the effect on values, interesting to see what effect that this will have on cars long term values, Bland cars will be worthless scrap and potentially even sports cars will suffer as the pool of buyers will effectively get smaller and smaller to the point they will be useless.
As soon as driver tuition cars have to be electric the next generation won’t have been taught to drive a manual.
As it stands just now they won’t have a license category to be able to even try and drive one, although you have to think they might scrap that restriction.
At that point they become severely for the minority and over time as the generations progress they will generally die out, like the people left that can drive them.
Re the effect on values, interesting to see what effect that this will have on cars long term values, Bland cars will be worthless scrap and potentially even sports cars will suffer as the pool of buyers will effectively get smaller and smaller to the point they will be useless.
heebeegeetee said:
Nobody is talking about scrapping cars.
I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
What car is it?I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
Olivera said:
heebeegeetee said:
I actually wonder if they're now really only used by old people.
Quite the opposite, lots of young people will still be driving mainly cheaper manual cars.My observation is it's frequently old/fat/lazy ex car enthusiasts that moan about manuals being too much hard work.
Just my own experiences.
They both have their place and I'm fine with either. I like manuals in small light cars (and bikes), I like autos in bigger cars. But these are not firm rules.
One thing that I do feel a little bothered by is when watching very fast cars launch and fire through a few gears. Just how easy they are with good electronics and a good auto box. When you see the driver able to do 3 second 0-60s while not concentrating on anything other than releasing the brake... That causes me a bit of conflict.
But, with the power and performance of some very fast modern cars, I also think it probably wise to allow the driver to fully focus on where they are going, and reducing the likelihood of the car reacting to a bad change etc. I'd also add that a bad manual can be its own kind of fun (trying to work out how to get the best out of it), but I do find old slow autos dull.
I'm not really adding anything to the debate, just sharing my thoughts and that I find plenty to enjoy in both.
One thing that I do feel a little bothered by is when watching very fast cars launch and fire through a few gears. Just how easy they are with good electronics and a good auto box. When you see the driver able to do 3 second 0-60s while not concentrating on anything other than releasing the brake... That causes me a bit of conflict.
But, with the power and performance of some very fast modern cars, I also think it probably wise to allow the driver to fully focus on where they are going, and reducing the likelihood of the car reacting to a bad change etc. I'd also add that a bad manual can be its own kind of fun (trying to work out how to get the best out of it), but I do find old slow autos dull.
I'm not really adding anything to the debate, just sharing my thoughts and that I find plenty to enjoy in both.
Wheelspinning said:
My last manual car was a Ferrari which was nice with the whole clicky clacky thing going through the open gate.
Since then, it's been McLarens and the unbelievable speed that the paddles change up and down ( especially as how either paddle can change up or down ) is outrageous.
Keep it in auto for town driving is perfect, and it's never ever caught out whenever a quick burst of speed is needed.
The PDK on my 7mth old 992 GTS feels like a generation behind it, and definitely notably slower.
With noticing the slower PDK auto box, i cannot phathom why anyone would want a manual in this day and age; to me it would be like a major step back in time.
Interestingly, Porsche are reluctant to bid on 992 manuals as they are now trickiest move on, contrary to what the Porsche manual purists on here say.
My 2 young lads wouldn't go back to manuals and they are only 24 and 22. (M4 comp & C63s).
Just my tuppence worth; each to their own though.
I really couldn’t fancy a manual gearbox on a McLaren. Given the rate of acceleration it’d be severely compromised with one.Since then, it's been McLarens and the unbelievable speed that the paddles change up and down ( especially as how either paddle can change up or down ) is outrageous.
Keep it in auto for town driving is perfect, and it's never ever caught out whenever a quick burst of speed is needed.
The PDK on my 7mth old 992 GTS feels like a generation behind it, and definitely notably slower.
With noticing the slower PDK auto box, i cannot phathom why anyone would want a manual in this day and age; to me it would be like a major step back in time.
Interestingly, Porsche are reluctant to bid on 992 manuals as they are now trickiest move on, contrary to what the Porsche manual purists on here say.
My 2 young lads wouldn't go back to manuals and they are only 24 and 22. (M4 comp & C63s).
Just my tuppence worth; each to their own though.
The only car I have that I like having a manual ‘box on is my GR Yaris, and it’s no coincidence that it’s by far the least powerful.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
but is now auto only. He's fully booked up.
Just my own experiences.
I'm sure this trend will continue, especially in urban areas. in the country it's far less prevalent as I found out trying to find a driving instructor with auto recently.Just my own experiences.
on a separate note I wonder how people will cope when they learn in an ev and their family only have evs. one foot driving is quite easy coming from ICE, the other way would be quite off-putting?
CABC said:
I'm sure this trend will continue, especially in urban areas. in the country it's far less prevalent as I found out trying to find a driving instructor with auto recently.
on a separate note I wonder how people will cope when they learn in an ev and their family only have evs. one foot driving is quite easy coming from ICE, the other way would be quite off-putting?
That's a good point. Whilst there are still a lot of non-EVs around, and manuals, there may be quite a number of new drivers who would be unable to drive them well.on a separate note I wonder how people will cope when they learn in an ev and their family only have evs. one foot driving is quite easy coming from ICE, the other way would be quite off-putting?
I will encourage my children in the next few years to learn to drive a manual first, just for the flexibility it will provide them in being able to drive different vehicles.
Perhaps somewhat vaguely explained, but does Preuninger mean that a PDK eats more horsepower than a manual?
I interpret it that way.
21:24
https://youtu.be/xsQ2xdtli2k?t=1279
If that's true, manuals are:
Cheaper
Less complicated
Lighter
Have less drivetrain losses
(I can imagine you want an auto/DCT in your McLaren 720S and similar hyper cars. Same with race/track cars)
I interpret it that way.
21:24
https://youtu.be/xsQ2xdtli2k?t=1279
If that's true, manuals are:
Cheaper
Less complicated
Lighter
Have less drivetrain losses
(I can imagine you want an auto/DCT in your McLaren 720S and similar hyper cars. Same with race/track cars)
ManualOnly said:
Perhaps somewhat vaguely explained, but does Preuninger mean that a PDK eats more horsepower than a manual?
I interpret it that way.
21:24
https://youtu.be/xsQ2xdtli2k?t=1279
If that's true, manuals are:
Cheaper
Less complicated
Lighter
Have less drivetrain losses
(I can imagine you want an auto/DCT in your McLaren 720S and similar hyper cars. Same with race/track cars)
You missed out:I interpret it that way.
21:24
https://youtu.be/xsQ2xdtli2k?t=1279
If that's true, manuals are:
Cheaper
Less complicated
Lighter
Have less drivetrain losses
(I can imagine you want an auto/DCT in your McLaren 720S and similar hyper cars. Same with race/track cars)
- absolutely slower
- extremely slower for the average driver
- excruciating in stop start traffic
- able to let the average driver abuse both the engine and the gearbox
BandOfBrothers said:
You missed out:
- absolutely slower
- extremely slower for the average driver
- excruciating in stop start traffic
- able to let the average driver abuse both the engine and the gearbox
Excruciating? - absolutely slower
- extremely slower for the average driver
- excruciating in stop start traffic
- able to let the average driver abuse both the engine and the gearbox
Someone wrap the poor baby in cotton wool, he might hurt his wee tootsies on the clutch pedal. Less relaxing sure, in a few cases a right nuisance, but for most cars its not that big a deal.Extremely slower? Also
, thanks captain hyperbole.Yes, a manual does require a little more basic competence and mechanical sympathy than an auto. But its not a very high threshold, its not long ago that practically every 'average driver' drove a manual day to day and thought nothing of it. If you genuinely think a manual gearbox is that difficult to operate (unless affected by injuries/disability) then maybe you should get some driving lessons.
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 15th May 00:56
heebeegeetee said:
Yahonza said:
Manual gearboxes are far from being obsolete.
I actually wonder if they're now really only used by old people. She doest hang around either...
As for me I'm on the "objectively automatics are better, but manuals more fun" camp. But I also think that about more or less any innovation after ABS tbh. Not even totally sold on power steering, never mind EPS.
Any decent driver should be perfectly capable of handling either.
GravelBen said:
BandOfBrothers said:
You missed out:
- absolutely slower
- extremely slower for the average driver
- excruciating in stop start traffic
- able to let the average driver abuse both the engine and the gearbox
Excruciating? - absolutely slower
- extremely slower for the average driver
- excruciating in stop start traffic
- able to let the average driver abuse both the engine and the gearbox
Someone wrap the poor baby in cotton wool, he might hurt his wee tootsies on the clutch pedal. Less relaxing sure, in a few cases a right nuisance, but for most cars its not that big a deal.Extremely slower? Also
, thanks captain hyperbole.Yes, a manual does require a little more basic competence and mechanical sympathy than an auto. But its not a very high threshold, its not long ago that practically every 'average driver' drove a manual day to day and thought nothing of it. If you genuinely think a manual gearbox is that difficult to operate (unless affected by injuries/disability) then maybe you should get some driving lessons.
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 15th May 00:56
I learnt to drive in a manual for car and auto for truck. Trucks haven't been manual for decades baring a few exceptions like loggers etc going on dirt.
I am a bit of a masochist and enjoy shifting down with heel toe and coasting up to a roundabout so really don't mind a manual in a road car. I live in the countryside so traffic isn't really a problem.
I understand I am a minority. My daughter will be learning to drive in September and will learn and have a manual as her first car. After that she can do what she wants.
I am a bit of a masochist and enjoy shifting down with heel toe and coasting up to a roundabout so really don't mind a manual in a road car. I live in the countryside so traffic isn't really a problem.
I understand I am a minority. My daughter will be learning to drive in September and will learn and have a manual as her first car. After that she can do what she wants.
I don't think manual values will decline relative to auto at all.
For anything remotely fast/interesting the manual option is already in the minority & has been for some time. Yet is still clearly seen as desirable.
Being technically slower or frustrating in traffic or whatever is irrelevant really, as ICE as a whole loses this to EV's anyway.
For anything remotely fast/interesting the manual option is already in the minority & has been for some time. Yet is still clearly seen as desirable.
Being technically slower or frustrating in traffic or whatever is irrelevant really, as ICE as a whole loses this to EV's anyway.
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