New Kitcar Design Sketches and Concepts
Discussion
slomax said:
dave de roxby said:
slomax said:
dave de roxby said:
slomax said:
dave de roxby said:
But in reality, I think if a designer has any intention of actually building a new car to enter the commercial kit car scene, then they are unlikely to be revealing much on here?
I think this is an important one to outline. I dont think this was meant as an "all new car" thread (although Italo, if i'm wrong, correct me). I think this is a thread for body kits/conversions for existing proven chassis like that of Stiggys and various 7's and the like, in a similar vein to the Epona, which was designed over a Locost chassis (IIRC).But even if it did, there is a distinction between someone eager to show off his/her design idea for a new set of automotive clothes and the entrepreneur who is intent on supplying something new to the market.
Good luck with your studies and I really think Coventry is a very good design school.
Looking forward to some of your sketches in this thread...
Cheers
Italo
singlecoil said:
slomax said:
Steve_D said:
fuoriserie said:
.......All my designs comply with regulations, they have to, otherwise it would make no sense as real kitcar concepts....
Italo
As I said I love the designs so criticising them is difficult.Italo
In the earlier design the body does not cover the wheels. The requirement is that the wheel is covered 30 degrees forward of the wheel CL and 50 degrees rearward. Also the body, or a mudguard, to the rear of the wheel must extend down to a point 150mm above the wheel CL.
Maybe we should have a real Open Source Design project in this forum, but then who is going to do the Design Brief? who will be supplyng the donors and compnets? who will be supplyng the money for the project...
In reference to buildable designs, all my rough sketches are buildable and I already know from the very beginning what components I will be using, but I wasn't going to make this thread a Car design build blog...but could be an idea for another thread in the future...
My idea, as stated earlier, was to have open discussions and feedback on Kitcar design ideas, by using for reference some of my old rough sketches, but wanted to involve everybody willing to show something similar...some have done so, but most aren't showing anything, so you're stuck with just a few of us for the time being.
Italo
rhinochopig said:
dave de roxby said:
[quote=rhinochopigSpeaking as an Ergonomist though, the interior/functionality of the car, i.e. the usability, is ultimately what sells it.
Take the Elise for example, Lotus must have lost thousands of sales because of the poor driver ergonomics. The design precludes anyone over 6'4 being able to drive one in comfort, and even shorter drivers are put off by the poor driver position. Remember Plato's review?
A good looking car, will get people interested, but it's how well it drives that generally seals the deal.
If you need any data as a staring point for your mock-up, PM me as I've use a full anthrop data-base for work.Take the Elise for example, Lotus must have lost thousands of sales because of the poor driver ergonomics. The design precludes anyone over 6'4 being able to drive one in comfort, and even shorter drivers are put off by the poor driver position. Remember Plato's review?
A good looking car, will get people interested, but it's how well it drives that generally seals the deal.
Thanks in advance
Italo
dave de roxby said:
Hi Italo!
I'm tempted ... but not just yet!
It would be nice to think that a succesful design and a real product could emerge from gentlemanly submissions and discussions on a thread like this. But unfortunately, experience of life and business tells me that it would be a recipe for disaster - too many sharks in the water!
However, during one part of my varied career, I ran a company which recruited teams of specialist engineers and technicians to be applied to projects in, let's say, "difficult" environments. It had crossed my mind that, if one could really sort the wheat from the chaff, there is enough talent and people with resources communicating here on PH to form a team capable of designing and building a new car to take the market by storm! But this couldn't simply be done on a voluntary basis. It would need a properly set up company, participation by tendering talents, capital or resources in return for a shareholding and some careful management. But it's quite a thought.
I agree with your comment..I'm tempted ... but not just yet!
It would be nice to think that a succesful design and a real product could emerge from gentlemanly submissions and discussions on a thread like this. But unfortunately, experience of life and business tells me that it would be a recipe for disaster - too many sharks in the water!
However, during one part of my varied career, I ran a company which recruited teams of specialist engineers and technicians to be applied to projects in, let's say, "difficult" environments. It had crossed my mind that, if one could really sort the wheat from the chaff, there is enough talent and people with resources communicating here on PH to form a team capable of designing and building a new car to take the market by storm! But this couldn't simply be done on a voluntary basis. It would need a properly set up company, participation by tendering talents, capital or resources in return for a shareholding and some careful management. But it's quite a thought.
Edited by dave de roxby on Thursday 27th January 18:20
Just for some thought provoking ideas on design..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZMOKuTsJY4&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r_R-A-lSF0&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpkJUM52Q7s&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAp5_Qil9c&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO4r3CZx6G0&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAp5_Qil9c&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZMOKuTsJY4&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r_R-A-lSF0&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpkJUM52Q7s&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAp5_Qil9c&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO4r3CZx6G0&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAp5_Qil9c&fea...
Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 28th January 18:49
dave de roxby said:
Thanks for the links Italo! Very inspiring. Also tells me something about where you are coming from!
Keep up the good work.
As for me, I must become a more optimistic futurist!
Cheers, David.
You're welcome Dave...but being a little eccentric myself...Keep up the good work.
As for me, I must become a more optimistic futurist!
Cheers, David.
... I also like this guys comments...maybe a little out there, but he talks the talk.Worth watching a few times to let his ideas sink in....
Cheers
Italo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9M-bd-XdAw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnwtiBoPtyc&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZOpBrYCgzQ&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tITG_kX5Toc&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzOub_rGWKE&fea...
Are we afraid of the future?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEhm416KXYo&NR=...
Exhibit at the Design Museum in London,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGL73H81cU&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEhm416KXYo&NR=...
Exhibit at the Design Museum in London,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGL73H81cU&fea...
Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 29th January 10:24
Syd Mead is another great designer I like ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uYTkrmTC94
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTQtE-Yaa4w&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uYTkrmTC94
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTQtE-Yaa4w&fea...
dave de roxby said:
Colani really is something else!
But I wonder (if he could even be bothered to think about it!) what his grand plan would be for the kit-car market?
Seriously, I think that applying revolutionary, modernistic design to the kit car scene may be an interesting prospect but I doubt, in reality, it would ever produce any financially viable new models. Whilst most of us would like to think that we desire 'cutting edge' design and technology, the fact is that the average kit car buyer is a very conservative beast. He might want stupid bhp/tonne figures to brag about and a car that everybody will stare at but he generally obtains this through well used, tried and tested, even old-fashioned design and engineering. Why else would 30/40/50 year old 'seven', Cobra and even LMP/Can-Am designs still rule the roost?
On the few occasions when something really advanced in body design turns up, however striking it is, it usually fails to sell and quickly falls aside. This is often because what's underneath the flash doesn't live up to the looks.
But I feel that the kit car market is aching for something new. It just doesn't know what it is yet!
IMO, if it is to be successful as a business project, it will have to be fresh in design, enough to set it apart from the rest, hopefully pushing in a new direction, but not so outlandish that potential buyers reject it as a step too far.
In reference to Colani's design projects, this is the only know design that I know of that could resemble a Kitcar but I'm not sure it is:But I wonder (if he could even be bothered to think about it!) what his grand plan would be for the kit-car market?
Seriously, I think that applying revolutionary, modernistic design to the kit car scene may be an interesting prospect but I doubt, in reality, it would ever produce any financially viable new models. Whilst most of us would like to think that we desire 'cutting edge' design and technology, the fact is that the average kit car buyer is a very conservative beast. He might want stupid bhp/tonne figures to brag about and a car that everybody will stare at but he generally obtains this through well used, tried and tested, even old-fashioned design and engineering. Why else would 30/40/50 year old 'seven', Cobra and even LMP/Can-Am designs still rule the roost?
On the few occasions when something really advanced in body design turns up, however striking it is, it usually fails to sell and quickly falls aside. This is often because what's underneath the flash doesn't live up to the looks.
But I feel that the kit car market is aching for something new. It just doesn't know what it is yet!
IMO, if it is to be successful as a business project, it will have to be fresh in design, enough to set it apart from the rest, hopefully pushing in a new direction, but not so outlandish that potential buyers reject it as a step too far.
http://www.street-ray.de/home.aspx?lang=en
In reference to his ideas, I'm not sure all are feasible, but as you say, most kitcar buyers are conservative when buyng kitcars, but I believe things are moving forward just like the success of exo-skeleton cars has shown in the last 10yrs.
Exo-skeletons for the kitcar industry is something new and unique and this shows that if you can come up with somethig original, you will find a niche market, even if Sevens and Cobras will always be mainstream for most enthusiasts...
A new design will have to be more extreme in design if it has any chance to make it in the industry, but it would still have to offer the fun factor that most kitcar buyers are looking for in kitcars.
Personally I can see an lowcost coupe based on a seven replica chassis as an interesting concept or a lowcost mid-engine coupe or a fun and inexpensive kit, in the vein of the classic Moke/buggy.
dave de roxby said:
Yes, you're right about the now well established exo-skeleton fashion. That's certainly new, or at least a new twist on the sporting niche.
This is only an opinion but, talking of niches, I think any ground-breaking new car can actually create a new niche and swell the market, rather than take a slice of the existing market. Also, do you think there has been a shift in the basic reasons why people buy kit-cars (or the uses they put them to) over recent years.
I have no figures to back this up but I sense a shift towards more performance/competition type cars rather than the (relatively) more practical, day-to-day road cars. Maybe the increasing availability of 'track-day' facilities is responsible for this?.
Talking of figures, I have often wondered if any valid research and analysis has ever been done on the actual size, turnover, profits etc of the kit-car market as a whole. A bit like the classic car scene, the kit-car industry must form a small but quite significant part of our economy now. Successive governments have always promised new support for small businesses but I never see anything to specifically stimulate these two sections of the market. All I see is ever tighter legislation, imposing limits on design and affordability - IVA, emmissions, registrations, scrap-yards parts, road tax etc etc. For instance, I'm sure a simple advance in the 'tax-exempt' date cut-off, now frozen for many years, could give some cost-effective support for both the classic and certain parts of the kit-car industries.
Yes there has been a significant shift towards trackday cars in the last 10yrs and in my opinion will be an increasing trend in the future.This is only an opinion but, talking of niches, I think any ground-breaking new car can actually create a new niche and swell the market, rather than take a slice of the existing market. Also, do you think there has been a shift in the basic reasons why people buy kit-cars (or the uses they put them to) over recent years.
I have no figures to back this up but I sense a shift towards more performance/competition type cars rather than the (relatively) more practical, day-to-day road cars. Maybe the increasing availability of 'track-day' facilities is responsible for this?.
Talking of figures, I have often wondered if any valid research and analysis has ever been done on the actual size, turnover, profits etc of the kit-car market as a whole. A bit like the classic car scene, the kit-car industry must form a small but quite significant part of our economy now. Successive governments have always promised new support for small businesses but I never see anything to specifically stimulate these two sections of the market. All I see is ever tighter legislation, imposing limits on design and affordability - IVA, emmissions, registrations, scrap-yards parts, road tax etc etc. For instance, I'm sure a simple advance in the 'tax-exempt' date cut-off, now frozen for many years, could give some cost-effective support for both the classic and certain parts of the kit-car industries.
Edited by dave de roxby on Monday 31st January 10:28
In reference to market research there was something done on paper, if I remember correctly it must have been in the late 90's or early 2000, but haven't seen anything updated since.
It seems like this is very sensitive information in the industry and very few are interested in sharing...I did have some old sales figures available, coming form the old magazine" Kitcar International"
There also was a research done on kitcar buying habits, maybe 2003-4, posted on PH somewhere, but can't rememebr where now...
, I can remember that for 70% of the kitcar enthusiast, the primary reason for buying a kit was to have a unique sportscar for the occasional weekend tour and 30% to have fun on the track.
I believe these figures have now shifted considerably towards trackday oriented kits and enthusiasts, especially whith the younger crowd, maybe 60& trackday and 40% touring ?
In reference to ground braking new designs in the kitcar industry, I believe that for for the time being I can't see anything new, but only an evolution of the exo-skeleton concept, with new materials and other.
Something new can come from new cars being scraped and finding new engine donors, maybe the first hybrid engines or eletrics by 2015-2017.
I also think that the microcar niche could become a viable niche, but haven't seen anything yet...
slomax said:
I think it is all about the perception Italo. Back I'n the day, the Lomax was considered a microcar. It's not even a particularly small vehicle!
I think, in general, the term microcar has become out of date. People don't want to own a microcar. From all of the ones I have seen, the tumblehome is quite extreme with the body rolling underneath. It's these kind of features that prospective buyers do not like, as it makes the car look very tall and unstable.
I think if the "microcar" was rebranded as a commuter car, or a commuter vehicle, it would be, not only easier to design, but easier to sell.
Now we get onto, what is a microcar? Is it a small vehicle? Or a vehicle with not much power? The grinnall scorpion is certainly small, as is the MEV atomic. But are they microcars? I suspect the answer is probably no. The Sylva jester?
Niall
Niall, I think, in general, the term microcar has become out of date. People don't want to own a microcar. From all of the ones I have seen, the tumblehome is quite extreme with the body rolling underneath. It's these kind of features that prospective buyers do not like, as it makes the car look very tall and unstable.
I think if the "microcar" was rebranded as a commuter car, or a commuter vehicle, it would be, not only easier to design, but easier to sell.
Now we get onto, what is a microcar? Is it a small vehicle? Or a vehicle with not much power? The grinnall scorpion is certainly small, as is the MEV atomic. But are they microcars? I suspect the answer is probably no. The Sylva jester?
Niall
Very good observation, to me a Microcar in mainland Europe is a Quadricycle and a Commuter car is what we call City Cars( ie. Toyota Aygo, Fiat Panda...)....
But you made me think if there are kitcars that with an updated design could double up as a Commuter/Citycar and a few do spring to mind, The Midas Gold, Mini Marcos, Mini Jem, Jimini....
Maybe a styling update could still find a niche for them ? I like the Midas and Mini Jem and with some modern gear and a design update you could have a unique retro design....
I believe that a few kits could and should be updated and would love to see an updated Probe 16 on a mid-engine chassis......
dmulally said:
Are you interested in this project ?
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