What will the turbos change exactly?
Discussion
So new turbo engines in 2014
I hear people saying that eeehhverything will change
But how?
Serious question.......I mean, I visualise the cars looking near enough identical with new engines you wont see but will sound perhaps less impressive and some engines will be a tad more effective than others...
Are they going to plumb the turbo intake into the floor to help suck the car to the ground or something...
edit: oh it also helps with packaging which is significant
I hear people saying that eeehhverything will change
But how?
Serious question.......I mean, I visualise the cars looking near enough identical with new engines you wont see but will sound perhaps less impressive and some engines will be a tad more effective than others...
Are they going to plumb the turbo intake into the floor to help suck the car to the ground or something...
edit: oh it also helps with packaging which is significant
Edited by dtrump on Sunday 19th May 23:54
WeirdNeville said:
very much doubt this. They've targeted the engine spec to give to 550Kw, the same as current output. I'd actually expect more bottom end and a flatter torque curve, with the lower rev limit. The cars will probably get faster, as they do year on year despite the technology to "limit" the increase in pace.
why ?yes, ers will help, but with the new gearboxes, why do you need a fatter torque curve and remember they also loose some significant revs
WeirdNeville said:
Well, Hers goes up from 60Kw to 120Kw, this is not insignificant.
But the turbos is all about area under the graph = total power output over the rev range. Whilst you can limit maximum power with air flow restrictors, so long as the engine can take it you can use the turbo to disproportionately boost the lower end of the rev range, giving a more flexible engine. Loss of revs is no problem if the engine is making the same or more power at the top end anyway, you just gear accordingly.
Overwhelmingly though I don't think the cars will be slower owing to the ability of F1 engineers to overcome most technical challenges to deliver cars that get faster and faster year on year. So long as they're allowed mechanical grip and downforce, the cars will be as fast or faster than they are this year.
with the current farce with tyres, can';t see that happening..But the turbos is all about area under the graph = total power output over the rev range. Whilst you can limit maximum power with air flow restrictors, so long as the engine can take it you can use the turbo to disproportionately boost the lower end of the rev range, giving a more flexible engine. Loss of revs is no problem if the engine is making the same or more power at the top end anyway, you just gear accordingly.
Overwhelmingly though I don't think the cars will be slower owing to the ability of F1 engineers to overcome most technical challenges to deliver cars that get faster and faster year on year. So long as they're allowed mechanical grip and downforce, the cars will be as fast or faster than they are this year.
also, they will be fuel flow restricted, not air, so yes, they will be stuck at a power level that's probably not very rev-dependent (think flat power graph) and along with the new 8 speed gearbox kind of make all this irrelevant.
The role of the engine will greatly increase - now with the current homologation the engines are all the pretty much the same, with the way the energy recovery wll work and the large array of options of how to run the engine there's a lot more ways to get it wrong and I'm expecting the Merc powered teams to have the advantage here
so I think the cars will get faster ( in a straight line at least) as there'll be less aero with more torque and a lot more variability on pace depending on how good the energy reocvery strategies are
so I think the cars will get faster ( in a straight line at least) as there'll be less aero with more torque and a lot more variability on pace depending on how good the energy reocvery strategies are
have to ask, have you read the engine regs?
how are these new ones going to be different (from each other)?
you might want to gander over here and take a read: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/EBD2ABC94...
how are these new ones going to be different (from each other)?
you might want to gander over here and take a read: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/EBD2ABC94...
350Matt said:
The role of the engine will greatly increase - now with the current homologation the engines are all the pretty much the same, with the way the energy recovery wll work and the large array of options of how to run the engine there's a lot more ways to get it wrong and I'm expecting the Merc powered teams to have the advantage here
so I think the cars will get faster ( in a straight line at least) as there'll be less aero with more torque and a lot more variability on pace depending on how good the energy reocvery strategies are
Just curious, but why is it assumed that Merc will have the advantage? so I think the cars will get faster ( in a straight line at least) as there'll be less aero with more torque and a lot more variability on pace depending on how good the energy reocvery strategies are
WeirdNeville said:
Well it makes no mention of compressor or turbine geometry for starters - there's a huge range of variability there!
not really no...think about it, no variable geometry/nozel/etc., all the engines are targeting the same airflow targets, they have the same engine geometry with no variable valve lift/timing, just how many 'right' sized turbine designs are there going to be?
Scuffers said:
not really no...
think about it, no variable geometry/nozel/etc., all the engines are targeting the same airflow targets, they have the same engine geometry with no variable valve lift/timing, just how many 'right' sized turbine designs are there going to be?
There won't much variation in compressor and turbine wheels. Merc are having issues blowing turbos up at the moment, a new gas stand has just been commissioned at Brixworth to try and get the problems solved quickly.think about it, no variable geometry/nozel/etc., all the engines are targeting the same airflow targets, they have the same engine geometry with no variable valve lift/timing, just how many 'right' sized turbine designs are there going to be?
RobGT81 said:
There won't much variation in compressor and turbine wheels. Merc are having issues blowing turbos up at the moment, a new gas stand has just been commissioned at Brixworth to try and get the problems solved quickly.
and I bet that's more to do with packaging and materials than anything else.Surely the good thing about this change is we'll see a much greater difference in the performance of engines. The current V8 engine regs have been largely static for several years, and consequently there's little between them. We'll hopefully have an interesting scenario next year with some noticeably engines better thna others (be it from a performnace or relaibility perspective) which could shake up the field quite a bit.
CaptainSensib1e said:
We'll hopefully have an interesting scenario next year with some noticeably engines better thna others (be it from a performnace or relaibility perspective) which could shake up the field quite a bit.
Maybe.. the rules are still quite strict about what they can and can't do with the engines. Its no where near as open or as interesting at the WEC engine rules.EDLT said:
They will just turn the boost down and trundle around at half power to save tyres 
Barcelona 2013Alonso 1h 39m 16.6s - 4 pit stops
2012
Maldonado 1h 39m 09.1s - 3 pit stops
2011
Vettel 1h 39m 03.3s - 4 pit stops
So a total of 7.5 seconds slower than last year over 66 laps or 0.11 seconds per lap. You're right, they're so slow they're almost going backwards.
I do hope I am wrong, but I think that the 100kg of fuel will also limit total power available over the race. The power for the race is stored in the fuel, not the engine, or KERS. Logically the most efficient engine will have an advantage. 30% less fuel must make a difference. Qually times should be as fast though.
Perhaps this year's Pirelli tyres were designed to get fans used to seveirely resource limited races.
Perhaps this year's Pirelli tyres were designed to get fans used to seveirely resource limited races.
VladD said:
I assume there will be no limit on the number of turbos available during the year?
I'll also be interested to see what new discovered turbo technology will feed back to road cars.
IIRC the turbo is considered part of the powertrain, as the new regs class it, and therefore they are limited to 8 per year.I'll also be interested to see what new discovered turbo technology will feed back to road cars.
Very little new will be found to feed back to road cars, as road car turbo technology is already way in front of what they allowing the to use, i.e. banned variable geometry and nozzle's.
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