EVs... no one wants them!

EVs... no one wants them!

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Discussion

FiF

44,299 posts

253 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
Unreal said:
I was quite surprised by an earlier post saying that around 70% of drivers had off road parking. Seemed to be backed up in this article (which I haven't read in full yet).

https://www.transportxtra.com/publications/parking...
These are a summary of the figures, different analysis to the above, it used OS digital mapping.

The criteria was residences which either had space for off road parking now, or the potential to create a space for a vehicle the size of a Ford Fiesta adjacent to the property.



Note that doesn't include residences where there may be off road parking but that is positioned such that it may not be possible to arrange a home charging facility, eg HMOs, blocks of apartments, affordable housing where spaces are provided in shared areas somewhere within a development.

The other thing that needs to be pointed out is that for example London is an outlier not just in the figures, but firstly because the public transport system provision there and secondly 40+% of the households don't have a car.

GT9

6,879 posts

174 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
BricktopST205 said:
At least it explains why the standard of driving on our roads is so poor!
Not really.
On any given day in the UK, just 1% of car journeys are over 200 miles.
You are seeking to put the edgiest of edge cases front and centre, and yet its is statistically irrelevant, in the extreme.


Tindersticks

126 posts

2 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
Jim Farley, president and CEO of Ford Motor Co., earned $26.5 million in 2023, a 26% year-over-year increase.

I'm sure he appreciates the vagaries of capitalism.

braddo

10,630 posts

190 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
Public charging infrastructure has risen by 49% over past year

https://www.transportxtra.com/publications/parking...


FiF

44,299 posts

253 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
sturge7878 said:
Why would they sell cars at a loss? Suspect the legislation will most likely be amended at some point anyway or petrols will start selling above list due to a lack of availability.
What's the loss to the U.K. if we stop importing Ford badged cars from Germany?

The U.K. employees in Ford clothing currently working to import, sell and maintain cars with Ford badges on them just change the logos on their clothing and the cars.

The U.K. consumer market isn't going to randomly reduce the number of vehicles it imports and sells every year just because one of these exporters can't compete with the others.

Ford cars could evaporate from the docks tomorrow and not only would no one in the U.K. even notice but the next day the docks would have more cars from another brand arriving to fill the gap.

The U.K. execs of Ford should have paid a little more attention to the writings of Charles Darwin.

And the U.K. should not be changing policy just to favour the weakest of the overseas manufacturers but letting them die and be replaced by superior competition.
The market demand would fill the gap from wherever. Ford may have the top selling model YTD, Puma, but only 7% share overall.

CivicDuties

4,980 posts

32 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
GeniusOfLove said:
To add some fact to this thrillingly unique and penetrating discussion on EVs...

There are a couple of ORA Funky Cats on BCA with a £16k Buy Now price, 3,053 miles on one and 4,430 on the other. Both six months old 48KWH First Edition models.

The press have pissed all over them (the same press who scoffed at Japanese cars in the 80s because they were "less interesting" than a Sierra) at their £32k+ RRP but that's comedy value for a 6 month old car.
They'll be lucky to get £16k at auction, they're retailing from £16,357.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202405029...

I'm a bit tempted, it would be a significant upgrade on my 30kwh Nissan Leaf.

FiF

44,299 posts

253 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
But if someone is perpetually having to use non domestic tariffs then they really shouldn't have bought an EV unless they doing such low mileage that the other savings compensate.

It raises the aspect that employers need to account for whether an employee has the ability to charge at night, on private land, using a discount tariff or whether they have no such ability as to force the latter into EV use to benefit the employer's ESG credentials is in reality a discrimination.
Employer's responsibility here is also a fair point.

Mammasaid

3,924 posts

99 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
GT9 said:
BricktopST205 said:
HGV's are decades away before they can electrified. Maybe the little 18 tonne puddle jumpers but not the full blown 44 tonne artics.
These guys are producing them now: https://trans.info/en/renaults-44-tonne-electric-t...
Volvo as well I think.
Daf also


DonkeyApple

55,911 posts

171 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
greenarrow said:
Just picking out two points from this post - first one. Yep, its screwed, screwed for the reason given and for the fact that idiotically it has culled the small and medium size ICE cars that have been its staple big passenger car sellers - Fiesta and Focus. Meanwhile Vauxhall seems to be doing ok. Its Corsa is everywhere on the roads thanks to picking up ex Fiesta buyers and actually offering an EV Corsa for those who want to make the BEV switch. Ditto Astra. It also shifts tons of Mokkas to suit all those peeps who used to buy a Zafira.

Second point, yep Ford are losers now. They have chucked away their core branding in the UK and furthermore, the USP which helped them in the 90s, 00s, namely the good to drive, deft handling and riding feeling of their bread and butter cars has gone, with the possible exception of their popular Puma crossover. Bye bye nippy, chuckable Fiesta/Focus, hello big fat and overweight Mustang EV. Surely it was not beyond Ford to have sold a BEV Fiesta or Focus?!

Back to the fuel station point, at the end of the day its personal choice. I am sure it is possible for most people to find a charger mid trip home and have a quick 20 mins top up, but if they would rather keep their old ICE car for now knowing they don't need to refuel it on a 400 mile round trip then that's their prerogative. People need to stop telling others how to run their lives!
I suspect Renault, who despite being of a similar brand standing to Ford have made a good showing with their EV offering to date, will do rather well with their 5 EV over the coming years. They've also managed to develop the Dacia brand into being something of merit. Ford once dominated the streets of the U.K. but they've failed to make it onto people's driveways and that's where almost the entire EV market is. If people don't want your product on their driveway then you're going to struggle to sell EVs for the next decade. Folk don't mind Dacias, Kia's, Renaults or even Tesla's on their driveways but it's not their fault they just don't want Fords there. That's Ford's fault. Their failure. Their problem. Ford is a corporation born in capitalism, that has existed for over 100 years as an emblem of capitalism. They can now enjoy the red hot poker up the 'arris of capitalism.

If Ford's U.K. strategy to sell EVs to the U.K. consumer isn't working then they need to pay to change that strategy to one that does, need to pay to change their failed executives or just go away. It's not the responsibility of the U.K. taxpayer or consumer to underwrite the failures of overseas corporate enterprises.


sturge7878

80 posts

2 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
sturge7878 said:
Why would they sell cars at a loss? Suspect the legislation will most likely be amended at some point anyway or petrols will start selling above list due to a lack of availability.
What's the loss to the U.K. if we stop importing Ford badged cars from Germany?

The U.K. employees in Ford clothing currently working to import, sell and maintain cars with Ford badges on them just change the logos on their clothing and the cars.

The U.K. consumer market isn't going to randomly reduce the number of vehicles it imports and sells every year just because one of these exporters can't compete with the others.

Ford cars could evaporate from the docks tomorrow and not only would no one in the U.K. even notice but the next day the docks would have more cars from another brand arriving to fill the gap.

The U.K. execs of Ford should have paid a little more attention to the writings of Charles Darwin.

And the U.K. should not be changing policy just to favour the weakest of the overseas manufacturers but letting them die and be replaced by superior competition.
It’s not just Ford though is it. Selling at a loss is simply not a viable long term strategy. Ford and Stellantis may currently be the most vocal, but you can guarantee they won’t be the only manufacturers to start restricting their supply if they start incurring losses due to some badly designed legislation.

The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.


GT9

6,879 posts

174 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
Further to my previous post, the trend for average distance travelled annually supports the idea that range anxiety is predominantly a manufactured concern.
COVID obviously skews the data, regardless, when you are dealing with a technology solution to a transportation challenge where the average person is not exceeding 6000 miles per annum, or less than 20 miles per day, arming every single car with the ability to travel 700 miles in one go seems ridiculous.



Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64e...

romft123

427 posts

6 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
GT9 said:
BricktopST205 said:
At least it explains why the standard of driving on our roads is so poor!
Not really.
On any given day in the UK, just 1% of car journeys are over 200 miles.
You are seeking to put the edgiest of edge cases front and centre, and yet its is statistically irrelevant, in the extreme.

Hopefully the post above will now put a stop to the silly....OH I drive 300 miles everyday , brigade.
Next off street parking. In my town/village of just 50 houses, everyone has a garage/parking on their land/drive except 5 and they park on the road outside their house. London etc sways the % the other way, but then again in London, how many dont even own a car....

And in response to some. Dont want an EV. DONT. BUY. ONE. Its that simple. And NO I dont own one.

Downward

3,674 posts

105 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
740EVTORQUES said:
BricktopST205 said:
braddo said:
Let's say you have a driveway and so you can plug your car in at home whenever you want. How many times a year would you need more than 200 out of that 370-490 mile range?
I pick up my mother every 3 months from the airport that is over 200 miles there and back. She can only really go to Stansted because of her location.

2 hours there. 5 minutes to stretch my legs at the drop and drive and straight back home.

It is very easy to rack up mileage when living out in the sticks as everything is far away.
Would an extra 15 minutes to charge be the end of the world?
I’d like to fly that airline !
Assume it’s not Bham airport where it’s upto an hour from landing to actually getting out of the place !
Plus all the roads are covered by cameras with a no stopping or waiting or you’ll be fined warning so the only way is to stop 10 mins away.

braddo

10,630 posts

190 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
GT9 said:
Not really.
On any given day in the UK, just 1% of car journeys are over 200 miles.
You are seeking to put the edgiest of edge cases front and centre, and yet its is statistically irrelevant, in the extreme.

Interesting. That graph appears to show (approx.):

50-100 miles is less than 4%
100-200 miles is 1.75%
200+ miles is 0.5%

Obviously the proportions will be different in holiday periods but even then, 200+ mile journeys will only be a few percent.

LivLL

10,927 posts

199 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
GT9 said:
Further to my previous post, the trend for average distance travelled annually supports the idea that range anxiety is predominantly a manufactured concern.
COVID obviously skews the data, regardless, when you are dealing with a technology solution to a transportation challenge where the average person is not exceeding 6000 miles per annum, or less than 20 miles per day, arming every single car with the ability to travel 700 miles in one go seems ridiculous.



Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64e...
Super, average distance. Meaningless when you need to do regular long trips and the car won’t make it.

GT9

6,879 posts

174 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
sturge7878 said:
It’s not just Ford though is it. Selling at a loss is simply not a viable long term strategy. Ford and Stellantis may currently be the most vocal, but you can guarantee they won’t be the only manufacturers to start restricting their supply if they start incurring losses due to some badly designed legislation.

The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.
And yet some of the more dynamic legacy manufacturers are ahead of the curve.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/united-kingdom/arti...

Adapt or die.

GT9

6,879 posts

174 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
LivLL said:
Super, average distance. Meaningless when you need to do regular long trips and the car won’t make it.
Which makes you an edge case, and you should stick with petrol or diesel for now.
It's not difficult.

Downward

3,674 posts

105 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
RayDonovan said:
Interestingly, I was looking at the used ID7s on AT and wondering who was going to buy one.

Looks to be a decent alternative to Tesla, but over £40k used and £50k new is going to be a tough sell away from company car drivers / business owners.
The interior makes the MG4’s look interesting !


Olivera

7,250 posts

241 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
The average person is also a cretin that's only ever lived within a few miles of where they were born biggrin

What's more pertinent is driving habits of upper income deciles, i.e. representative of PHers and those that enjoy motoring. In the real world people make choices that include very occasional but important activities, such as driving holidays and tours. Of course EVs can do this, but ICE is currently just better.

sturge7878

80 posts

2 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
GT9 said:
sturge7878 said:
It’s not just Ford though is it. Selling at a loss is simply not a viable long term strategy. Ford and Stellantis may currently be the most vocal, but you can guarantee they won’t be the only manufacturers to start restricting their supply if they start incurring losses due to some badly designed legislation.

The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.
And yet some of the more dynamic legacy manufacturers are ahead of the curve.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/united-kingdom/arti...

Adapt or die.
Saturation point, I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords…

Or they will just change the legislation, which I suspect is far more likely.