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GC8

9,525 posts

59 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
Frix said:
JulianHJ said:
GC8 said:
The days when a constable had to account for drawing his truncheon (and fill in a form) seem to be long passed.
Use of force forms have to be completed for anything other than compliant handcuffing in my force.
I am wondering when any of these people longing for yesteryear had any experience of the process of policing. As if filling in a form is the only adequate control measure. Never mind the fact that I'll have to account for it when the unfortunate recipient of the unnecessary level of violence makes the inevitable complaint. Perhaps GC8 and whatever that troll is called should ask for a ridealong (preferably for a few weeks) and discover that they know nothing about how the job is done. Just an idea obviously. I don't expect it to happen lest the bubble is burst.
All your petulant post shows is that you have singularly failed to understand my post.

Im not 'longing for yesteryear', I am simply wishing that some of yesteryears policing values had been retained - not too hard for you to grasp, surely.

The fact that Im not happy about paramilitary style dress, surly attitudes and a perceived over-keeness to draw batons and spray CS gas does not make me a troll.

ajstephe

1,182 posts

74 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
GC8 said:
I am simply wishing that some of yesteryears policing values had been retained
Maybe if some of yesteryears traditional values and morals were retained by certain members of the public. The attitude of a lot of people we deal with is 'It's someone elses problem'.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people didn't go tooled up with knives and weapons in the good ol' days in comparison with today.

Edited by ajstephe on Wednesday 27th June 12:33

XCP

10,477 posts

97 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
I cannot understand why anyone would want to return to the levels of police violence that were exhibited in the past. I go back over 30 years and there was much more violence perpetrated by the police then than now. Many of them were violent lazy racist and sexist.
And from what I gleaned from older colleagues it was worse in the 60's and before. Even if they did have to submit a duty report when they drew their truncheon.

GC8

9,525 posts

59 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
Accepted.

0000

9,319 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
XCP said:
0000 said:
It takes orders of magnitude longer to strike someone than pull a trigger.
The damage is a lot worse though.
I have seen clothing fibres pushed into skin where a hard baton strike ( and there is no other type) has taken place. And that is just on the surface.
Much much more unpleasant than Cs or Taser.
Works for me.
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Frix

607 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
Where have I called you a troll? At least I bothered to read your post properly. As demonstrated you don't seem to have any idea on how the job is done and are looking for things to be retained which have been.

GC8

9,525 posts

59 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
You lumped me in with a troll and said that a ride-along would burst our bubble.

Frix

607 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
I'm the petulant one?

Citizen09

629 posts

40 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
0000 said:
XCP said:
0000 said:
It takes orders of magnitude longer to strike someone than pull a trigger.
The damage is a lot worse though.
I have seen clothing fibres pushed into skin where a hard baton strike ( and there is no other type) has taken place. And that is just on the surface.
Much much more unpleasant than Cs or Taser.
Works for me.
What's your stance on the risks that police officers should be exposed to?

I've got to be in touching distance to strike somebody with a baton, or within 3 metres or so for effective use of an incapacitant spray. I can be a few metres further away (and safer) if I'm using a taser.

If I'm within touching distance of a man armed with a knife, then he's within touching distance of me.

0000

9,319 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
That's a natural deterrent to using a baton which I view as a positive in ensuring it's used only when necessary.

Zeeky

1,717 posts

81 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
La Liga said:
...It doesn't argue for it, it's simply not relevant as they represent an 'inevitable' minority of events in the grand scheme of things....There can also be delays when a TASER-trained officer is required to attend an incident do to the level of threat someone poses. Officers don't want to have to wait to respond whilst people are at risk.
On that basis all police officers should carry firearms. My point is that the if the situations where tasers are used are relatively rare, as is the situation with firearms then all police officers do not need to be armed with them. The delays are something that we tolerate because of what level or type of weapons is acceptable to the public. The fact that police officers abuse and misuse their power is primarily a reason to deal with those individuals but it is also a fact that is relevant to what is acceptable to the public when it comes to arming the police as a whole.







La Liga

760 posts

25 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
Firearms are a different matter as they are lethal. Also, the probability of needing a firearm is very small compared to Taser. The justification for firearms is, IMO, outweighed by the likeliness of negligent discharges and accidents that greater deployment would likely result in.



ez64

76 posts

31 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
La Liga said:
Firearms are a different matter as they are lethal. Also, the probability of needing a firearm is very small compared to Taser. The justification for firearms is, IMO, outweighed by the likeliness of negligent discharges and accidents that greater deployment would likely result in.
Taser's can be lethal and just one exposure can do untold damage to the body. Then again you have to think of the untold harm some nutter can do to the public or officer if they have to physically restrain someone who can resist.

And I still think I would rather take my chances with a taser than a bullet.

Edited by ez64 on Wednesday 27th June 16:28


Edited by ez64 on Wednesday 27th June 16:28

Derek Smith

16,034 posts

117 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
98elise said:
Post a picture of a picture of a Petty Officer with 12 years good conduct (3 stripes) and you are even closer. The police have always had military style uniforms, but military have different uniforms for different occasions. Their normal working dress is different to what the public see. In the public is form over function, and at work its function over form. All the police are doing is moving to something which is much more practical for every day use, which is sensible.

Same with firefighters, should they turn up to a fire in a smart tunic and shiny brass buttons (they do have one) or do they turn up in dirty well worn fire proof suit? Its not trumpton, its real life.

People who want their police to be armed with little more than stern words, and to be dressed in an uncomfortable uniform really need to get a grip on reality. Try doing a stint as a special perhaps.
I think you will find that the intention of the classic serge uniform was for the PC to use it as a suit when off duty. It was meant to be smart civilian clothing. The duty band - not now worn in most forces but I've got one from my days in the City of London police - was for the PC to remove it when off duty. It was, I was assured, recognised by the general public as such. There was an old saying in my force for when absence was the better part of valour: remove helmet and duty band and mingle [with the crowd].

The 'militerisation' of the police came about because most PCs were recruited from the forces. It was self fulfilling. Those in authority from the top were ex military and encouraged those below them to favour the same.

After WWI ex army were draughted in because of problems with police strikes.

Following WWII and conscription, the job of police officer was seen as attractive to those who enjoyed the military experience. When I joined in 1975 the job was moving away from the military aspects and towards a more civilian style. I still had to salute, stand up when an inspector or above came into the room, and stand to attention.

I was outside HQ one day when the commissioner of my force turned up. I opened the car door for him and, I thought, saluted rather smartly. However, as my right had was occupied by the door handle I'd used my left. Th commissioner pointed this out to me and said that I should not salute him as he wasn't wearing a hat so could not return it and, as I had no idea which arm to use, I should refrain from saluting him at any time.

For Chas and Di's wedding one inspector tried to get his shift to march towards their posts and most said they'd not marched since training school. It was, evidently, a shambles.

I was promoted to inspector in 1990 and was only saluted on the streets once. I returned it and told the officer never to do it again. And that was it.

As regards to rank, I'm not sure there is any rank of chief inspector in the army.

The sergeant's chevrons are similar to those in certain military ranks but the role of sergeant is entirely different to that of the army.

The police 'uniform' (there are a nubmer of different uniforms, so negating the literal meaning of the word, in all forces) has moved away dramatically from any military connection over the years. Cheapness now seems to be the main motivation rather than smartness. I hope it is more comfortable than the stuff I was forced to wear.

Thre has always been a dress uniform in the police. I was issued with 'Number ones', top hat, tails and high collar, but never got to wear it in anger. The current dress uniform is a mere shadow of its ancestors.

The police are not military in ethos. Each officer is responsible for his own actions and compliance with the law. He cannot be ordered to, for instance, shoot someone.

mph1977

4,795 posts

37 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
GC8 said:
The days when a constable had to account for drawing his truncheon (and fill in a form) seem to be long passed.

Id be happier to see police officers armed with tasers if I believed that they were held to account after their use, and this applies doubly so for CS/pepper spray.

Im broadly aware of the laws that apply to the use of force by police officers, but I suspect that they are rather like the laws which prevent me from speeding on the motorway...
ah the great irony ... " i want the police not to be tied to desks by the requirement to fill in forms " in one breath, but in the next " why don't they have to complete a thesis on the use of force every time they draw their baton or undo the safety strap on their spray ...

mph1977

4,795 posts

37 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
XCP said:
I cannot understand why anyone would want to return to the levels of police violence that were exhibited in the past. I go back over 30 years and there was much more violence perpetrated by the police then than now. Many of them were violent lazy racist and sexist.
And from what I gleaned from older colleagues it was worse in the 60's and before. Even if they did have to submit a duty report when they drew their truncheon.
but not if a DP tripped , slipped when being assisted into the van or when it was permissible for their to be flights of stairs between street level and custody ...

i wonder how many people would be willing to go back to pre-PACE custody and interview practices ...

Rovinghawk

1,991 posts

27 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
mph1977 said:
i wonder how many people would be willing to go back to pre-PACE custody and interview practices ...
This custody & interview practice is post-PACE.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-18032806

RH

J5

2,394 posts

55 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
Rovinghawk said:
This custody & interview practice is post-PACE.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-18032806

RH
I don't get your point... 2 persons acted unlawfully and were punished.

Rovinghawk

1,991 posts

27 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
J5 said:
I don't get your point... 2 persons acted unlawfully and were punished.
The point is that PACE has not made everything in the garden rosy.

RH

J5

2,394 posts

55 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
Rovinghawk said:
The point is that PACE has not made everything in the garden rosy.

RH
Edit: why am I bothering. Not worth the time or effort.

Edited by J5 on Wednesday 27th June 19:57

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