Drivetrain pros/cons and future trends?
Discussion
wc98 said:
TheDeuce said:
Nope... Perfectly good at doing the fun stuff and faster a to b too.
Nope, whatever the quoted max range of your EV, my old 1.6 diesel pile of crud will be quicker over that distance. Before you disagree what is the range of your EV travelling at 80 to 100mph ? To be fair you will be doing it in a nice car and i won't.I regard myself as an average driving enthusiast in terms of ability and the most fun cars i have driven were a MK1 Mr2 and an RX8 yet could drive both sideways everywhere, especially good given i live in a new town with more roundabouts than most large Cities. The RX8 was a bit snappier on the oversteer but still easily controllable and even better as a passenger with a mate that can actually drive.
Neither was particularly heavy and despite the competence of big heavy modern day cars (both ICE and EV) i don't think they are as capable of a fun drive as the lighter stuff, but that's me and i appreciate we are all different. After years of sports bikes cars that have quick 0-100 times, even if a bit quicker than the bikes don't really do much for me.
There has been lots of good info from informed people on these EV threads that has got me coming around to the idea that my motoring future is not all doom and gloom. Given fun to me these days is picking a line down a nice a or b road or trying to get really technical sections of road spot on at a speed that is near my capability (not the cars) the actual propulsion method isn't really going to be a major issue once the range gets a bit better and they get a bit cheaper which should happen in the not too distant future.
I actually tried to get my wife to chop her car in for an EV but the thought of not having a gear stick or clutch is really putting her off. Given she drives like miss Daisy i can only assume it's the loss of familiarity that has her worried.
In reality we probably both drive as fast on longer trips as we consider is reasonable for the road and within what we can get away with... And either car can easily do that. Driven without any regard for economy at all, I will easily reach 200+ miles range. That's about 3.5-4 hours driving in real world conditions, so whatever car I was driving I would at some point stop for long enough to charge it. I wouldn't get there quicker in your diesel, despite it having more range.
I actually used to have Mk2 MR2 turbo, heavily tuned - it was great fun, although a bit of a pendulum if it was pushed too far sideways... I love cars from that era. I also had a Mk2 CRX VTEC, which was pure joy to throw around the road.
At present, pending higher density and lighter batteries that will produce lightweight 'fun' cars, I would summarise EV fun as:
- Power and traction. When you accelerate hard through and out of a corner in a performance orientated EV, the forces the cars can deliver are quite something, as is the wave of torque that pushes you down the road which simply doesn't let up until silly speeds.
- You can have fun discreetly... Because there's no screaming engine, no wheelspin, very little to attract attention. If you are pushing down a fun b-road at speeds many people would consider 'daft', the chances are, they won't even notice.
- Cornering ability. Whilst the cars are heavy and above a certain speed heading into a corner you can definitely feel the weight, they are actually very capable at changing direction. The combination of low slung weight, AWD and very fine torque vectoring control means that my car can generate nearly 1g lateral force in a corner, just very slightly less than an M3 CS, for comparison - which is obviously a far lighter and more focused performance car. My car won't feel like it wants to do that, but the capability is absolutely there and it's quite impressive when you do push it.
So EV 'fun' cars are different and have their own strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't say they're overall any less fun - but they are certainly a lot cheaper on terms of fuel cost and more discrete when you do choose to have some fun.
TheDeuce said:
- Cornering ability. Whilst the cars are heavy and above a certain speed heading into a corner you can definitely feel the weight, they are actually very capable at changing direction. The combination of low slung weight, AWD and very fine torque vectoring control means that my car can generate nearly 1g lateral force in a corner, just very slightly less than an M3 CS, for comparison - which is obviously a far lighter and more focused performance car. My car won't feel like it wants to do that, but the capability is absolutely there and it's quite impressive when you do push it.
Just a quick query why so much obsession with lateral G?It’s just one metric in isolation.
An M3 CS is over 1G with Car and Driver reporting 1.06G avg. I4 M50 is reporting at 0.94g on the skid pad with MotorTrend. I don’t think you quite understand how much of a gap this actually is. For example MotorTrend also gives a bog standard Golf GTI 0.92g avg and having went from a Golf GTI to an M2 I can tell you the difference between 0.92g and 1.02g is massive and way more than you might realise. You’d be through the hedge and in the farmers field! You are actually closer to my wife’s 330e with 0.89g avg (MotorTrend) than an M3 CS.
Understanding impact tyres have.
Edited by CG2020UK on Wednesday 1st May 11:34
CG2020UK said:
TheDeuce said:
- Cornering ability. Whilst the cars are heavy and above a certain speed heading into a corner you can definitely feel the weight, they are actually very capable at changing direction. The combination of low slung weight, AWD and very fine torque vectoring control means that my car can generate nearly 1g lateral force in a corner, just very slightly less than an M3 CS, for comparison - which is obviously a far lighter and more focused performance car. My car won't feel like it wants to do that, but the capability is absolutely there and it's quite impressive when you do push it.
Just a quick query why so much obsession with lateral G?It’s just one metric in isolation.
I find the way EV's change direction to be very entertaining. With the low COG they can be much more darty and fun to position than you might imagine. Coupled with the punch out of corners and they can be great fun. Petrol cars just feel a bit wheezy and slow witted by comparison.
The 997 flows more, and you can balance it on the limit for sure, but the EV6 just annihilates corners with a combination of grip and surprising body control. Remember Albert Biermann was hired from MW to head Hyndai's performance division so it shouldn't really be any surprise that the cars handle well.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 1st May 12:31
CG2020UK said:
TheDeuce said:
- Cornering ability. Whilst the cars are heavy and above a certain speed heading into a corner you can definitely feel the weight, they are actually very capable at changing direction. The combination of low slung weight, AWD and very fine torque vectoring control means that my car can generate nearly 1g lateral force in a corner, just very slightly less than an M3 CS, for comparison - which is obviously a far lighter and more focused performance car. My car won't feel like it wants to do that, but the capability is absolutely there and it's quite impressive when you do push it.
Just a quick query why so much obsession with lateral G?It’s just one metric in isolation.
An M3 CS is over 1G with Car and Driver reporting 1.06G avg. I4 M50 is reporting at 0.94g on the skid pad with MotorTrend. I don’t think you quite understand how much of a gap this actually is. For example MotorTrend also gives a bog standard Golf GTI 0.92g avg and having went from a Golf GTI to an M2 I can tell you the difference between 0.92g and 1.02g is massive and way more than you might realise. You’d be through the hedge and in the farmers field! You are actually closer to my wife’s 330e with 0.89g avg (MotorTrend) than an M3 CS.
Understanding impact tyres have.
Edited by CG2020UK on Wednesday 1st May 11:34
I don't know why you would assume that I don't appreciate the difference between the cars you mention and what it takes to generate higher levels of lateral force.
My point was to illustrate that despite their inherent weight, performance EV's can actually change direction very competently at a technical level. As you point out, the electric 2.5 tonne lump of an i4 can actually out corner a modern Golf Gti, a car that people have praised for it's dynamic abilities since forever. The golf actually has it's own very good torque vectoring e-diff which does a lot to pull the car into a corner, but in a BEV the same basic technology has a higher level of fidelity and reaction time, so the results can exceed the ICE car despite the extra weight, helped also by the location of that weight of course.
I used the M3 as a point of reference for no reason other it often being used to compare and contrast the i4 M50 as its BMW's closest ICE equivalent in terms of pace. Personally I see the M3 as a proper drivers car with some genuine track credentials, as opposed to the M50 which whilst as fast point to point on a b-road, is in nature definitely more of a GT car driving experience, it's too soft and a little too heavy to feel like a full blooded performance car.
740EVTORQUES said:
Because as any racing driver will tell you, the straights are th boring bits you drive down to get to the corners.
I find the way EV's change direction to be very entertaining. With the low COG they can be much more darty and fun to position than you might imagine. Coupled with the punch out of corners and they can be great fun. Petrol cars just feel a bit wheezy and slow witted by comparison.
The 997 flows more, and you can balance it on the limit for sure, but the EV6 just annihilates corners with a combination of grip and surprising body control. Remember Albert Biermann was hired from MW to head Hyndai's performance division so it shouldn't really be any surprise that the cars handle well.
But MotorTrend only gives the EV6 GT a lateral grip as a 0.87g avg on the skid pad. A Range Rover Evoque is 0.86g.I find the way EV's change direction to be very entertaining. With the low COG they can be much more darty and fun to position than you might imagine. Coupled with the punch out of corners and they can be great fun. Petrol cars just feel a bit wheezy and slow witted by comparison.
The 997 flows more, and you can balance it on the limit for sure, but the EV6 just annihilates corners with a combination of grip and surprising body control. Remember Albert Biermann was hired from MW to head Hyndai's performance division so it shouldn't really be any surprise that the cars handle well.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 1st May 12:31
Now that’s a massive gap to the I4 M50 and is even worse than my wife’s 330e on eco tyres. Which although grippy is in no way sporty or in my head enjoyable to drive.
TheDeuce is saying lateral grip is incredibly important and how great the I4 M50’s is as if it somehow rivals an M3 CS but then your EV6 GT has quite a bad score.
Therefore I’m getting confused about the importance of lateral G or if your subjective feeling is maybe off and your EV6 GT is pretty rubbish in corners which would make it boring as you say.
Edited by CG2020UK on Wednesday 1st May 12:57
CG2020UK said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Because as any racing driver will tell you, the straights are th boring bits you drive down to get to the corners.
I find the way EV's change direction to be very entertaining. With the low COG they can be much more darty and fun to position than you might imagine. Coupled with the punch out of corners and they can be great fun. Petrol cars just feel a bit wheezy and slow witted by comparison.
The 997 flows more, and you can balance it on the limit for sure, but the EV6 just annihilates corners with a combination of grip and surprising body control. Remember Albert Biermann was hired from MW to head Hyndai's performance division so it shouldn't really be any surprise that the cars handle well.
But MotorTrend only gives the EV6 GT a lateral grip as a 0.87g avg on the skid pad.I find the way EV's change direction to be very entertaining. With the low COG they can be much more darty and fun to position than you might imagine. Coupled with the punch out of corners and they can be great fun. Petrol cars just feel a bit wheezy and slow witted by comparison.
The 997 flows more, and you can balance it on the limit for sure, but the EV6 just annihilates corners with a combination of grip and surprising body control. Remember Albert Biermann was hired from MW to head Hyndai's performance division so it shouldn't really be any surprise that the cars handle well.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 1st May 12:31
Now that’s a massive gap to the I4 M50 and is even worse than my wife’s 330e on eco tyres. Which although grippy is in no way sporty or in my head enjoyable to drive.
TheDeuce is saying lateral grip is incredibly important and how great the I4 M50’s is as if it somehow rivals an M3 CS but then your EV6 GT has quite a bad score.
Therefore I’m getting confused about the importance of lateral G or if your subjective feeling is maybe off and your EV6 GT is pretty rubbish in corners which would make it boring as you say.
CG2020UK said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Because as any racing driver will tell you, the straights are th boring bits you drive down to get to the corners.
I find the way EV's change direction to be very entertaining. With the low COG they can be much more darty and fun to position than you might imagine. Coupled with the punch out of corners and they can be great fun. Petrol cars just feel a bit wheezy and slow witted by comparison.
The 997 flows more, and you can balance it on the limit for sure, but the EV6 just annihilates corners with a combination of grip and surprising body control. Remember Albert Biermann was hired from MW to head Hyndai's performance division so it shouldn't really be any surprise that the cars handle well.
But MotorTrend only gives the EV6 GT a lateral grip as a 0.87g avg on the skid pad.I find the way EV's change direction to be very entertaining. With the low COG they can be much more darty and fun to position than you might imagine. Coupled with the punch out of corners and they can be great fun. Petrol cars just feel a bit wheezy and slow witted by comparison.
The 997 flows more, and you can balance it on the limit for sure, but the EV6 just annihilates corners with a combination of grip and surprising body control. Remember Albert Biermann was hired from MW to head Hyndai's performance division so it shouldn't really be any surprise that the cars handle well.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 1st May 12:31
Now that’s a massive gap to the I4 M50 and is even worse than my wife’s 330e on eco tyres. Which although grippy is in no way sporty or in my head enjoyable to drive.
TheDeuce is saying lateral grip is incredibly important and how great the I4 M50’s is as if it somehow rivals an M3 CS but then your EV6 GT has quite a bad score.
Therefore I’m getting confused about the importance of lateral G or if your subjective feeling is maybe off and your EV6 GT is pretty rubbish in corners which would make it boring as you say.
MotorTrend said:
So with that said, the EV6 GT lapped our figure-eight course in 25.1 seconds with a 0.77 g average. Respectable numbers but outgunned by the Ford (24.9 seconds at 0.78 g) and Tesla (24.8 seconds at 0.79 g).
What gives? We'd say it's tires, as evidenced by the EV6 GT's 0.87 g average on the skidpad, whereas the Mach-E GT and Model Y Performance were able to stick harder to the skidpad at 0.96 g and 0.91 g, respectively. Coincidentally, both those cars were fitted with Pirelli P Zeros.
They do then go on to say What gives? We'd say it's tires, as evidenced by the EV6 GT's 0.87 g average on the skidpad, whereas the Mach-E GT and Model Y Performance were able to stick harder to the skidpad at 0.96 g and 0.91 g, respectively. Coincidentally, both those cars were fitted with Pirelli P Zeros.
MotorTrend said:
But let's not fixate on those figure-eight numbers too much, because the EV6 GT is an absolute thrill to fling around the track
So, no not rubbish at all, an absolute thrill, I agree with MotorTrend(Maybe not a good idea to use selective quoting
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 1st May 13:47
In the real world you’d have more fun in a 1.5 mx5 on skinny tyres.
This issue of g force and grip over handling predates EVs too. Big grippy ICE is also compromised fun, it’s just that EVs now beat that type of fun except the (pleasing) noise. This has turned into a silly thread really. I won’t be adding big heavy fast petrol saloons to my collection, their time is up.
This issue of g force and grip over handling predates EVs too. Big grippy ICE is also compromised fun, it’s just that EVs now beat that type of fun except the (pleasing) noise. This has turned into a silly thread really. I won’t be adding big heavy fast petrol saloons to my collection, their time is up.
TheDeuce said:
The range of my M50 at 100mph.. I bet it's 170 miles or less. But if we both set off to do a 200 mile trip, me driving at 85 and you at 100, even if I had to stop for a 10 minute charge I'd easily beat you to the finish line - because there's no hope in hell of you competing a 200 mile journey at 100mph these days without twinkly blue lights halting your progress and eventually removing your license, and temporarily at least, your liberty.
In reality we probably both drive as fast on longer trips as we consider is reasonable for the road and within what we can get away with... And either car can easily do that. Driven without any regard for economy at all, I will easily reach 200+ miles range. That's about 3.5-4 hours driving in real world conditions, so whatever car I was driving I would at some point stop for long enough to charge it. I wouldn't get there quicker in your diesel, despite it having more range.
I actually used to have Mk2 MR2 turbo, heavily tuned - it was great fun, although a bit of a pendulum if it was pushed too far sideways... I love cars from that era. I also had a Mk2 CRX VTEC, which was pure joy to throw around the road.
At present, pending higher density and lighter batteries that will produce lightweight 'fun' cars, I would summarise EV fun as:
- Power and traction. When you accelerate hard through and out of a corner in a performance orientated EV, the forces the cars can deliver are quite something, as is the wave of torque that pushes you down the road which simply doesn't let up until silly speeds.
- You can have fun discreetly... Because there's no screaming engine, no wheelspin, very little to attract attention. If you are pushing down a fun b-road at speeds many people would consider 'daft', the chances are, they won't even notice.
- Cornering ability. Whilst the cars are heavy and above a certain speed heading into a corner you can definitely feel the weight, they are actually very capable at changing direction. The combination of low slung weight, AWD and very fine torque vectoring control means that my car can generate nearly 1g lateral force in a corner, just very slightly less than an M3 CS, for comparison - which is obviously a far lighter and more focused performance car. My car won't feel like it wants to do that, but the capability is absolutely there and it's quite impressive when you do push it.
So EV 'fun' cars are different and have their own strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't say they're overall any less fun - but they are certainly a lot cheaper on terms of fuel cost and more discrete when you do choose to have some fun.
That sounds like a challenge In reality we probably both drive as fast on longer trips as we consider is reasonable for the road and within what we can get away with... And either car can easily do that. Driven without any regard for economy at all, I will easily reach 200+ miles range. That's about 3.5-4 hours driving in real world conditions, so whatever car I was driving I would at some point stop for long enough to charge it. I wouldn't get there quicker in your diesel, despite it having more range.
I actually used to have Mk2 MR2 turbo, heavily tuned - it was great fun, although a bit of a pendulum if it was pushed too far sideways... I love cars from that era. I also had a Mk2 CRX VTEC, which was pure joy to throw around the road.
At present, pending higher density and lighter batteries that will produce lightweight 'fun' cars, I would summarise EV fun as:
- Power and traction. When you accelerate hard through and out of a corner in a performance orientated EV, the forces the cars can deliver are quite something, as is the wave of torque that pushes you down the road which simply doesn't let up until silly speeds.
- You can have fun discreetly... Because there's no screaming engine, no wheelspin, very little to attract attention. If you are pushing down a fun b-road at speeds many people would consider 'daft', the chances are, they won't even notice.
- Cornering ability. Whilst the cars are heavy and above a certain speed heading into a corner you can definitely feel the weight, they are actually very capable at changing direction. The combination of low slung weight, AWD and very fine torque vectoring control means that my car can generate nearly 1g lateral force in a corner, just very slightly less than an M3 CS, for comparison - which is obviously a far lighter and more focused performance car. My car won't feel like it wants to do that, but the capability is absolutely there and it's quite impressive when you do push it.
So EV 'fun' cars are different and have their own strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't say they're overall any less fun - but they are certainly a lot cheaper on terms of fuel cost and more discrete when you do choose to have some fun.
I promise you i can pick a 200 mile route with a mix of motorway ,a and b roads plus a bit of single track thrown in, even a bit of average speed camera dual carriageway with a very low, but not zero, chance of ever seeing a blue light. Time of day being a key element to that.I'm really interested to find out now
100mph on my speedo will be sub ban threshold in reality. I've had a few passenger rides in heavy (ICE) cars that appear to defy the laws of physics so i can absolutely believe how good the performance of yours is, mentioned on another thread but i really wonder if the best car for a lap of the TT might be a rapid EV built for the job.On the cost side of things i have never owned a new car, only new bikes as i'm one of the ordinary punters earnings wise that so many of the forum members worry about in the switch to EV power, it really is heart warming
so it's going to be a while before i would be in a position to buy something suitable for my needs. My plan was my wife getting the electric car (which would make a lot of sense for the mileage she does and we could charge at home, although given our smart meter appears to be dumb and our broadband/ wifi is spotty at best getting the best working deal would be a challenge in itself ) me staying with a better diesel estate than i have now (i guarantee the current one is aesthetically the worst car owned by any UK member on this forum) and getting something slightly performance related to keep for fun days and the odd euro trip now i wear glasses and don't like riding a bike with them, although her reluctance to get one or even an automatic ICE has put a spanner in the works.wc98 said:
That sounds like a challenge I promise you i can pick a 200 mile route with a mix of motorway ,a and b roads plus a bit of single track thrown in, even a bit of average speed camera dual carriageway with a very low, but not zero, chance of ever seeing a blue light. Time of day being a key element to that.
I'm really interested to find out now 100mph on my speedo will be sub ban threshold in reality. I've had a few passenger rides in heavy (ICE) cars that appear to defy the laws of physics so i can absolutely believe how good the performance of yours is, mentioned on another thread but i really wonder if the best car for a lap of the TT might be a rapid EV built for the job.
On the cost side of things i have never owned a new car, only new bikes as i'm one of the ordinary punters earnings wise that so many of the forum members worry about in the switch to EV power, it really is heart warming so it's going to be a while before i would be in a position to buy something suitable for my needs. My plan was my wife getting the electric car (which would make a lot of sense for the mileage she does and we could charge at home, although given our smart meter appears to be dumb and our broadband/ wifi is spotty at best getting the best working deal would be a challenge in itself ) me staying with a better diesel estate than i have now (i guarantee the current one is aesthetically the worst car owned by any UK member on this forum) and getting something slightly performance related to keep for fun days and the odd euro trip now i wear glasses and don't like riding a bike with them, although her reluctance to get one or even an automatic ICE has put a spanner in the works.
Yea.. but there's no route you could sustain 100mph ish speeds for that length of time - so the 100mph range of an EV is a bit... not really relevant I promise you i can pick a 200 mile route with a mix of motorway ,a and b roads plus a bit of single track thrown in, even a bit of average speed camera dual carriageway with a very low, but not zero, chance of ever seeing a blue light. Time of day being a key element to that.I'm really interested to find out now
100mph on my speedo will be sub ban threshold in reality. I've had a few passenger rides in heavy (ICE) cars that appear to defy the laws of physics so i can absolutely believe how good the performance of yours is, mentioned on another thread but i really wonder if the best car for a lap of the TT might be a rapid EV built for the job.On the cost side of things i have never owned a new car, only new bikes as i'm one of the ordinary punters earnings wise that so many of the forum members worry about in the switch to EV power, it really is heart warming
so it's going to be a while before i would be in a position to buy something suitable for my needs. My plan was my wife getting the electric car (which would make a lot of sense for the mileage she does and we could charge at home, although given our smart meter appears to be dumb and our broadband/ wifi is spotty at best getting the best working deal would be a challenge in itself ) me staying with a better diesel estate than i have now (i guarantee the current one is aesthetically the worst car owned by any UK member on this forum) and getting something slightly performance related to keep for fun days and the odd euro trip now i wear glasses and don't like riding a bike with them, although her reluctance to get one or even an automatic ICE has put a spanner in the works.
As for the wife, you could blag an EV for a days test drive - tell her it's amazing and so easy to drive, she HAS to have a quick go...
As for your future potential EV purchase, it's still a bit early for bargain basement but good spec, decent mileage EV's to be available in the same way that old diesels can be snapped up now for £1500 or whatever - but it's that market is getting there slowly. I doubt EV's will get down to such low values unless they have an actual problem or high battery degradation, but once you factor in the running costs (my 550hp EV costs about £7 to 'fuel' for 200+ miles..) then they start to make sense as a 'bargain'. I've seen a few Model S's go for around £10k with approx. 100k miles, that sounds like high mileage but they generally go 200-250k miles ahead of major battery degradation or faults. You could probably get something like that for around £300 a month which is what a lot of people will put in their old diesel every month in terms of fuel anyway. Give it another few years and I expect such cars will be more 6-7k. As you say, no rush - the market will come to you in time.
740EVTORQUES said:
For those bemoaning the lack of track able EVs, Hyundai have released a track only version of the Ionic 5 N, the cup car. It’s 250kg lighter, under £100k and there’s a one make series coming.
They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
A one make series might be good to watch.They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
If all the cars are the same, it's all down to the driver.
OutInTheShed said:
740EVTORQUES said:
For those bemoaning the lack of track able EVs, Hyundai have released a track only version of the Ionic 5 N, the cup car. It’s 250kg lighter, under £100k and there’s a one make series coming.
They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
A one make series might be good to watch.They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
If all the cars are the same, it's all down to the driver.
Here's 60 seconds of bumper cars at Monaco
It was mildly amusing watching lightly modified luxury jag SUV's crash into each other around a circuit, endlessly. My only take away from the fact the cars were electric is that you can really hear the tyres working, which is not that common in motorsport watched on the TV these days.
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