A320 down in Pakistan
Discussion
ric p said:
As a professional pilot, helicopter not airline but with airline mates, this tale of sadness is truely unbelievable. If you wrote it for a Human Factors training evolution, any sane individual would dismiss it as complete fabrication and impossible.
The fact that 2 idiots (not professional and barely pilots) can crash a completely serviceable £100m jet killing 100 people through arrogance, stupidity and inepitude demonstates that whatever checks you put in place, if your people are flawed, they will never be enough. I cannot think of another accident (use this term losely) that gets close in terms of opportunities to prevent. There are occasions when design or engineering deal the flight crew a bad or impossible hand, the Malaysian or Ethopian 737 crashes. Or poor training and supervision allow disaster, Air France mid Atlantic. Etc. But the full house?
They did not follow their own Operations Manual, the approved Approach Procedures, Airbus Flight Manual, the aircraft's warnings and air traffic controls hints then instructions.
There is no area in PIA or Pakistan Aviation Authority that escapes blame for the death of those poor individuals. I exclude the 2 pilots as our world is safer without them operating in it. Failure of PIA Training Dept, Flight Ops Dept, Compliance Dept for the repeated exceedences that signposted this disaster. Then the national aviation authority to ensure their national operator is safe and compliant. And a wider culture of patronage over ability and religious adherence over safety.
It also demonstrates how robust a modern commercial jet can be when so grossly mishandled, it will still try to fly and warn the crew even when those warnings are unheeded.
As a very small aside, the Indian banker who survived attached to his seat ejected from the crash, was the uncle of a child at my childrens' school. A couple of years ago he came to give a motivational talk (!) about living life to the full and taking all the chances life offers to you. These acts of stupidity by those who will never answer for their actions, in whatever profession, can often touch those even thousands of miles away.
That is a great post ric,The fact that 2 idiots (not professional and barely pilots) can crash a completely serviceable £100m jet killing 100 people through arrogance, stupidity and inepitude demonstates that whatever checks you put in place, if your people are flawed, they will never be enough. I cannot think of another accident (use this term losely) that gets close in terms of opportunities to prevent. There are occasions when design or engineering deal the flight crew a bad or impossible hand, the Malaysian or Ethopian 737 crashes. Or poor training and supervision allow disaster, Air France mid Atlantic. Etc. But the full house?
They did not follow their own Operations Manual, the approved Approach Procedures, Airbus Flight Manual, the aircraft's warnings and air traffic controls hints then instructions.
There is no area in PIA or Pakistan Aviation Authority that escapes blame for the death of those poor individuals. I exclude the 2 pilots as our world is safer without them operating in it. Failure of PIA Training Dept, Flight Ops Dept, Compliance Dept for the repeated exceedences that signposted this disaster. Then the national aviation authority to ensure their national operator is safe and compliant. And a wider culture of patronage over ability and religious adherence over safety.
It also demonstrates how robust a modern commercial jet can be when so grossly mishandled, it will still try to fly and warn the crew even when those warnings are unheeded.
As a very small aside, the Indian banker who survived attached to his seat ejected from the crash, was the uncle of a child at my childrens' school. A couple of years ago he came to give a motivational talk (!) about living life to the full and taking all the chances life offers to you. These acts of stupidity by those who will never answer for their actions, in whatever profession, can often touch those even thousands of miles away.
And thank you.
Like I say, tragic as the whole matter is, and so unavoidable as it was.
Your last paragraph is very poignant
Jim H said:
Another couple of things that have made me think a lot about this PIA incident, and others have commentated on it (Juan and Mentour YT). If they’d never had gone for the TOGA, it would have been an absolute unholy mess without doubt, but perhaps not such a drastic loss of life.
Modern airliners are pretty robust, the survival rate would have been much higher as long as the crash crews were on the ball, perhaps even a small chance of no fatalities at all.Unfortunately many of us have to fly these semi third world airlines for work. They service areas traditionally hard to get to and no decent airline flies into, you literally have no choice but to fly PIA and others.
As an owner of a engineering company that's global I've had a few awful experiences.
Worst was Air India, at the time had a pilot strike and had roped in many other 'pilots'. We flew out to a regional runway near Lucknow, clear weather and not a cloud in sight. We did two fly arounds (TWO!!) and finally slammed down. I figured it must be extremely windy as the landings, both attempted and final, were brutal with the plane pitching around wildly. But nope, as we walked down the stairs it was dead still, not a slight breeze.
I was shocked and relieved we got down in one piece.
This kind of stuff goes on all the time....
I'm off to regional South America next month, wish me luck.....
As an owner of a engineering company that's global I've had a few awful experiences.
Worst was Air India, at the time had a pilot strike and had roped in many other 'pilots'. We flew out to a regional runway near Lucknow, clear weather and not a cloud in sight. We did two fly arounds (TWO!!) and finally slammed down. I figured it must be extremely windy as the landings, both attempted and final, were brutal with the plane pitching around wildly. But nope, as we walked down the stairs it was dead still, not a slight breeze.
I was shocked and relieved we got down in one piece.
This kind of stuff goes on all the time....
I'm off to regional South America next month, wish me luck.....
robm3 said:
Worst was Air India, at the time had a pilot strike and had roped in many other 'pilots'. We flew out to a regional runway near Lucknow, clear weather and not a cloud in sight. We did two fly arounds (TWO!!) and finally slammed down. I figured it must be extremely windy as the landings, both attempted and final, were brutal with the plane pitching around wildly. But nope, as we walked down the stairs it was dead still, not a slight breeze.
I was shocked and relieved we got down in one piece.
I'd rather be with a crew who flew two go-arounds and got down off the third approach than one that refused to do a go-around, tried to virtually dive-bomb the airfield, manage to land halfway down tbe runway with the undercarriage up and decides then to go-around!I was shocked and relieved we got down in one piece.
a340driver said:
These incompetents were actually ones that held valid licenses. That tells you everything you need to know about PIA and the regulator.
Murderous clowns employed in Kyra' words:
"by a clique of powerful former military officers who hand out positions at the state-run airline to friends and patrons, while smoothing their passage through any checks and balances that may technically exist. It’s not clear what all these extra employees actually do — certainly they aren’t analyzing flight recorder data. But what is clear is that PIA is being used as a ladder for opportunistic individuals to pay their way into Pakistan’s political power structure, and flight safety is secondary. This cynical and transactional culture provides the perfect breeding ground for unscrupulous individuals who cheat on exams and ignore safety regulations with near-impunity."
That's a good summary.Murderous clowns employed in Kyra' words:
"by a clique of powerful former military officers who hand out positions at the state-run airline to friends and patrons, while smoothing their passage through any checks and balances that may technically exist. It’s not clear what all these extra employees actually do — certainly they aren’t analyzing flight recorder data. But what is clear is that PIA is being used as a ladder for opportunistic individuals to pay their way into Pakistan’s political power structure, and flight safety is secondary. This cynical and transactional culture provides the perfect breeding ground for unscrupulous individuals who cheat on exams and ignore safety regulations with near-impunity."
All of Pakistan's State industries are rotten to the core.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff