Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's still in trials and test. Admittedly it's doing it in public service, but it's not a commercial option yet.https://railway-news.com/coradia-ilint-hydrogen-tr...
Speed1283 said:
Agree with others that Hydrogen is probably going to play a role in heavier vehicle/transport modes, but I'm yet to be convinced for passenger cars, but I'm not against it. I think the new Mirai looks nice, much better than the previous generation and it will be interesting to see if Toyota sell many, I understand Japan itself is very much interested in hydrogen so toyota may have a domestic market at least.
I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
hydrogen trains is a great idea. It must cost alot of money and time to electrify tracks.I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
The infrastructure, and the costs, for hydrogen production and fuelling can be shared between cars, HGVs and buses, ships and trains, and industry, and homes perhaps.
Why would you want to pay to set up the infrastructure and upgrades for millions of public charging points for cars AND have charging points in all homes for cars AND megachargers to make battery HGVs anywhere near viable
(if at all) AND to electrify the rail lines for battery trains? Not forgetting batteries would never work for shipping.
Why would you want to pay to set up the infrastructure and upgrades for millions of public charging points for cars AND have charging points in all homes for cars AND megachargers to make battery HGVs anywhere near viable
(if at all) AND to electrify the rail lines for battery trains? Not forgetting batteries would never work for shipping.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
By "charging points in all homes" you mean electrical sockets, right?
And why wouldn't you? If the price of one hydrogen station equals that of 50 000 charging points?
With operating costs as much as a million chargers.
The only real cost involved is the superchargers...
One aspect that seems to have been overlooked in this thread - battery to battery charging.
The Norwegians solved the problem of an electric ferry by installing big batteries at the terminals - which can be charged up over relatively long periods of time.
Ship docks, big cable plugged in, massive charging rates for a short time.
I would suggest this is superior to trying to physically change batteries - and also far better than hydrogen.
Can't see hydrogen passenger vehicles ever being relevant due to physics.
ZesPak said:
By "charging points in all homes" you mean electrical sockets, right?
And why wouldn't you? If the price of one hydrogen station equals that of 50 000 charging points?
With operating costs as much as a million chargers.
The only real cost involved is the superchargers...
)It definitely won't equate to the cost of the public charging points AND the planning work AND the civil engineering AND the local distribution alterations needed for public charging points.
But my point is a little hyperbolic. Of course you'd have home BEV charging points. For some people they'll fit straight in and some will need to have some upgrade work done to their electrical supply. Then some without off street parking may have to pray.
The point is more the interchangeability and crossover of the infrastructure for the various modes of transport, and other areas, using hydrogen.
That's got to be a major plus point, economically and practically.
jamoor said:
Speed1283 said:
Agree with others that Hydrogen is probably going to play a role in heavier vehicle/transport modes, but I'm yet to be convinced for passenger cars, but I'm not against it. I think the new Mirai looks nice, much better than the previous generation and it will be interesting to see if Toyota sell many, I understand Japan itself is very much interested in hydrogen so toyota may have a domestic market at least.
I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
hydrogen trains is a great idea. It must cost alot of money and time to electrify tracks.I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
Hydrogen trains on the face of it are a good idea, but the elephant in the room that isn’t given sufficient credence is where is the hydrogen coming from?
If it’s produced from electrolysis, then for a train, like a car, somewhere between 2-3 times as much energy is required per mile travelled compared to an electric/battery train. Ergo you also need that much more power generation (in whatever form) to provide for it.
If the hydrogen is coming from fossil fuels (natural gas), as the vast majority of it does today, then that process requires 3 tons of natural gas per ton of hydrogen produced, and emits 9-12tons of CO2. And that’s before any sort of distribution network comes into play. For obvious reasons this is not viable on a mass scale.
By way of comparison, burning a ton of diesel fuel in an ICE emits just over 3 tons of CO2, plus around 0.7tons to get it from the well to the tank. So call it 4 tons of CO2 per ton, plus of course all sorts of other emissions!
Hydrogen vehicles could make sense if the hydrogen used is an unwanted byproduct from some other industrial process thats already happening. But there’s only really enough of that to support a relatively small fleet. Certainly not enough for mass adoption. And then you’re back to the electrolysis solution to make up the deficit.
Maybe one day when fusion is cracked (a perpetual 30 years away) and we have essentially unlimited cheap power that we can afford to “waste” on hydrogen electrolysis, then it may make more sense.
Until then though, the realities of it aren’t very compelling beyond a fairly small set of industrial applications.
Edited by dvs_dave on Thursday 3rd December 00:55
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The Italians have indeed ordered some (announced last week), with the first of the 6 units ordered entering service within 3 years. https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/11/20201130-...The RIA (alliance of British rail suppliers) see a place for hydrogen trains, but with some limitations. They don't see them as suitable for high speed or mainline usage, mainly due to their research showing a hydrogen train needs 8 times the storage volume of a diesel train for the same range and performance.
They see them as mainly for use on longer and less intensively used regional routes which can't be economically electrified, with top speeds of under 100mph.
https://www.railtech.com/rolling-stock/2020/06/17/...
Interesting to see the manufacturer of the hydrogen trains sold to Italy are also working on a hybrid system for the French TER, replacing half the engines with lithium ion battery packs.
They're also selling some battery trains to Germany.
So they seem to agree with the RIA that there are quite a few options and that hydrogen may not always be the solution.
dvs_dave said:
jamoor said:
Speed1283 said:
Agree with others that Hydrogen is probably going to play a role in heavier vehicle/transport modes, but I'm yet to be convinced for passenger cars, but I'm not against it. I think the new Mirai looks nice, much better than the previous generation and it will be interesting to see if Toyota sell many, I understand Japan itself is very much interested in hydrogen so toyota may have a domestic market at least.
I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
hydrogen trains is a great idea. It must cost alot of money and time to electrify tracks.I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
Hydrogen trains on the face of it are a good idea, but the elephant in the room that isn’t given sufficient credence is where is the hydrogen coming from?
If it’s produced from electrolysis, then for a train, like a car, somewhere between 2-3 times as much energy is required per mile travelled compared to an electric/battery train. Ergo you also need that much more power generation (in whatever form) to provide for it.
If the hydrogen is coming from fossil fuels (natural gas), as the vast majority of it does today, then that process requires 3 tons of natural gas per ton of hydrogen produced, and emits 9-12tons of CO2. And that’s before any sort of distribution network comes into play. For obvious reasons this is not viable on a mass scale.
By way of comparison, burning a ton of diesel fuel in an ICE emits just over 3 tons of CO2, plus around 0.7tons to get it from the well to the tank. So call it 4 tons of CO2 per ton, plus of course all sorts of other emissions!
Hydrogen vehicles could make sense if the hydrogen used is an unwanted byproduct from some other industrial process thats already happening. But there’s only really enough of that to support a relatively small fleet. Certainly not enough for mass adoption. And then you’re back to the electrolysis solution to make up the deficit.
Maybe one day when fusion is cracked (a perpetual 30 years away) and we have essentially unlimited cheap power that we can afford to “waste” on hydrogen electrolysis, then it may make more sense.
Until then though, the realities of it aren’t very compelling beyond a fairly small set of industrial applications.
Edited by dvs_dave on Thursday 3rd December 00:55
So still not massive reductions...
dvs_dave said:
If it’s produced from electrolysis, then for a train, like a car, somewhere between 2-3 times as much energy is required per mile travelled compared to an electric/battery train. Ergo you also need that much more power generation (in whatever form) to provide for it.
Even if you believe this is the case in cars you will see it is not the same ratio with trains.Edited by dvs_dave on Thursday 3rd December 00:55
Please look up the hydrogen consumption of an iLint train per km.
Please also look up the range in km of the battery-catenary trains in relation to the battery kWh ratings of the trains. You'll see they're nowhere near the ratio of a battery passenger car.
And to address your question of where the hydrogen will be coming from? Electrolysis of water.
rscott said:
Using the 2018 UK energy mix, hydrogen trains would only be 4% lower co2 emissions in total than diesels, if the hydrogen came from electrolysis. If it were from natural gas reformation, then 24% lower.
So still not massive reductions...
Are you sure?So still not massive reductions...
Is that cradle to grave? You should be considering the manufacturing footprint and end of life considerations, not just the fuelling.
Why haven't you mentioned the situation with battery-catenary trains too?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Why not ask the RIA? I'm quoting from their submission to parliament - https://www.railtech.com/rolling-stock/2020/06/17/...Interesting interview with Alstom and Vivarail about their hydrogen train solutions and how they see them fitting into the UK rail network.
Both make the point that electrification of the network is the best option, with hydrogen being used jn the short to medium term while that happens and for the few areas it's not possible.
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/on-track-advances-uk...
Both make the point that electrification of the network is the best option, with hydrogen being used jn the short to medium term while that happens and for the few areas it's not possible.
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/on-track-advances-uk...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You are correct with the Alston ILINT, Siemens has also recently secured an initial order/trial in Germany. I think Hydrogen trains will happen in the UK, possibly mid 2020s onwards, Network Rail themselves suggest that not all lines are viable for electrification, and with diesel only trains being effectively ruled out beyond 2040 (2035 in Scotland), for such lines hydrogen is the only viable technology at present due to its range capabilities. I don't know about the complexity of planning laws on electrification, but as the lines are effectively Network Rail land they may be able to circumnavigate some issues but I suspect in some areas there will be resistance.
To the poster who suggested recycled EV batteries, I don't know the details but I don't think the average car battery will be easily approved for rail use, the standards for fire safety are extremely tough, the manufacturers are working with battery supplier's to create solutions (how different they are to car batteries I do not know). Also I simply do not think that battery trains will get the range, at most it seems that 40-60 miles is possible with circa 7-8 tonnes of battery, packaging the batteries is not as simple as you'd think, the UK gauge is relatively small so batteries tend to have to be mounted underneath, and possibly on roof spaces if there is a recess. Intruding into passenger areas is a bit of a no go really.
Battery Electric trains combined with intermittent electrification however, does have potential and may well be used in some areas as it allows electrification in 'easy' areas, with problematic areas (tunnels etc) able to be without wires.
Smiljan said:
Thanks JJ, was that £500 for the connection or was it cabling and all the changed to your consumer unit etc?
I'd imagine it's variable depending where the nearest connection is they can use but £500 sounds really good. Did you have to have a new meter fitted too?
The meter was free, and they did the tail end work, I bought the rest from screwfix, put it all up and paid for it to be connected by an electrician, so I could get the certificate.I'd imagine it's variable depending where the nearest connection is they can use but £500 sounds really good. Did you have to have a new meter fitted too?
I dug the trench from the road to the house, the meter was put on the outside wall, I had to buy and put in the hockey stick ends, meter cabinet I also bought and put up. It's all really cheap and plastic that stuff.
I think the connection charge is just a standard price, phone whoever looks after the network in your area, tell them you just need a connection price, no ground work etc. and see what it is. It should be under £1000.
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