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Ozzie Osmond

12,060 posts

115 months

[news] 
Monday 23rd April 2012 quote quote all
AJS- said:
...decided it's actually quite effective, so why not use the same to further his aims?
Exactly like I said, dangerous nutter.

There are much better ways to get your point across than flying aircraft into the World Trade Centre or executing other people's children.

As a modest domestic experiment, try punching a small person in the face until they say they agree with you. Then get an independent person to ask their opinion the following day. My bet is they still won't sgree with you but you've made a new enemy for good measure.

Finlandia

Original Poster:

4,353 posts

100 months

[news] 
Monday 23rd April 2012 quote quote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
AJS- said:
...decided it's actually quite effective, so why not use the same to further his aims?
Exactly like I said, dangerous nutter.

There are much better ways to get your point across than flying aircraft into the World Trade Centre or executing other people's children.

As a modest domestic experiment, try punching a small person in the face until they say they agree with you. Then get an independent person to ask their opinion the following day. My bet is they still won't sgree with you but you've made a new enemy for good measure.
Basically there are two ways of getting a person with totally opposite views to start agreeing with you, scare them to it or bribe them to it.

AnotherClarkey

1,553 posts

58 months

[news] 
Monday 23rd April 2012 quote quote all
Finlandia said:
Basically there are two ways of getting a person with totally opposite views to start agreeing with you, scare them to it or bribe them to it.
Only if you can't demonstrate why your view is correct.

Finlandia

Original Poster:

4,353 posts

100 months

[news] 
Monday 23rd April 2012 quote quote all
AnotherClarkey said:
Finlandia said:
Basically there are two ways of getting a person with totally opposite views to start agreeing with you, scare them to it or bribe them to it.
Only if you can't demonstrate why your view is correct.
It doesn't matter how much one can demonstrate the views to be right or wrong, views totally opposite to each other are so far apart they will never be close enough to meet in an understanding.

AJS-

9,982 posts

105 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
AJS- said:
...decided it's actually quite effective, so why not use the same to further his aims?
Exactly like I said, dangerous nutter.

There are much better ways to get your point across than flying aircraft into the World Trade Centre or executing other people's children.
I agree, but one can see how it's not immediately obvious what they are.

Since Islamic terrorism has become a major threat, many western governments and organisations seem to have been going out of their way to avoid offending Islam. There has also been a tangible hostility to groups like EDL and the BNP who attempt to get their points across in the traditionally more acceptable channels. Given this, it seems rational to assume that the methods employed by Islamic fundamentalists have been successful.
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Colonial

9,731 posts

74 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
I'm looking forward to thread were we condone the actions of Al Qaeda under the guise of "understanding" their view.

Oh. No. Wait. That's bleeding heart left wing nonsense.

Carry on.

AJS-

9,982 posts

105 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
If that's directed at me, I'm not condoning it. I'm saying that the governments implied condoning of Al Quaeda's tactics have made such things more likely from other groups.

Colonial

9,731 posts

74 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
AJS- said:
If that's directed at me, I'm not condoning it. I'm saying that the governments implied condoning of Al Quaeda's tactics have made such things more likely from other groups.
Not directed at anyone in particular, but of the group it could be directed at potentially, you are the least likely to have it directed to you, if that makes any form of sense.

I'm not condoning either action. It is more a comment on how odd some threads get. Actions which directly target civilians rather than military personnel do get a very different treatment on this forum, depending on an individuals own bias.

Finlandia

Original Poster:

4,353 posts

100 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Colonial said:
AJS- said:
If that's directed at me, I'm not condoning it. I'm saying that the governments implied condoning of Al Quaeda's tactics have made such things more likely from other groups.
Not directed at anyone in particular, but of the group it could be directed at potentially, you are the least likely to have it directed to you, if that makes any form of sense.

I'm not condoning either action. It is more a comment on how odd some threads get. Actions which directly target civilians rather than military personnel do get a very different treatment on this forum, depending on an individuals own bias.
The lesson learnt here is one that should have been known already, an open political debate is much to prefer than total suppression and acts of violence. Understanding why this happened does not equal condoning it.

Colonial

9,731 posts

74 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Finlandia said:
The lesson learnt here is one that should have been known already, an open political debate is much to prefer than total suppression and acts of violence. Understanding why this happened does not equal condoning it.
I agree completely.

My question is not about shutting down this debate. It is why understanding this is fine, when understanding Muslim terrorists attacks is just bleeding heart left wing nonsense?

Finlandia

Original Poster:

4,353 posts

100 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Colonial said:
I agree completely.

My question is not about shutting down this debate. It is why understanding this is fine, when understanding Muslim terrorists attacks is just bleeding heart left wing nonsense?
I suppose it's easier to understand, and keep track of the reasons behind this attack, since they are fresh in history.

To even begin to understand AQ and keep track of their reasons one has to go a long way back in history, the various oil crisis, the birth of Israel and not least a total opposite view on culture, life and religion.

Countdown

6,338 posts

65 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Colonial said:
I agree completely.

My question is not about shutting down this debate. It is why understanding this is fine, when understanding Muslim terrorists attacks is just bleeding heart left wing nonsense?
Because some people sympathise with Bleivik's views on immigration/Islam and hence ask for "understanding" rather than the unconditional condemnation that such an atrocity would have attracted had it been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists.

The way I see it - AB is a racist . There are many like him who are racist to varying degrees. He appears to be suffering from issues of sanity which made him think his actions were acceptable and pushed him over the line that separates those who restrict their views to demonstrations/marches from those who believe mass murder is acceptable/desirable.

Shay HTFC

2,936 posts

58 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
Because some people sympathise with Bleivik's views on immigration/Islam and hence ask for "understanding" rather than the unconditional condemnation that such an atrocity would have attracted had it been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists.
Good point. Ironically though, some of the people saying Breivik is completely out of order would probably be the ones saying we should try and understand why the islamic fundamentalists did what they did.
It all just depends which side of the fence you sit on and which 'side' you think is being oppressed.

I think there is enough of a question about the role of immigration in the West that its no longer good enough to keep brushing the debate under the table. There seems to be an 'official' opinion that immigration and multiculturalism is a good thing. End of. And some people (Westerners) are going to get annoyed at that.

Much like America et al seem to be of the opinion that they have free right to go around the world getting involved in and basically taking control of whatever they want, and likewise, some people (non Westerners) are going to get annoyed at that.

Either way, there needs to be debate, not just the catch all situation of anyone disagreeing with immigration being called a "racist", or anyone saying America shouldn't get involved everywhere as being a bleeding heart liberal.

Edited by Shay HTFC on Tuesday 24th April 12:00

davepoth

19,862 posts

68 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Finlandia said:
I suppose it's easier to understand, and keep track of the reasons behind this attack, since they are fresh in history.

To even begin to understand AQ and keep track of their reasons one has to go a long way back in history, the various oil crisis, the birth of Israel and not least a total opposite view on culture, life and religion.
Keep going further back. The emnity between Islam and "Christianity" (the West) goes to the very beginning of Islam.

Asterix

16,367 posts

97 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Shay HTFC said:
Countdown said:
Because some people sympathise with Bleivik's views on immigration/Islam and hence ask for "understanding" rather than the unconditional condemnation that such an atrocity would have attracted had it been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists.
Good point. Ironically though, some of the people saying Breivik is completely out of order would probably be the ones saying we should try and understand why the islamic fundamentalists did what they did.
It all just depends which side of the fence you sit on and which 'side' you think is being oppressed.

I think there is enough of a question about the role of immigration in the West that its no longer good enough to keep brushing the debate under the table.
There does seem to be an opinion that immigration and multiculturalism is a good thing. End of. And some people are gonna get annoyed at that.

Much like America et al seem to be of the opinion that they have free right to go around the world getting involved in whatever they want, and likewise, some people are gonna get annoyed at that.

Either way, there needs to be debate, not just the catch all situation of anyone disagreeing with immigration being called a "racist", or anyone saying America shouldn't get involved everywhere as being a bleeding heart liberal.

Edited by Shay HTFC on Tuesday 24th April 11:57
History is littered with examples of what was seen as unreasonable and abhorent acts to force the population/authorities to think or act when the usual passive methods have failed or simply not listened too. I would imagine that women throwing themselves under racehorses, destroying property and setting off bombs was seen as outrageous but the suffragette movement felt it necessary to be that 'extreme' to force the issue. Is there a difference from a lone 'nutter' acting in such a manner or a 'movement'?

Edit: in no way am I condoning what happened - I'm far more interested in the 'why'.

Edited by Asterix on Tuesday 24th April 12:14

Shay HTFC

2,936 posts

58 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
I agree.

Did you ask 'why' when people flew into the World trade centre too?

Marf

22,907 posts

110 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Shay HTFC said:
I agree.

Did you ask 'why' when people flew into the World trade centre too?
I think the whole world asked why.

Finlandia

Original Poster:

4,353 posts

100 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
davepoth said:
Finlandia said:
I suppose it's easier to understand, and keep track of the reasons behind this attack, since they are fresh in history.

To even begin to understand AQ and keep track of their reasons one has to go a long way back in history, the various oil crisis, the birth of Israel and not least a total opposite view on culture, life and religion.
Keep going further back. The emnity between Islam and "Christianity" (the West) goes to the very beginning of Islam.
True, people have always been at war with others, be it over religion, land, minerals or whatever reason they can think of. As long as money matters and religion dictates we will never see true peace from war and terror.

Asterix

16,367 posts

97 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Shay HTFC said:
I agree.

Did you ask 'why' when people flew into the World trade centre too?
Of course - although islamic/religeous fundamentalism has more of a background thus the escalation, while extreme by their own standards, was probably going to happen at some point because passive methods either weren't listened to, didn't work or didn't even factor in their thinking.

caraddict

726 posts

13 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
I hate the fact that I couldn't reply to this thread before my first 14 days were over (stupid limit). Read fast through just about the whole thread and some stuff made me giggle, otherwise there are a lot of interesting takes on this tragic happening. Had a lot on my mind but it's mostly gone now...

I was in a big room on that day with windows partly opened because of the heat outside, and I felt (and heard) the explosion approx. 3-4 km. from the sight. The wind that was caused by the explosion entered the room, swept through it in half a second and disappeared. It was such a strange behavior for the wind that for a second my instincts were a little bit disturbed.
The noise was very strange too. It had traveled through hundreds of blocks and when it reached me it sounded like if you throw a wooden chair hard on a wooden floor - kind of hard to explain.
Still unbelievable that I have experienced a terrorist attack on my body, you only read about these things in the news right...?

I went to the grocery store about half hour later and noticed that something was wrong by looking at other peoples faces. Again, my instincts just knew that something wasn't right. I was using my iPod, continued listening to my music without caring much more, and went home to my parents. Suddenly I started getting phones after phones from other friends/families outside of Norway, and everyone was asking me if I was O.K.
I turned the TV on and could not believe what I saw. The very exact same road the explosion happened by, is the exact same road I use to drive home from whenever I am in the city to buy me kebab type of food. I got a little more disturbed and started checking out Twitter, Facebook, my mobile phone etc. to gather information about my family and friends and check if they were O.K.

So, just a few hours later A. B. Breivik started shooting on the island (Utøya). I'm an active Twitter user and used it as a source to understand more about the situation. Already after one - two hours it was reported that many Muslim girls and boys were harassed on the streets, shops and a buss (that I personally read about on Twitter). When this sort of stuff starts happening in Norway, you know people are REALLY frustrated!

Some of the younger Norwegians I followed on Twitter started asking for help to send someone at that island, because Breivik was hunting them down and they were afraid to call the people and get discovered by talking. We had no idea how serious it actually was - I was assuming that it probably was some kid who brought a an air gun with him or something else like that. Following the media didn't help because everyone knew as little as I did.
Many of those I connected with on Twitter died that day (4-5 kids), and it was devastating to discover over time who died and read the last happy tweets of those young girls and boys... It's true that Norway is a small country - I personally have two female friends who's got a brother and a sister that were on Utøya. I had met the sister of my friend once and it gave me chills, even worse when I saw her in the news explaining what happened.

I have never in my life experienced a tragedy which drags me down emotionally every damn time I'm reminded of it, so I'll make this part short as I'm getting all shaky again writing this stuff.
I was stuck in front of the TV for about 12 hours that Friday. I fell asleep watching TV with my family (mom, dad, and kid brother). The next day, I wake up... They had released a death toll estimate of 60 people... I was even more disturbed and couldn't believe it, and refused to believe it. My dad walked by, and I just stared at him - when he asked me what's wrong I told him about the estimated death toll, he too was left all speechless. There was nothing to say.

I continued watch TV that whole weekend (Friday - Sunday) as the photos of A. B. Breivik were revealed and everyone was furthermore shocked. I still remember how my hands were shaking all weekend as crying 15-17 year olds told their stories to the cameras. It wasn't until Monday that I decided to meet some friends of mine. Most of those who are close to me were not available so I joined some friends I had only met a few times before. We just sat at a café for hours and hours and kept talking about how unbelievable this was. It seemed no matter how much I talked about it wasn't enough - the weight on why shoulders didn't get any lighter. That's when I knew how big of a tragedy this was. You could also tell by how many beverages that where ordered that day - everyone was talking so much that they got thirsty all the time.

Still to this day, almost a year later, it's difficult to comprehend it all. I don't know how the media coverage in UK, but will follow this thread and try to paint an actual and correct picture of the person and the trial.


My own pictures from the following days:

The brown building in the background was the explosion target


Just behind the above brown building, there were shattered windows hundreds of meters across the sight:


People in line to sign official 22/7 guestbook:



Mayor of Oslo:


The leader of the youth labor party, who was a main target but escaped from the island:


HRH Prince of Norway:


Prime Minister of Norway:


After the Prime Minister speech, this is how we reacted:



My friends hanging up roses on the fence that blocked the closed roads where there were glass everywhere:


People as far as my eyes could see, literally, and in every direction:










Pictures I collected from the media the first week (or so). These are all random as it's very time consuming to arrange them + comment on each one. Keep in mind that the city only has 500.000 people, so the number of people that showed up on the 25th of July for support, it was just mindblowing. When we later started to sing together it felt unbelievable and I struggled to hold back tears.






































































Damn onions...



Sorry for the long post. It helps to talk about it.



Edit; Corrected some minor spelling mistakes.

Edited by caraddict on Wednesday 25th April 17:38

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