RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review
Discussion
As one of the few people on this thread that have looked, touch , felt and ridden in this car, I can say it’s an extremely well built and desirable product. It will appeal in the same way a G wagon or an old Defender, new Bronco, Wrangler etc appeal but without the fashion baggage. I.e totally irrationally but in demand anyway. Add to this a superb engine and gearbox (again spoken as an owner of a car with the same engine). As i said, I suspect it will attract a crowd that may not use its off road capability. However, if that crowd can live the short comings of the Defender then this is still 20x better. And 40pc the price of a basic G. M
On reliability..I don’t see modern cars breaking down in the same way cars used to. So it’s probably 95pc less likely to do so but If it does then it’s likely to be an expensive fix I agree.
Here in the UAE I expect it to sell well. Though as stated , the lack of EV may make sales taper off in other markets.
Do I hate the owner..hell yes..he is clearly a two faced S.O.B that has caused the destruction of manufacturing in the U.K..do I care it’s built in France and not UK ..a little but not enough to put me off from buying one.
On reliability..I don’t see modern cars breaking down in the same way cars used to. So it’s probably 95pc less likely to do so but If it does then it’s likely to be an expensive fix I agree.
Here in the UAE I expect it to sell well. Though as stated , the lack of EV may make sales taper off in other markets.
Do I hate the owner..hell yes..he is clearly a two faced S.O.B that has caused the destruction of manufacturing in the U.K..do I care it’s built in France and not UK ..a little but not enough to put me off from buying one.
Edited by Paracetamol on Thursday 24th February 01:47
nsa said:
soxboy said:
Listening to a podcast the other day, the diesel engine issues seem to be oil circulation/ starvation due to the way the police use them, i.e. idle for long periods then caned. I can’t see this happening on a Grenadier.
Which podcast is this please? Always looking out for new listening options.
From what I’ve seen and heard I expect it will be well engineered.
The thing is 80% of new car buying decisions are based on the aesthetics. Sure, the car has to be fit for purpose E.g. big enough, safe, economical etc. but to even make it to the shortlist people have to like the exterior styling and ‘see’ themselves in it. It is largely a subconscious process.
To my eyes, the Grenadier is an awkward, ugly looking car without the charm or character of a classic Defender or G Wagon.
It’s a bit like the David Brown Speedback GT thing. It’s close to a DB5 but not nearly close enough and so it looks wrong. This is because the DB5 shape is so familiar. In the same way, everyone knows what a classic Defender looks like and the Grenadier doesn’t improve the aesthetic.
But I guess looks are entirely subjective and perhaps enough people will like it. I have no idea.
Ok, this is not applicable to commercial sales - these are based on hard-nosed financial considerations- largely massive initial discounts to build up their parc.
In other words a loss leading or at least profit neutral start to get cars ‘out there’.
But 25,000 cars a year is an awful lot. I think they will need significant private sales to maintain their volume targets in years 2, 3 and beyond.
Forget Ratcliffe for a moment - there’s some good people working on the Grenadier project and I wish them well but it certainly looks like a challenge.
The thing is 80% of new car buying decisions are based on the aesthetics. Sure, the car has to be fit for purpose E.g. big enough, safe, economical etc. but to even make it to the shortlist people have to like the exterior styling and ‘see’ themselves in it. It is largely a subconscious process.
To my eyes, the Grenadier is an awkward, ugly looking car without the charm or character of a classic Defender or G Wagon.
It’s a bit like the David Brown Speedback GT thing. It’s close to a DB5 but not nearly close enough and so it looks wrong. This is because the DB5 shape is so familiar. In the same way, everyone knows what a classic Defender looks like and the Grenadier doesn’t improve the aesthetic.
But I guess looks are entirely subjective and perhaps enough people will like it. I have no idea.
Ok, this is not applicable to commercial sales - these are based on hard-nosed financial considerations- largely massive initial discounts to build up their parc.
In other words a loss leading or at least profit neutral start to get cars ‘out there’.
But 25,000 cars a year is an awful lot. I think they will need significant private sales to maintain their volume targets in years 2, 3 and beyond.
Forget Ratcliffe for a moment - there’s some good people working on the Grenadier project and I wish them well but it certainly looks like a challenge.
Tayne said:
The double cab pickups are cheaper and whilst they MAY be less accomplished at the extreme end of things in the dirt, most people working the land don't really require ultimate off road ability. That may seem odd but the more time you spend driving the Rubicon to get across your property the less time you have to tend to sheep, cattle, pheasants or fight cabbage stem flea beetle. Sooner or later it becomes an easy choice to put a blade on the tractor and grade that track.
Agreed. I made a similar point earlier. Why not buy a Hilux or Mitsubishi?I looked on Google Maps and Street View at some of the places around the world that I visited 20 years ago and it appears that some of the main routes that were rough dirt and stone, requiring rugged vehicles, have now been hard-surfaced.
MC Bodge said:
I looked on Google Maps and Street View at some of the places around the world that I visited 20 years ago and it appears that some of the main routes that were rough dirt and stone, requiring rugged vehicles, have now been hard-surfaced.
Even when they were rough dirt and stone you didn't need much off road ability and the comfort advantages of independent suspension were well worth any loss in ability.Bill said:
MC Bodge said:
I looked on Google Maps and Street View at some of the places around the world that I visited 20 years ago and it appears that some of the main routes that were rough dirt and stone, requiring rugged vehicles, have now been hard-surfaced.
Even when they were rough dirt and stone you didn't need much off road ability and the comfort advantages of independent suspension were well worth any loss in ability.Although "normal" cars often broke down -usually foreigners in rental cars.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 24th February 09:06
F20CN16 said:
nsa said:
soxboy said:
Listening to a podcast the other day, the diesel engine issues seem to be oil circulation/ starvation due to the way the police use them, i.e. idle for long periods then caned. I can’t see this happening on a Grenadier.
Which podcast is this please? Always looking out for new listening options.Leaving aside the politics, I think it deserves greater respect on this forum. Many of us will have heard uninformed pub bores nattering about this and the need for more basic off readers with an industrial workhorse and practical air, as opposed to aspirational or lifestyle artefacts often used as a photographers props for glossy country magazines awash with adverts for three hundred pound shoes and boutique hotels.Surely four blokes in a pub who have actually walked the walk on their dream are to be applauded.
Surely the fact that a group of blokes in a pub have walked the walk with this one should be greatly applauded. So many amateur car ambitions start as vanity projects and go no further. I also like the look of it.
Surely the fact that a group of blokes in a pub have walked the walk with this one should be greatly applauded. So many amateur car ambitions start as vanity projects and go no further. I also like the look of it.
Edited by Lester H on Thursday 24th February 12:43
Edited by Lester H on Thursday 24th February 12:45
Lester H said:
Leaving aside the politics, I think it deserves greater respect on this forum. Many of us will have heard uninformed pub bores nattering about this and the need for more basic off readers as opposed to photographers props for glossy country magazines Surely the fact that a group of blokes in a pub have walked the walk with this one should be greatly applauded. So many amateur car ambitions start as vanity projects and go no further. I also like the look of it.
I think calling them a 'group of blokes in a pub' is a bit mis-representative.What they're done is taken an old design that had a BMW straight 6 in it, and, erm...
Kept it looking the same, with a different BMW straight 6 in it.
sisu said:
NGK210 said:
A Land Cruiser or a Rivian R1S, please..
These are going to demolish the SUV market as have the Teslas when everyone was walking away from 5 door fastbacks.
The Grenadier is so out of step you wonder if they are going to put a Walnut veneer dash, Smiths guages and a Pioneer stereo as an option.
It is the 4x4 version of a Bristol.
sisu said:
The Grenadier is so out of step you wonder if they are going to put a Walnut veneer dash, Smiths guages and a Pioneer stereo as an option.
It is the 4x4 version of a Bristol.
This is excellent. I have a deposit down and I will be sad if the dash is only veneer - I am hoping for solid walnut!!It is the 4x4 version of a Bristol.
Lester H said:
Leaving aside the politics, I think it deserves greater respect on this forum. Many of us will have heard uninformed pub bores nattering about this and the need for more basic off readers as opposed to photographers props for glossy country magazines Surely the fact that a group of blokes in a pub have walked the walk with this one should be greatly applauded. So many amateur car ambitions start as vanity projects and go no further. I also like the look of it.
Its hard to look beyond this just being the result of the standard group of blokes in a pub boring on about the need for more basic off roaders and one of them happening to be a billionaire. How many of said groups will in the cold light of day actually put their money where their mouth is and buy one...I can see the first few runs off the production line being spoken for by 'powerfully built' men with secret fantasies of being james bond, pre-production deposits for bragging rights in said pubs. Post this first flush its difficult to see a segment of any discernable size that doesn't have a more lux/cheaper/lower emission/less complicated/more specific (military) vehicle already available to it. Who knew this niche better than JLR and they walked from it on the back of sales volumes.
As already mentioned Jim comes across as a ruthless operator, which is why is offshoring of production is a shortsighted and odd call - one of the clearer automotive products with a majority purchasing base driven by emotional/nostalgia and 'patriotic' decisions. French production is not going to help.
thewarlock said:
I think calling them a 'group of blokes in a pub' is a bit mis-representative.
What they're done is taken an old design that had a BMW straight 6 in it, and, erm...
Kept it looking the same, with a different BMW straight 6 in it.
Umm, apart from a small number made in South Africa, since when did a Defender have a BMW straight-6?What they're done is taken an old design that had a BMW straight 6 in it, and, erm...
Kept it looking the same, with a different BMW straight 6 in it.
More have probably been fitted with LS crate engines, but you'd hardly call them a Defender engine.
CoupeKid said:
Isn’t it almost impossible to sack people in France?Yes, horrendously difficult.
I think Mercedes have pulled a fast one on Radcliff by potentially saddling him with the costs of shutting down the French factory if this bombs rather than them having to do it. Potentially yes, although we do not know the terms agreed by Ineos or the French government.
I used to think this vehicle was a good idea but I’ve read enough on PH to have my mind changed. Still wish the guy well though.
My thoughts.I think Mercedes have pulled a fast one on Radcliff by potentially saddling him with the costs of shutting down the French factory if this bombs rather than them having to do it. Potentially yes, although we do not know the terms agreed by Ineos or the French government.
I used to think this vehicle was a good idea but I’ve read enough on PH to have my mind changed. Still wish the guy well though.
cidered77 said:
F20CN16 said:
nsa said:
soxboy said:
Listening to a podcast the other day, the diesel engine issues seem to be oil circulation/ starvation due to the way the police use them, i.e. idle for long periods then caned. I can’t see this happening on a Grenadier.
Which podcast is this please? Always looking out for new listening options.Ingegnere Enzo said:
I have faith in the concept and paid my deposit.
After seeing how JLR had missed the requirement for a genuine off roader, there is little choice if you want to use it off road seriously.
I live in north of Scotland where all current JLR products fail, gearboxes, electrics, engines, you name it, it breaks up here!
The concept is sound, the engineering impressive but best of all is the access to full workshop manuals so no expensive dealer ripoffs
It's statements like this that really confuse me. Surely any person with an interest in cars understands what's already be pointed out by me and others? All of those things you mention that fail on JLR products are literally the same components on the Grenadier. There's such a small pool of suppliers and parts these days that you're reliant on the engineering of the suppliers. After seeing how JLR had missed the requirement for a genuine off roader, there is little choice if you want to use it off road seriously.
I live in north of Scotland where all current JLR products fail, gearboxes, electrics, engines, you name it, it breaks up here!
The concept is sound, the engineering impressive but best of all is the access to full workshop manuals so no expensive dealer ripoffs
So in the case of the Grenadier, the gearbox, electrics and engines will be the same ones you'll find in a Land Rover. The gearbox is confirmed as being the ZF 8HP (same as is widely used in all current Land Rovers), the electric modules will most certainly be manufactured by the same suppliers who supply LR like Lear and the engines are complete BMW units which have their own reliability issues which are no different to anyone else. So what exactly have Ineos (or rather Magna) done that means those standard components are going to be more reliable?
Digga said:
CoupeKid said:
Isn’t it almost impossible to sack people in France?Yes, horrendously difficult.
I think Mercedes have pulled a fast one on Radcliff by potentially saddling him with the costs of shutting down the French factory if this bombs rather than them having to do it. Potentially yes, although we do not know the terms agreed by Ineos or the French government.
I used to think this vehicle was a good idea but I’ve read enough on PH to have my mind changed. Still wish the guy well though.
My thoughts.I think Mercedes have pulled a fast one on Radcliff by potentially saddling him with the costs of shutting down the French factory if this bombs rather than them having to do it. Potentially yes, although we do not know the terms agreed by Ineos or the French government.
I used to think this vehicle was a good idea but I’ve read enough on PH to have my mind changed. Still wish the guy well though.
Mercedes have given away a big liability and INEOS won't care if they have failed in terms of additional financial exposure. (My understanding is that that this is unique entity and not a subsidiary of any other part of the wider business?)
RacerMike said:
It's statements like this that really confuse me. Surely any person with an interest in cars understands what's already be pointed out by me and others? All of those things you mention that fail on JLR products are literally the same components on the Grenadier. There's such a small pool of suppliers and parts these days that you're reliant on the engineering of the suppliers.
So in the case of the Grenadier, the gearbox, electrics and engines will be the same ones you'll find in a Land Rover. The gearbox is confirmed as being the ZF 8HP (same as is widely used in all current Land Rovers), the electric modules will most certainly be manufactured by the same suppliers who supply LR like Lear and the engines are complete BMW units which have their own reliability issues which are no different to anyone else. So what exactly have Ineos (or rather Magna) done that means those standard components are going to be more reliable?
One hopes that they have understood that the priority is to keep moving when secondary systems go down, that they have specified clearly the acceptable failure rate, have reliable contracts to manage suppliers, that the software has been written with decent error trapping and troubleshooting.So in the case of the Grenadier, the gearbox, electrics and engines will be the same ones you'll find in a Land Rover. The gearbox is confirmed as being the ZF 8HP (same as is widely used in all current Land Rovers), the electric modules will most certainly be manufactured by the same suppliers who supply LR like Lear and the engines are complete BMW units which have their own reliability issues which are no different to anyone else. So what exactly have Ineos (or rather Magna) done that means those standard components are going to be more reliable?
Opening up the service and maintenance tasks will be a radical step for a modern vehicle producer; there's an old joke that old school manuals used to explain how to decoke an engine, where modern ones tell you to not drink the washer fluid. I'm happy to treat the engine and gearbox as a "black box", but I'd like the ability to fault trace to the point where it has to be the black box bits. As INEOS have said that genuine bits can be ordered by part number and expressed to the casualty, I'm still hopeful.
INEOS Automotive have said that Sir Jim Ratcliffe is customer No.1; as various people have said he can be unpleasant and intolerant of failure, hopefully the vehicle will be released in a fit state for use. My experience with a number of modern vehicles has not been positive.
Most of the issues I have seen and been told about on recent JLR products have been software related; good software is hard to write and harder to test, but reference back to what the customer desperately wants is always helpful.
loudlashadjuster said:
Umm, apart from a small number made in South Africa, since when did a Defender have a BMW straight-6?
More have probably been fitted with LS crate engines, but you'd hardly call them a Defender engine.
You just answered your own question.More have probably been fitted with LS crate engines, but you'd hardly call them a Defender engine.
Although you're right. I wouldn't call a LS crate engine a Defender engine.
Just like I wouldn't and didn't call the M52 a Defender engine. It's a BMW engine.
I don't dislike it...but that's because I like the Defender. They were fun. I never took mine off road, but it was an event just flying around. It was objectively s
t of course.
This is not a country crossing adventure vehicle, and if it's being advertised as one that's daft. It's a Defender built for the 90% of Defender drivers who bought into the idea, but suffered the cold, leaky, deafening interior as a result. It'll be a good, modern SUV with comparable off road ability to the latest LR's and Toyota's. It's got a fecking BMW engine for goodness sake - if they wanted it to be properly hardcore it'd have a simple Japanese turbo diesel. The talk of military variants is bonkers - just because it looks utilitarian doesn't mean it is.
t of course. This is not a country crossing adventure vehicle, and if it's being advertised as one that's daft. It's a Defender built for the 90% of Defender drivers who bought into the idea, but suffered the cold, leaky, deafening interior as a result. It'll be a good, modern SUV with comparable off road ability to the latest LR's and Toyota's. It's got a fecking BMW engine for goodness sake - if they wanted it to be properly hardcore it'd have a simple Japanese turbo diesel. The talk of military variants is bonkers - just because it looks utilitarian doesn't mean it is.
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