Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?

Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?

Author
Discussion

Dave Hedgehog

14,587 posts

205 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
stavers said:
It is correct depending upon which style of low energy bulbs that are being used. The "spiral" or "stick" type ones, which are still readily available, are the ones that give out the UV light. LED ones don't - hence why I tried to separate them out.

My experience with LED bulbs is very different from yours. Every one that I have installed (with the exception of the "filament" style one as mentioned) has failed in less time than a halogen and cost a small fortune (as you say, £7 each rather than 85p each that I paid for my last lot of halogen bulbs). That goes for both G9 and standard bayonet bulbs.
my landing bulb is a philips hue thats over 10 years old, it must have 25,000+ hours on it now and still works perfectly

stavers

262 posts

147 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
dvs_dave said:
^^^^^
It’s such a bizarre and factually incorrect position to hold I’m inclined to think it’s a carefully crafted troll post, especially with the “I work in H2ICE development” grenade thrown in.
Duck off.

Sorry that, as an engineer who was worked in most major forms of propulsion for passenger vehicles, I have an opinion on other things as well. All I was saying is that my experience of mandated technologies has been rather less than glowing and that things shouldn't be forced on people.

My final sentence was just trying to put a little bit of balance back in to the original thread title as I have first-hand experience of it which not many people do.

stavers

262 posts

147 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
Dave Hedgehog said:
stavers said:
It is correct depending upon which style of low energy bulbs that are being used. The "spiral" or "stick" type ones, which are still readily available, are the ones that give out the UV light. LED ones don't - hence why I tried to separate them out.

My experience with LED bulbs is very different from yours. Every one that I have installed (with the exception of the "filament" style one as mentioned) has failed in less time than a halogen and cost a small fortune (as you say, £7 each rather than 85p each that I paid for my last lot of halogen bulbs). That goes for both G9 and standard bayonet bulbs.
my landing bulb is a philips hue thats over 10 years old, it must have 25,000+ hours on it now and still works perfectly
Glad you got a good one:-)

My last attempt at getting LED bulbs resulted in 2 of the 3 failing after less than 3 months. When I went back to the lighting shop to complain they said that LEDs were much more reliable and it was odd to have failures so quickly. They tested the replacement LED bulbs and 2 didn't work straight out of the box. Hardly a 'glowing' experience and from then on I've refused to fit LED bulbs.

otolith

56,432 posts

205 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
stavers said:
If it truly is a better technology then it will become the leader on its own merit.
That depends on whether the benefits of the better technology accrue to those choosing it. For instance, there is no benefit to me personally in my deodorant being propelled by butane rather than CFCs.

GT9

6,830 posts

173 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
stavers said:
The vehicle which the engine goes in to have high-pressure storage vessles which store enough fuel for several hours of work, and can be refilled from a tube trailer which can store several hundred kilos of fuel. Generation can be done in a green way and whilst it isn't the most efficient (as mentioned above) it is at least less polluting than traditional ICE.
I'm very familiar with the composite tanks used to store H2, their working pressures, and the life and dimensional limitations due to the stress profile and low cycle fatigue.
If you haven't read most of this thread then I should elaborate that my question was mostly about source.
Electricity nowadays has a fairly mature (in terms of how it is derived) carbon intensity value attached to it.
UK sourced H2 is almost entirely grey today, and I don't see much on the horizon that sees us switching to green in a meaningful timeframe.
Rather, the approach seems to be to push blue hydrogen to the fore.
Blue H2 has some serious questions to answer before we can call it a proven low carbon option, so much so that the EU and USA appear to be saying no to blue hydrogen from the get go.
Fugitive methane and H2 rates combined with sub-100% capture of CO2 potentially means very unattractive real world carbon intensity.
This is what I mean by an honest discussion.
Understandably, the business relationships between JCB and Ineos, for example, favour the idea of using blue hydrogen over green.
I can rationalise that as a sound approach to decarbonising existing consumers of hydrogen, but what I struggle with is developing new applications to increase the consumption of H2 on the back of an unproven and potentially even higher carbon intensity than simply burning the methane and producing electricity from it.

TheDeuce

22,038 posts

67 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
stavers said:
TheDeuce said:
DonkeyApple said:
Bulbs aside, the poster merely said they worked in the field and didn't see much for private cars, which seems logical.
The attempt to undermine EV for personal transport by trying to undermine the obvious benefits and advance of energy saving lighting was laughable.
I wasn't attempting to do that at all. Someone made the comment about bulbs so I just replied.

Having worked for 3 OEMs on hybrid and electric vehicle development, as well as other in standard & H2 ICE development, I have my own opinions on it all.

The main point I was trying to make is that things like bulbs (which have made F all difference to global CO2 levels) should not be forced upon people. If it truly is a better technology then it will become the leader on its own merit.
And my point was that's it's good the new lightbulbs were forced upon us, because that fast tracked their development into a far more efficient AND all round better solution than what we had before. It was worth mandating the change. I expect EV will be too.

bigothunter

11,416 posts

61 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
Back to basics. I found this article informative. Others may do so as well. Alternative articles providing a better explanation are welcomed smile

Grey, blue, green – why are there so many colours of hydrogen? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/clean-energ...

TheDeuce

22,038 posts

67 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
Back to basics. I found this article informative. Others may do so as well. Alternative articles providing a better explanation are welcomed smile

Grey, blue, green – why are there so many colours of hydrogen? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/clean-energ...
It's the seven different shades of bullst smile

You want to be lied to a little, or a lot?..

GT9

6,830 posts

173 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
Back to basics. I found this article informative. Others may do so as well. Alternative articles providing a better explanation are welcomed smile

Grey, blue, green – why are there so many colours of hydrogen? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/clean-energ...
What we need is a a credible metric for measuring and reporting the carbon intensity of all these colours and an aggregated value based on mix.
Mind you, that would also need an energy utilisation co-efficient multiplier to allow a proper comparison with the direct electrification alternative (if there is one).
Top tip: don't eat yellow hydrogen.

98elise

26,756 posts

162 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
stavers said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
stavers said:
It is correct depending upon which style of low energy bulbs that are being used. The "spiral" or "stick" type ones, which are still readily available, are the ones that give out the UV light. LED ones don't - hence why I tried to separate them out.

My experience with LED bulbs is very different from yours. Every one that I have installed (with the exception of the "filament" style one as mentioned) has failed in less time than a halogen and cost a small fortune (as you say, £7 each rather than 85p each that I paid for my last lot of halogen bulbs). That goes for both G9 and standard bayonet bulbs.
my landing bulb is a philips hue thats over 10 years old, it must have 25,000+ hours on it now and still works perfectly
Glad you got a good one:-)

My last attempt at getting LED bulbs resulted in 2 of the 3 failing after less than 3 months. When I went back to the lighting shop to complain they said that LEDs were much more reliable and it was odd to have failures so quickly. They tested the replacement LED bulbs and 2 didn't work straight out of the box. Hardly a 'glowing' experience and from then on I've refused to fit LED bulbs.
I buy the cheapest ones from screfix (LAP band) and I don't remember the last time I had to replace a bulb.

As an Engineer I'm surprised you've come to your conclusions from a very small data set.

Evanivitch

20,274 posts

123 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
98elise said:
I buy the cheapest ones from screfix (LAP band) and I don't remember the last time I had to replace a bulb.

As an Engineer I'm surprised you've come to your conclusions from a very small data set.
Same.

I do find Amazon ones (often G9 or filament) were prone to failure so ditched using them. Perhaps this lighting shop is just drop shipping.

Evanivitch

20,274 posts

123 months

Monday 29th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
bigothunter said:
Back to basics. I found this article informative. Others may do so as well. Alternative articles providing a better explanation are welcomed smile

Grey, blue, green – why are there so many colours of hydrogen? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/clean-energ...
It's the seven different shades of bullst smile

You want to be lied to a little, or a lot?..
The same rule needs to be applied to HVO. All sellers (and users) will claim an "upto" emissions saving. None actually provide evidence of whether it's waste vegetable oil with green hydrogen, or palm oil and grey hydrogen.

Road2Ruin

5,277 posts

217 months

Tuesday 30th April
quotequote all
98elise said:
stavers said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
stavers said:
It is correct depending upon which style of low energy bulbs that are being used. The "spiral" or "stick" type ones, which are still readily available, are the ones that give out the UV light. LED ones don't - hence why I tried to separate them out.

My experience with LED bulbs is very different from yours. Every one that I have installed (with the exception of the "filament" style one as mentioned) has failed in less time than a halogen and cost a small fortune (as you say, £7 each rather than 85p each that I paid for my last lot of halogen bulbs). That goes for both G9 and standard bayonet bulbs.
my landing bulb is a philips hue thats over 10 years old, it must have 25,000+ hours on it now and still works perfectly
Glad you got a good one:-)

My last attempt at getting LED bulbs resulted in 2 of the 3 failing after less than 3 months. When I went back to the lighting shop to complain they said that LEDs were much more reliable and it was odd to have failures so quickly. They tested the replacement LED bulbs and 2 didn't work straight out of the box. Hardly a 'glowing' experience and from then on I've refused to fit LED bulbs.
I buy the cheapest ones from screfix (LAP band) and I don't remember the last time I had to replace a bulb.

As an Engineer I'm surprised you've come to your conclusions from a very small data set.
Same here. No idea how many led bulbs I have in the house, possibly 50+, and in the last 5 years I have replaced one. It was a cheapy, Wilko candle type bulb, at £2 for three of them. No idea where someone pays £7 for one nowadays, unless it's a fancy smart one.

gangzoom

6,343 posts

216 months

Tuesday 30th April
quotequote all
I’m surprised this thread is still giving given there is pretty much zero demand for hydrogen cars.

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/global-s...

I’m more amazed at the madness of an open fire with an ‘invisible’ flame……leaving normal people to use one of the most volatile fuels around (just look at the sun - Not literally wink), in their homes, for every day tasks like cooking……Honestly, what could possible go wrong?

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/innovation/bosch-u...

DonkeyApple

55,705 posts

170 months

Tuesday 30th April
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
The same rule needs to be applied to HVO. All sellers (and users) will claim an "upto" emissions saving. None actually provide evidence of whether it's waste vegetable oil with green hydrogen, or palm oil and grey hydrogen.
You can drive a bus through the eco fuel industry's credentials. None of the producers' claims re use of waste products would stand up to audit and there actually isn't the amount of waste produced to meet the combined claims of the industry.

The problem is that if we force the issue then it becomes more ammunition for lobbyists and so, as is the norm today, the coward's approach backed by the zealotry of truly wanting to believe is taken and so we end up with an industry that is rife and diseased because no one dared call the individual frauds out as they appeared.

Sweden has appeared as the core hub of eco fraud propagation in Europe. You'll be hard pressed to find a major running or attempted eco fraud in major European markets such as the U.K. and Germany which doesn't have a Swede in there. Even pretty kosher firms such as Lantmannen aren't exactly shy on deceptions as was seen with the rather pathetic attempt, that soon got called out, of trying to say that Coryton's carbon source was a bakery next door!! And of course, the insane fraud of British Volt, which amazingly was subsequently picked up a firm from the hole in the ground fraud specialists, Australia.

At the heart of many of the frauds is the initial deception of the 'carbon from the sky' farce where the first and major laundering act is conducted and the rest of the laundering frauds are usually built out from there to reach a concept of carbon neutral.

The uncomfortable truth is that very many eco projects are frauds or at best just grant to fee or investor to salary wheezes where third party funds are obtained by pitching the idea of delivering an eco solution but the intent is to extract all of those funds over three years via professional fees and director remuneration. The standard small cap, penny share trick.

It'll be interesting to see if Hamza goes quietly or whether someone decides to press the question as to the catastrophic failure rate of the businesses that Glasgow gave everyone's money to, why almost all are English, why there was no viable screening of applicants etc. Or does the break with the greens present the opportunity to reveal the hundreds of eco frauds funded by the SNP using the money that was needed to deliver food and shelter to the most in need and blame it on the Greens?

They've lost £bns in taxpayer funds on extremely dubious eco schemes, to put it politely, even to the point of it being so rampant that pros from primary investor spanking hubs such as Canada and Aus, the global leaders in selling holes in the ground to thick pensioners were hoping the queue for the free money. Does binning the Greens today allow for the blaming of tomorrow? A bit like when the previous leader resigned on one set of grounds the day after learning there were going to be police raids?

Will be interesting to see if the catastrophic eco frauds north of the border play any role in that unfolding mess. The SNP have pretty much bankrupted the country and certainly need a scapegoat for how all the money ended up in London and other financial hubs of superior intellect and maybe the Greens are an ideal fallguy?

P.Griffin

409 posts

115 months

Tuesday 30th April
quotequote all
Little morning reading for the EVangelists. I wonder how much more pristine rainforest needs to be cleared to get at the lithium? Are BEVs really the answer?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68896707

TheDeuce

22,038 posts

67 months

Tuesday 30th April
quotequote all
P.Griffin said:
Little morning reading for the EVangelists. I wonder how much more pristine rainforest needs to be cleared to get at the lithium? Are BEVs really the answer?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68896707
Why would you think that something not being perfect, means it's not the best solution? And as such, 'the answer'?

Surely the problem you're pointing at is one of battery tech anyway, not EV.

bigothunter

11,416 posts

61 months

Tuesday 30th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
P.Griffin said:
Little morning reading for the EVangelists. I wonder how much more pristine rainforest needs to be cleared to get at the lithium? Are BEVs really the answer?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68896707
Why would you think that something not being perfect, means it's not the best solution? And as such, 'the answer'?

Surely the problem you're pointing at is one of battery tech anyway, not EV.
Get over the shortcomings of batteries and EV domination would be unstoppable. But that breakthrough has been a long time coming, since around 1888.

DonkeyApple

55,705 posts

170 months

Tuesday 30th April
quotequote all
P.Griffin said:
Little morning reading for the EVangelists. I wonder how much more pristine rainforest needs to be cleared to get at the lithium? Are BEVs really the answer?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68896707
Technically, Argentina and Chile don't have rain forests, those are quite a bit further north. And in DRC it's cobalt that is being dug out and thanks to EV demand the plight of the situation has been brought to the collective minds of people who will randomly give a crap for just long enough to feel special and superior to others. wink

By the way, it's best not to use the term 'evangelist' as it does set the tone that the person using it is a thicko loon like an evangelist but on the opposing team where the sport is who can be the biggest retard.

TheDeuce

22,038 posts

67 months

Tuesday 30th April
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
TheDeuce said:
P.Griffin said:
Little morning reading for the EVangelists. I wonder how much more pristine rainforest needs to be cleared to get at the lithium? Are BEVs really the answer?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68896707
Why would you think that something not being perfect, means it's not the best solution? And as such, 'the answer'?

Surely the problem you're pointing at is one of battery tech anyway, not EV.
Get over the shortcomings of batteries and EV domination would be unstoppable. But that breakthrough has been a long time coming, since around 1888.
Battery tech has improved significantly since then, so much so EV's finally became viable. The subsequent demand for EV's is already accelerating and funding efforts to make better batteries.

There are always bumps in the road, but being on the right road is what matters. The EV's of today aren't the end goal, but they're a crucial part of the journey.